Water & Spirit

Music.

I'm Pastor Luke, I'm Pastor Cameron, and this is the Uncut Podcast, where we have

uncut and honest conversations about faith, life, and ministry.

This week, we're continuing on what's been sort of a, what is this, part three, sort of?

Yeah, three-ish, yep. Three-ish episodes where we've kind of been digging into sacraments, communion, baptism,

kind of our thoughts and theology as we're kind of talking through and wrestling through those.

All that Catholic stuff.

All that Catholic stuff. We've been accused of being Catholic as we're doing these podcasts,

which is okay on some level. On some level, we... You know, like, there is a point at which,

like, we do confess to be Catholic, and I say that tongue-in-cheek because I mean,

the Catholic and the... What is it? The little C Catholic?

Little C Catholic. Big C Catholic. Universal.

Yeah, so if you, I don't know, if you ever have heard or listened to, or heard any of

the creeds, right, you know, the creeds are these ancient belief statements of, I believe

in God the Father, Son Almighty, or, you know, God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven.

And Earth, and it goes through and lists all these things.

There's a modern worship song that's like, I believe in God the Father, right?

Like, yes, there's that song. I forgot about that song. I forgot about that song.

That's a really good song. It is a really good song because it's just a creed.

But at some point in most creeds, there's this line, which makes a lot of people bristle

and get uncomfortable, is the, like, I believe in the Holy Catholic Church.

And sometimes we might think, well, that must mean Roman Catholic Church.

The Pope Catholic. The Pope.

Those creeds were written before the Roman Catholic Church was even a thing

even really a thing yeah you know it's like that's what actually like that's a

really funny thing to think about because there wasn't a Pope.

At the making of the creeds. Otherwise, the Pope would have just probably done it himself. Correct.

But anyways, so those confessions are a confession that we all belong to the body of Christ and that,

among all the true believers in Christ, there constitutes a universal or whole church. It's

the confession that we hear at Conduit Ministries and any church here in the county, the state,

the city, the country, who confesses Christ preaching the gospel belongs to the same,

in one church, and we're all on mission for God, across history and across nationalities.

Yes.

So in some sense, we're Catholic. We confess and believe in the Catholic Church.

Guilty as charged. But little see Catholic. We're not Roman Catholics.

I am not Roman Catholic, no. So... But although there would be worse things to be accused of.

Sure, like being a heretic. Yes. Or a prosperity preacher. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I've got more problems with prosperity preaching than I do with Catholicism, so.

Yeah, so this week we're digging into baptism. We kind of, last week we kind of talked about all the different things coming in and around

communion and like the significances there.

We even did a bit of a theological like overview of sorts.

Like I won't say that was comprehensive by any means. No, I think the last podcast that we did,

probably more than anything else,

revealed us just having a conversation about what we actually believe or don't believe

or maybe don't know that we believe.

Like, we're just kind of wrestling with the issue more than making proclamations about this is actually it.

Right. Yeah, because I think the hardest part is like, you know, there's theology,

and then there's the application of the theology into practical everyday life,

or not everyday life, but everyday church life, right, as we're taking communion.

Cameron is, he is, every time we film one of these podcasts, he has a different energy drink.

I'm trying new ones every week, waiting to get a sponsorship.

So this week is ghost sour green apple warhead flavor.

Yeah.

It'll make you it'll wake you up Every time he takes a sip of that he looks like he just had like the most,

sour thing ever, um,

So, yeah, i'll stop that might be a good easter egg Somebody at some point categorize all the different energy drinks. Cameron's drinking. There you go. So.

Um But yeah, I think um

You know, I'm trying to think of where to start, and maybe we'll just return to where

I think we maybe—I mean, this is my big drum when it comes to, like, communion and

baptism, is that I think sometimes, because we are afraid of being Catholic, or afraid

of communicating the idea that somehow communion or baptism will save you or constitutes saving you, right?

Sometimes we are so afraid of that, that we go to a place where we detach it from the

gospel too much and unnecessarily, or we get to a place of really kind of guarding against

in such a way that we end up bringing meaning to baptism and communion that are not...

It's not there.

It's not there, or it's not the right meaning. The emphasis kind of misses it a little bit.

And we've talked about that, but, you know, for communion, like, the meaning that I see

sometimes put into communion is this kind of almost this rehearsal of guilt or rehearsal of of kind of like.

Don't know a weird sort of penance that can sometimes come into the way that communion is presented in some contexts, right

Yeah, and I've sometimes there's been times where I think I've addressed that even in the like institution of the elements.

Two things that I see is like that kind of somber,

Sat cloth and ashes type of approach to the communion table.

And I'm not saying that that's wrong, I'm not saying that's wrong,

but I'm just saying that that tends to take over as the predominant emotional culture surrounding communion.

Baptism, the opposite, right? It tends to be the celebration, communion, and the penance,

we wouldn't use that word. But, and then the other thing with communion is like,

when someone will come up and grab like the teeniest, tiniest little piece of the bread,

like, as if to almost like make themselves small. It's an interesting dynamic. I don't know if it's

if there's anything to it, psychologically speaking or anything like that. But I do

You wonder if like in the coming forward of during communion, if there's not a...

If there is not room for a emotive experience that is other than being sorrowful or somber

or woe, like can we come in celebration of the gift received?

Right, right. Yeah. of us are saying that there's no room for self-examination before coming to the table

repentance and penance.

But I think what does happen when that becomes the predominant meaning is it becomes a place of like.

Communion becomes less emphasized on Christ's forgiveness and sacrifice for us, and it becomes

more emphasized on my unworthiness. Or like, you know, well, don't take the communion elements.

If, you know, if you've got unrepentant sin, or don't take it in an unworthy manner,

there, so as to bring judgment down upon you.

All of that has an extreme emphasis on you as the partaker, rather than an emphasis on

Christ, the giver of himself through communion.

And I think that distorts it over the long haul, if it's... And I think that distortion happens because we are so afraid of people thinking that communion

saves you, that we might detach it from the gospel more than we should.

At least that's my kind of thought. Yeah, I can see that. Similarly with baptism, right?

Baptism is one that kind of, like, baptism is one I will get kind of like, I get kind of worked up about.

Because we begin to think of baptism, the way I've heard many people talk about it to

me, I'll talk to somebody and they're just like, I'm a, you know, confessing Christian,

go to church all the time, love Jesus, like, He's my Savior.

They're like, oh, I haven't got baptized.

Okay, why haven't you been baptized? Well, I'm just not, like, that's for the real disciples.

Or that's for the real Christians, or someone who's really ready to go

to the next level of Jesus. And I was like.

I don't think that's, uh, I don't think that's true. Like, like, like, um, or I have also encountered people who, you

know, like not everybody likes their baptism somewhat public, right?

When you're baptized, a whole bunch of people are watching you get dunked in water.

Um, like that's in almost every other circumstance, that's an embarrassing thing to have happen.

And so, some people, I think, maybe avoid baptism because of its public nature, and

they say, well, baptism doesn't save me, so it's not gonna hurt my salvation or hurt my

relationship with Jesus if I don't do it.

Now, I'm curious. I know what my answer is to that question.

I'm curious what your answer is to that question, Cameron.

If someone were to come up to you and say, Cam, I'm not getting baptized.

No, I'm like no the Bible says, you know, I'm supposed to or whatever but like you say it's not gonna save me

It's not part of my salvation,

Like I'm not gonna go to hell if I don't get baptized like why in the world should I do it?

Like what would your response be?

Well, I would say that In a way that's correct That baptism the water of baptism does not save

Mm-hmm any more than the lack of the water of baptism condemns, right, you know,

but then I would also say that the the Bible doesn't New Testament really doesn't have a category for,

a Unbaptized willfully unbaptized Christian. Yeah that it is,

in most creedal baptismal Like denominations or churches and we'll talk a little bit about what a creedal baptism church is,

It is considered to be the first act of obedience upon,

Confession and repentance of sin. Yep,

And it would be I think I think you would have to...

I would have significant questions for someone who was so staunch on the opinion of no baptism.

But yeah, I'm a Christian and I follow Jesus and I repented of my sins.

I would have some really serious questions about how they processed their own

own sin and their responsiveness to Jesus and the place of God's word in their walk.

Because they're aware that baptism is a thing that is asked, commanded of them, and they are choosing not to.

Right. I think it would be a significant conversation. It would need to be a significant conversation.

Yeah, that's almost word-for-word the language I would use around it too. There's almost,

there is no category in the New Testament for someone who has every opportunity to be baptized,

but chooses not to. And I think the fact that I've run into people in that category,

whether it's because they believe, well, it's for this next-level Christian, or, well, it's

not necessary for my salvation, and I just kind of don't want to do it, so I'm not going to do it.

I've run into both of those people. And I think that's a scary category for me,

because I'm just like, well, that it's not in keeping with church historic or biblical teaching.

It's a clear thing that we're told to do, baptize people.

Some of Jesus's last words to his disciples in Matthew 28. Yep. Go make disciples baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Yep, teaching them all that I've commanded you. Yes. And yeah.

And so that, for me, like becomes like...

Like in the biblical testament, anytime, particularly in Acts, people confess Christ

and then get baptized. So often, it's just right next to each other. It's just like,

they're like, do you say yes to Jesus? Okay, there's a body of water, let's dunk him.

Right?

Well, not to pull the Trump card, but like, hey, baptism was good enough for Jesus.

Right? He got baptized.

Jesus was baptized. So, I mean, come on now. I mean, and we can have some theological conversations

about why would Jesus need to be baptized?

Well, yeah, that, yes. You know, what is the theological point of Jesus baptism?

Right, baptism of Paul or baptism of John the Baptist and baptism of the church,

are those two different baptisms.

Right, yeah, because I was gonna, of the questions that I was gonna kind of rhetorically ask is where do we find the

first example of baptism? I'm talking about New Testament.

Yeah, well, that would be... You know, New Testament era.

I think John the Baptist. John, it would be John the Baptist, right?

Right, he was out in the wilderness baptizing people and baptizing Christ significantly.

Yes. And his baptism took on a particular... were, like there was a particular language to his baptism.

A way in which, you know, I don't think it's, John's clothes were made of camel hair,

this is in Matthew's gospel, it's in all four gospels.

People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan,

confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

So John came and did a baptism on the heels of a person's confession of sins.

Yes, yeah, it was part of a symbolic turning towards God and repentance.

A repentance and turning towards God.

But it wasn't necessarily, it wasn't necessarily in responsiveness to faith in Jesus Christ.

Right. Because Jesus was still a carpenter. He was, he was not, he had not died on the cross yet.

He had not been risen, he had not been resurrected from the grave yet.

He was arguably not in ministry yet.

Right. You know, and so there was a, there was a precursor baptism to what we.

Partaken now. Partaken now.

That was maybe theologically tied, but not theologically the same.

And then came Jesus' baptism, and then Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist,

but not the same baptism, right? Because if John originally baptized for the confession or in the

midst of the confession of sins, Jesus wasn't getting baptized as a response to confession of

of sin, because we believe that Jesus is sinless.

And so then early church, New Testament baptism came as a responsiveness to the work of Christ in their lives.

I repent of my sins.

I turn to Jesus by faith. My sins are in the grave.

I'm being resurrected to new life by unity and faith with him.

One of the, I think the classic passage, at least that we use here at Conduit,

to talk about baptism is Romans chapter six.

And if we are united like this with Christ and his death in the waters of baptism, we are united like,

with Christ like this and his resurrection.

So, the Bible has a lot to say about baptism, and maybe the theological stuff can get a little...

I don't want to say it gets complex along the way, but the actual practice then as it,

I think, plays out in the early church, I think maybe gets a little bit more complicated.

And that's where I have questions. I've got a lot of questions about that.

Yeah, well, like, so even John, John the Baptist, like, makes a distinction between what he's

doing and what Christ will do.

Right. So I've been in Mark recently, and in Mark chapter one, verse eight, John the Baptist

says, I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, right?

Talking about the coming of the one after me comes one more powerful than I the straps

of whose sandals I'm not worthy to stoop down and untie.",

And so John right there is making the distinction of, like, I baptize you with water, but there's

going to be someone who's coming after me who's going to baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

And you want to talk about places where the theology of baptism can get kind of complex

is because the New Testament also talks about baptism of the spirit, and sometimes that's.

Very closely associated with water baptism, and sometimes it's talked about almost independently

or separate from a physical water baptism. And so it can sometimes be a little bit confusing,

and where that theologically sits for a lot of people can be a place of contention.

Right, right.

Agreed, agreed. I think many of my questions are centered around like, I think that there's not a whole

lot of ambiguity in the scripture about the purpose of baptism.

Like the what's happening in baptism or what it's like, the distinctive theological qualities

that are at play, right?

We confess and repent of our sins. We proclaim the necessity of faith in Jesus for our salvation.

Were baptized with water, symbolizing many things, symbolizing the washing away of sin,

symbolizing the, at least if you're in full immersion baptism, which.

If you're doing full immersion baptism, symbolizing going into the grave,

the death of our sin, the death of our old self,

coming up out of the water, resurrection to new life, And that becomes the public expression.

Of an inward commitment or, I guess you could say soul trajectory,

similar to the way that our wedding rings are outward expressions of inward commitments

that we have made to our spouses, to our wives.

So that kind of, that's pretty unambiguous and there's really not a whole lot of debate in Protestant.

Theology across the board that that's essentially what baptism is. My question then comes is like,

okay, where in the life cycle of someone who has decided to follow Jesus does baptism happen?

Yeah. And maybe what is the church's place in the practice of baptism in the life of the believer?

Right. How much do we gatekeep baptism? And probably one of the most significant questions

that I have is, is baptism something,

that is done in the moments of,

closest related moments to justification? So the moments where I've confessed faith in Jesus

and I'm in like step one in my relationship with Jesus or does it happen in when I've reached a certain point,

of sanctification in Jesus? Right.

And the quote, you might be listening and be like, well, what the heck's the difference there

and what does it matter? Yeah, what's justification and sanctification?

Right, so justification is a legal term, right?

I've been justified, I have been declared not guilty.

Right.

Right, so in the courts of heaven, so to speak, by the blood of Jesus Christ, through the sacrifice of Jesus

and by my faith in him, I have been declared not guilty of my sin, I'm covered by the blood,

that my guilt has been transferred to Jesus, His righteousness has been transferred to me.

So I've been justified in my sin. It's that initial moment of like, I'm forgiven.

Sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit to produce holiness of heart and life.

Holiness, like produce fruit in my life, right? Where it has become demonstrable that the work of God,

or the spirit of God is moving in my life and that I am being not just cleansed of the penalty of sin.

Just death through justification, but I'm now being released from the power of sin in my life.

No longer am I a slave to sin.

I now become a slave to righteousness, as Paul says in Romans chapter six.

The way in which you, who you are and how you interact with the world is changing. Yes.

If, as you were talking, I thought of, maybe this is a bad analogy, maybe it's not,

like justification is the flipping of the light switch, and sanctification is the rolling up of

the fader on the light switch. Like, it's like, you know, justification is in some sense a status,

it's a qualification that we come into as we believe and trust in Christ for the forgiveness

our sins. It's an identity. It's an identity. And then sanctification is a scale. It's measured in degrees. Correct.

We could probably talk a lot about just sanctification and stuff.

So what is... I have an opinion on whether baptism is primarily justifying, primarily

sanctifying event. I'm interested to hear what you think because I have some like comments on

on its practicality for the life in church, so.

I've pretty much always.

Understood it as being tied to justification and not sanctification. I don't see.

As I'm sitting here and I'm thinking, I can't really think of any scriptures that come to my

mind that make me think it's an act of sanctification, particularly because of just its,

It's like, as I think of how it is portrayed in the records of it, is it's like this, like,

turn to Christ, get baptized.

Like it's always tied to the teaching of Christ.

Or to the accepting of Christ, at least in Acts, right? And I even think of, which, like, this will be something that I'm guessing we will talk

about, and we can talk about it now or a little bit later, but it's, at least in one passage,

it's compared to circumcision and as a marker of the new covenant, right? And so like,

when do we become partakers of the covenant, right? Justification, right? There's not a...

The problem with sanctification, if we were to say sanctification is...

Is, baptism is a marker of sanctification, which is what I think people are saying when,

they say, well, I'm not ready to be baptized yet, even though I'm a follower of Christ,

because I'm not ready to be that committed to Jesus, or I'm not that good of enough Christian.

Question becomes, okay, well, if sanctification's a scale, where on that scale does sit baptism?

Bingo.

Right? whoops, how many sins do we have to have repented of and released from our lives in order to qualify?

And who gets to be the judge of that?

Becomes a really, that becomes really tricky.

Yeah.

So I agree, I agree. And I think that it,

I believe that it calls into question practice of pre-baptismal catechesis.

Mm-hmm Which has been a practice or was it's a very common very common practice. Yeah,

and At least in the ancient church.

Was there was like the church became a significant gatekeeper of Baptism,

Up until a baptismal like they they I mean they would literally refer to them as baptismal candidates,

Hmm as if like well you're prepping,

for the ordinance or sacrament of baptism and We will determine When you are able to receive that yeah, right?

It. And in some ways that has, it's, I think it's been sewn into the DNA of the, of the church,

even now, where people as a pastor who say, you know, come to me and say, I want to be,

I want to be baptized. Is there a class I have to go through?

Yeah. Because usually like what, like a three, four week, at least a month long class you have

to attend and then like a one-on-one consultation meeting with the pastor before. Before, right.

They would give you the okay. And you might go through all of that and the pastor might say,

I'm not going to baptize you yet.

Yeah. And I think what they're looking for in that moment is the right, I don't know,

the right theological affirmation, the right theological declaration, the proclamation that,

you know, like, yeah, I'm done sinning. Sinning is no longer a part of what I do.

I'm like, oh, okay, I guess you're really serious about this. we'll baptize you.

Well, so I think I agree with you, but I want to be the devil's advocate for the other side

of the argument a little bit. So I've encountered and I've run into people, and sometimes this is

kind of the, this is the type of thing that is said oftentimes, I think, at funerals.

Or around someone's passing, particularly when they maybe weren't living a life that was marked

by Christ, and you have some uncertainty as to exactly what their eternal destination and

life was Christ, were they saved, were they not, becomes that question. And someone might say,

well, they were baptized. I was at their baptism back when they were 15. And once saved, always

saved, right? Now, we've said in this episode, baptism does not save you, right?

Just because you were baptized does not mean that you have, like, that's the,

proof marker, means you're saved, means you're justified, all of that.

That seems to be, you know, we would say, well, that's not very good theology,

right? And the idea of baptizing people who just, you know, get up the desire to, because they feel

like they ought to, or they don't understand what they think baptism does save them, they think,

you know, so we don't want to be baptizing people who then have a false assurance,

who then live their lives, not following Christ thinking, well, I was baptized, I did the thing,

not, you know, I don't got to worry about my relationship with God because I did that one thing that one time. And does not pre-baptism catechesis guard against that. So what would you say like to that? Why would we?

Yeah, I think that that certainly would be like, there would be, for me, like, it's more

of like, okay, when does the church disciple the new believer?

Does the church disciple the new believer in like a form of catechesis only before baptism?

And then we give them the information that they need in order to understand what they're doing, right?

Right, and then you get baptized, and then like, okay, we gave you the information, you did the thing, great.

What is the substantive difference between the like.

I repent of my sin, I confess, like, I wanna put the, I want, you know, through faith in Jesus Christ

for my, the life of sin to be put to death in me, and raising unity with Him.

And to do so in that act, even with limited, maybe intellectual understanding, and then the responsibility of the church still remains to disciple them in the faith, whether it is in the moments after or the moments before. Right.

And part of that is, of course, that like, hey, yeah, you know, this thing that you did or this thing that you're about to do doesn't save you.

That there is still a, it is the first step, not the last.

You know, it is the first step in your relationship with Jesus Christ.

It's not the last one. You know, and like we've mentioned Roman six a few times

and Paul opens Roman six, but what then shall we say?

You know, shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?

By no means. We died to our sin. How can we live in it any longer?

Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death.

We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that just as Christ was raised

from the dead to the glory of the Father, we may too live a new life.

So then the moment of baptism begins the process begins the process of our sin being continually put to death.

It's not the mark of sin being put to death.

It's the mark of sin continually, I think, being put to death.

And so I think it just, what I think is that I think that it just, it is the responsibility

or I think, you know, it is the purpose of the church, even as it, you know, as it's.

Even as like Jesus commanded in Matthew 28, teaching them all the things that I have commanded you,

you know, that there was a functionality to the work of catechesis or teaching.

The commands of God, the commands of Jesus that came or that comes along with baptism. But I think

that the church has defaulted to saying that that is only appropriate or that is most appropriate,

I should say, most appropriate pre-baptism, not post.

We're trying to teach people to obey all the commandments of Christ in the Great Commission, but we're doing it before we're willing to baptize them in some sense.

Yes. Or saying that you must understand or you must be following the teachings of Christ,

before you make the public profession that you're following Him.

You know, like you must be sanctified already. Right, to some degree.

You know, give up the vices, give up the sins, look more like us, then we will,

put the stamp of baptismal approval on you.

Yeah.

And I don't see much in the way of the New Testament that commissions the church to guard

baptism in the way that it does, at least historically.

Yeah.

Yeah, I agree like it's it seems that,

Baptism kind of happens all over the place in the New Testament like.

It's talked about way more than communion and it seems to just Happen all the time

And the spur of the moment. Yeah. Well, how could you we've been criticized here before?

When we have a baptism here, I try to, in those weeks, teach and preach on baptism and,

its meaning and its purpose.

And then we will do the baptisms, usually a handful or so. And then it's been my practice to ask, is there anyone else who this morning or tonight

has, upon hearing the word of God, has decided that you would like to be baptized as well

in public profession of a trust in Jesus to put to death your sin and to be united to him in new life?

And there often is those who respond to that. And the criticism there is like, well, they don't understand this.

They don't know what this is or they're not...

We haven't witnessed their actual relationship with Jesus or their conversion or anything like that.

And my response to that is like, baptism can be the moment of conversion.

And I think if we take the biblical account most seriously, it...

Does happen at the moment of conversion. Right. Like the moment of conversion.

Yeah, well, in the way that we often practice baptism is the day of baptism,

we usually are very clear in proclaiming the gospel.

Extraordinary. And so if someone is in the presence of the baptism on that given Sunday,

they've heard a gospel proclamation and we are inviting them to respond to that gospel proclamation, right?

And I think a question that could be easily retorted or asked would be just to simply say,

well, how much did you understand of what it meant to walk with Jesus when you said yes?

Right, yeah, very little. Very little, none of us really, like if you've been following Jesus

for more than a year, right?

Like you are beginning to gain some sense of like, I did not understand what this all was going to entail.

And you can't, because everyone's journey is gonna be different.

Well, what do we say to the critic who says, well, yeah, you gave the invitation,

someone who was there for the very first time at church came forward.

Yes, I wanna be baptized. I wanna follow Jesus.

You baptize them, and then you never see him again.

What are you like, so what about that person, pastor? Well, like one is like, we as a church try and follow up,

like we're not willfully just like saying like,

oh, we don't, we desire no connection with you past this moment.

But the thing too is, is like, well, the same way at a Billy Graham,

at a Billy Graham, you know, thing, like, not that that justifies it,

but like, I guess it's just saying is like, we can't control people.

Right. Like I can't control what someone does. People are personally responsible

for their walk with Jesus.

It's, I don't like, I don't find a huge substantive difference between the person who makes the commitment.

The first time that they're gets baptized we never see them again.

And the legitimacy of their salvation being questioned, and the person who sits in the

pew every single week, but continues to hold unforgiveness in their heart towards their

neighbor, or they're not generous with those who are in need, or they're unloving, and their.

Words are not full of grace and seasoned with salt. They're no less demonstrating that their

their lives have been changed by the gospel of Jesus than the person who made the decision

and then we never saw them again.

It's just easier for us to have criticism for those who it's like, well,

their salvation wasn't legitimate because we never saw them again.

Well, maybe your salvation isn't legitimate because you continue to live without any love

for anyone, including God, but yet you're here every week.

So you tell me what the difference is.

Yeah, well, this is a little bit off topic, but it's on that particular point, and I think

gets maybe at the heart behind some of these kind of questions and wrestlings.

I was reading, found a quote from C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity, and Lewis is making

this point, and he's saying, like, we often judge by exterior.

We're judging people's, like, what we see. God's judging by something different.

He's judging the internal man.

And Lewis compares, oh, I'm gonna forget.

He can he makes a couple different illustrations, but he's essentially he's comparing one man who.

You know, maybe has grown up in,

really harsh Environment has grown up very unloving and has this really harsh and hard character struggles with anger,

right and bad family background bad temperament all of those things and,

He loves G comes to know Jesus and then he He, you know, his life is still kind of a mess, but he is in a conversation and he restrains

himself, right?

And he kind of like withholds anger and seeks to be controlled by the Holy Spirit.

But the rest of his life still kind of looks like a little bit like a mess.

Versus maybe the person who seems to live this very, you know, Christian, quote-unquote,

lifestyle on the outward appearance, just by default.

Maybe been raised in such a way, family dynamics, personality type, they don't

have any overt visible sins that the world could look at and say, oh you're

doing an awful thing. They can kind of, even before Christ or without Christ,

they would have looked like an acceptably moral person. And post-Christ,

post being in Jesus, they don't make any significant changes in their life,

because they're like, well, I look good enough, I'm basically good, so like I

don't really have any significant sin to get rid of, and so they actually never

grow, they never move on that sanctification spectrum.

Who's God more pleased with?

And we might be tempted to look at the person who's not moving at all in their sanctification,

but is already just at this starting point that seems good enough, seems like a good moral person.

And we might look at the other person who's got several problems in their life and external,

visible sin, but who is making movement and progress in their sanctification and growing,

right? Who is God more pleased with? And Lewis is making the argument, he's like,

the one who's making growth, the one who is growing in Christ, responding to the work of the

Spirit in your life. Right. And so I think that is a heart shift that maybe we need to hold on to,

as we're even thinking about, like, because a lot, both of these conversations around communion,

and around baptism, like really where a lot of people and a lot of churches and

theological argumentation happens is who gets to. Who gets to and who controls who

gets to. Who controls who gets to. And if we have a heart that is shaped by the

gospel and is choosing to submit ultimate judgment to God and is willing to say that, like, you don't need to look a certain way, that.

There's certain, there's not a certain visible morality necessary, but that there's rather a spiritual condition or

surrender to Christ that is necessary. That, I think, solves a whole lot of the tension, at least for does for me.

Yeah.

I'm just thinking about like, what about really outward sins? Hmm.

That, okay, so let's say that baptism is the mark of a willingness to confess your sins,

repent of them, turn to Jesus in faith.

Okay.

Yes. Yes. Right. So a justifying act, but not a sanctifying one.

But then there are very outward sins.

We all know what those are, like very outwardly. Let's just use like,

oh, geez, what's an outward sin that we can use? Now I'm getting myself all messed up in my head

because I'm like, well, let's say.

Let's just say we post both,

that pre-baptism, we continue to see besetting sin alive and well,

not put to death in the life of a believer,

but they want to be baptized.

Like still a, either it comes as an unwillingness or it comes as a, I'm enslaved to this,

and I'm not experiencing any, I'm not experiencing any victory in my life in this,

but still believe in Jesus, still desire to follow him,

still wanna be united to him in his death and in his life.

Like, can I be baptized if I'm not like.

Have found freedom in any of these things? Well, again, when we're talking about baptism, like, I'd say, yeah, they should be baptized.

Like, because if we're tying it to a confession of Christ, right? Like, we're again, we're talking

about justification, not sanctification, then, yeah, like, we baptize someone, like.

Knowing that the gospel and sanctification is still going to be a ongoing thing. Yeah.

And I think... I mean, I've been baptized, and I've had to repent of sins.

Yes. Post-baptism. Gosh. Yeah.

Right? If... I still struggle with sin. if my first baptism depended upon me never struggling with besetting sin again, post-baptism,

let's go fill up the bathtub. Because that didn't count. And there becomes a significant...

You know, when we're having a conversation with someone, and they want to be baptized,

Like, it can take so long.

We like to make snap judgments. We like to be able to sit down with someone,

have a 30 minute conversation and think we know them.

And we often even do it in even less than that.

And the thing is, is like, you wanna be the judge of whose names are in the book of life?

I don't wanna be the judge. That's not my decision.

And it takes, it can take years of walking with someone to begin to see their heart and

to begin to see the trajectory that God is having in their lives.

I think one of the great things that people often misunderstand is we read passages like

Like Paul talking about putting, we're no longer slaves to sin, we're slaves to righteousness,

putting off the old self.

And we think, oh that's a thing that I can do like flipping a switch, right?

Put off the old self. Well, that's as much as just.

You know, you know, picking, changing clothes. It's that easy. Well, anyone who has been walking

with Jesus long enough knows that that's not true. There are sometimes what has been called,

a term, gross sins. Not that they're actually gross, but gross as in that they're kind of large,

visibly, easily seen and interacted with sins. Sometimes when people make a decision to follow

Christ, those gross sins, they will have some sins that kind of just fall off almost without

trying, and that's a grace and a blessing to God or into their life from God. But then there comes

a point at which that stops, and that the more underlying, internal, habituated sins that are

in a person's deep way of being take years to be removed. And so if you're talking about like.

Am I going to say, no, you cannot be baptized, we're going to wait till you take care of that

sin, how many years am I willing to wait? And am I withholding from them a means of grace,

a way of Christ affirming to them that they are His, that they are united with Him in death and

into life, and denying them something that could be important to them overcoming that sin?

Yes. Yep. Agreed.

I'm not gonna do that. Yeah, nope, I'm not gonna do that.

I am going to err on the side of Jesus being like,

you baptized way too many people that didn't really mean it.

That's the side I would like to err on rather than him being like,

people wanted to do the thing that I commanded them to do and you wouldn't let them.

Yeah.

I'll err on the side of like, man, bro, You were passing out baptism like it was candy on Halloween.

Right. Well, you know, it's not mine to guard. Baptism is not mine.

It's not the church's.

It belongs to Christ.

It belongs to his spirit.

You know, we really familiar parable is the parable of you know, the sower and the four soils

and The funny thing is right, you know, you read that parable and you're just like,

What is that farmer doing?

Cuz he's just tossing seed everywhere. He goes right. He's tossing it in thorns tossing it on the road

Thank goodness. Jesus gave an explanation, right? And you're like, why is he doing that?

You know? And you know what? Sometimes, I think we're just like, you know what?

We're going to be better farmers than that.

We're only going to throw on the good soil. Really?

Come on now. Right? Right? And I don't know.

Jesus, that parable, I keep mentioning the parable of the wheat and the weeds.

Jesus really does invite us to spread widely.

Yes. To leave the judgment of the goats and the sheep to him,

to say like, let us invite all who will come,

because what I might think is rocky soil, might be good soil that's just needs to rest fallow for a year.

Like, you know, like heaven forbid, I'd be the person who is like, you know what?

I just think they're really gonna be unresponsive to this. So I'm not going to push.

I'm not gonna like, you know, invite them in because they just seem

like they're not really responsive to the gospel.

And that'd be, you know, I would hate for that to be on my conscience.

Yeah.

Does the mode of baptism matter?

Well, I mean, no. Because I mean, like... So if I'm sprinkled on the top of my head,

it is the same as if I am fully immersed in water?

My personal preference, or my personal conviction is, not preference, but conviction is

full immersion, because that seems to be what is talked about in the New Testament.

You know, like, I guess there's maybe I'm just culturally reading into the text,

but there seems to be pretty good, like, that's how baptism was done.

You know, so again, it comes to a place of, like, if one can be immersed, why not?

It seems to carry a stronger imagery of the cross, tomb, and resurrection.

Sprinkling has a stronger imagery of the atonement and the mercy seat and Old Testament imagery,

which is not insignificant. Not at all, no.

But, you know, that's fine. But the question... And the imagery of like being cleansed,

like the water cleansing us of our sin, being washed by the water for the forgiveness of sins.

Yep, yep. So like.

Yeah, so, but the simple answer to the question is, Luke, have you ever sprinkle baptized somebody?

And I have, I did last year.

We had somebody who was not, for medical reasons, not able to be immersed in water like that.

And so that's what I talked about was like the atonement, like cleansing, like, and we sprinkled them.

And it was a fantastic, it was my favorite baptism. Right.

Because, I mean, the question is, is like, the sprinkling or the dunking is something that you and I do.

But the actual, like, significance of the baptism is done by the Holy Spirit.

Right. We baptize with water, Christ baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Right, so is the Holy Spirit present in this baptism?

Seems to me to be I'm not salient point. Yeah now,

There are some people that will live and die on this hill that they would they will die on the hill of full immersion

This was the way that Jesus was baptized. This is the way that the New Testament Church has always baptized people,

it is like Baptism must be full immersion or triple dunking,

Right. And the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Or first part of the creed, second part of the creed, third part of the creed.

Or day one, day two, day three, day two, you know, like...

I'm not there. I'm just not there. Maybe it's... Maybe I have a lower liturgical view of baptism than others.

What I would say was like, I don't think the water matters much at all.

Mm-hmm. Well, that's maybe an overstatement. The water does matter water matter. Yeah you I think that baptism does require water

But what do we use a cattle?

Watering trough like.

Use a large storage tank 700 gallon water storage tank with the top cut off like this thing was not bought from a,

Church magazine was bought from like yeah, it's a farmer store. It doesn't have a heater in it

you know, I filled up with the hose. It's not special water. It's city of Jamestown water.

Yeah. Yeah. We're not importing water from the Jordan River.

No, I'm not making the sign of the cross over the water to somehow supernaturally bless it or anything like that.

But we do believe Christ is present in baptism.

Correct.

Yeah. And yes, maybe the specifics of it are...

Let's not put Christ into a box by putting so many specifics around the mode that we

end up limiting Christ's ability to be present in baptism. Right, right.

So could we have communion with Kool-Aid and Cheez-Its? I don't like that.

What's the difference? You know, like, again, I would say, like, when, you know, like, if you push me, I'm like,

sure, because that's the only thing that's in your cupboard.

But when we could have the option for bread and fruit of the vine, then let us do that.

Oh, if it's grape Kool-Aid.

That's not fruit. That is powder, Cameron.

Okay. Okay.

I don't wanna be disrespectful. That would be my biggest thing, is that if you have nothing to take

communion but that, sure. But is it just being done because you wanna be edgy?

Right. Let's not do it because we wanna be provocative.

Yeah.

And say that the elements don't matter. Right. Let's not do that. Right.

Let's be respectful, right? And same thing with, I guess I could maybe ask the Catholic Church if

they could have gotten better super soakers for when they were doing squirting baptisms during

COVID. I just, like, part of me just says...

Jesus is going to have something to say about that.

I was just going to say, you know what? Like, you guys are that scared? Like, let's...

I would have... Yeah. My thoughts, but... Right. Well, then what about.

This is like the lightning round. Yeah. Cretal baptism versus infant baptism, pedo-baptism.

I am sympathetic towards infant Baptists. Like I generally get it because, you know, and even,

I think the biggest, there's that one passage that talks about baptism as being the marker

of the New Covenant and it's put right next to circumcision. And so that's where that, if you're

curious as to why people, some people baptize babies, it's because, well, circumcision was done

to children on such and such day. And therefore, baptism replaces circumcision for us, and

therefore, children should be baptized. I don't buy that in its entirety. I don't believe that.

No, I don't either.

I do, I'm not of the persuasion that somebody must be rebaptized if they were baptized as

an infant and now profess Christ as an adult.

I am not of the persuasion that they must necessarily be baptized.

I believe that God can use their faith and that that baptism is now their baptism and

credited towards them.

Beautiful picture of God's sovereignty and grace and like the family they were born into,

but given the choice, I would not baptize a child because I don't feel like that seems

representative of, again, of self... is the baptism is tied to...

Monus justification.

Justification. And I ask people, I'm like, well, now that they've been baptized,

does that mean that they're saved? And they're like, well, no. I'm like, okay,

then you have changed the meaning of baptism.

Correct. And so many people, people who baptize infants don't.

Think that the baby is then saved by baptism. That's not that theology.

They've just simply shifted baptism to mean something other than the justification.

And I think that ignores all the rest of Scripture in light of just a single Scripture. Correct.

That's my thought. Yeah, I generally feel the same way. Again, sympathetic towards those who desire that.

But because of my belief that baptism is tied to the moment of personal justification, I

reserve the right to baptize those whom are themselves willing to make a confession of

Jesus. Does that mean children?

It absolutely means children. Yes, I believe that children can make confession,

a confession of faith in Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins.

Well, what age can they do that, Cameron?

Whatever age they can do that. Whenever they choose. Because like, I will tell you that like I,

you know, you asked me my story of faith and like I still include the prayer I prayed when I was six.

Because I have vivid memories of it. And it was a significant spiritual moment for me, right?

There's been a whole bunch of hills and valleys and other moments of choice and commitment,

but that was not an inconsequential moment.

So, yeah.

What else? What else? I mean, I think that kind of covered it, didn't it?

I mean, we have covered everything there is to cover about baptism.

Well, that's not true. Yeah, I think we could have an interesting conversation.

We're running kind of long on time, but we could have an interesting conversation

about the connection between baptism and circumcision.

Mm-hmm. But...

Yeah, I think that would be a good conversation, even for me, to flesh out, like, okay, well,

if I don't think that that means infant baptism, what do I think that that passage means?

Coming up with not just a negative theology of the passage, but coming up with an affirmative

theology from that passage.

Maybe we can tackle that in a kind of a, we'll Q&A ourselves into that question. Yeah, maybe.

All right, well, we'll stop there. As always, thank you for listening.

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