Let’s Talk About Friendship

Welcome to The Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke. I am Pastor Cameron.

And with us today, we have a special guest. We have Silas Conway. Good morning.

Silas is a, well, he's a good friend of mine. We met, we went to the same Bible college together.

And yeah, we went to the same church plant for a bit and did all those kind of things.

That's kind of where we started our friendship.

And yeah, you're in town this week, and we thought it'd be fun to have you on to the

podcast. Yeah, I appreciate you guys being willing to let me just sit in.

I know that you guys just knowing Luke and getting to talk to Cameron once in a while

when I get to visit that you guys always having fun conversations.

And so I'm excited to just sit here and chat with you guys about things that are important

to talk about, good, beautiful, and true topics.

So you've, just to give people a little bit of context, you obviously went to Bible college with me.

You studied theology, right? Yeah, theology.

I think a lot of my focus was in historical dogmatic theology, specifically in magisterial

Reformation studies. So, the big names of Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, Buser, those people fascinated me

and still fascinate me to this day. There's a depth that people should, there's some.

Like everybody, there are good things and bad things about them, but they are.

The depths of human beings are fascinating to me to study. So, that history was important to me and

I enjoyed it. So what have you been doing post post? Um, so I graduated from moody, um, and then moved to,

um, uh columbus, ohio, and I left moody wanting to,

Um find a place in academia, uh, and I did for about uh, two years I I I went and and worked as a classical educator, uh at a high school teaching,

um medieval humanities um, 11th grade English, um, Latin.

Um, I ended up learning Latin in a summer, uh, and, and teaching that because there is a.

There was a change in curriculum and I was potentially going to be out of a job if I

didn't figure out what to do. And so they said, we need a Latin teacher.

So I became the Latin teacher.

And to clarify, learning Latin, especially to teach the junior hires in the summer is

not as impressive as it sounds.

I think we learned a whole of 250 vocabulary words. So like, you know, take babble of Spanish for like, you know, three months and you'll

know, it's not that impressive, but it was, it was a lot of fun.

And I, you know, mixing that with some of my studies of Greek in college helped me to

understand the way that language works even better.

So that was fun for me to develop that side of myself. And then I just, I found out how much fun teaching language can be, especially to younger

students.

They soak up language. They love doing the parsing out of verbs and declining nouns and finding their purpose

and sentences and helping them to understand how we communicate was really fulfilling.

So I did that for two years and I just finished my last year with them.

I turned in my resignation letter in December because I didn't want to miss out on educating my own children.

And so they were, you know, I have three kids. I have a lovely wife.

I don't know why I didn't start out with that. I have a lovely wife, Mackenzie.

How dare you? I know. I started out talking about myself and I don't talk about, you know, my lovely wife.

We met at Moody. We got married. She's an editor, but more, she just loves being a stay-at-home mom.

And so, through the course of a lot of events, which I'm not going to take the time to spend.

Talking, we decided that we wanted a lifestyle centered around preparing our children for the kingdom of God.

And so, that meant that we had to be very active, home, and present with them, and teaching

them to be a full human being, and that human being image being Jesus Christ.

And so they needed to grow up in a household where they were being directed towards the.

The new humanity that Jesus gives us. And so I could not imagine,

I really started thinking once I sat in the education career,

am I really going to have to wait until eighth grade humanities or 11th grade English to, or 10th grade Bible?

I taught Bible to teach my, you know, to be with my kids for 45 minutes a day in those periods.

And I just, I looked at that and I decided that, that just wasn't going to be for us.

And I really wanted to be actively at home with them. And so now we are starting a small homesteading business called St. Basil's Pasture.

We'll be raising pasture-raised poultry and beef cattle and doing some small dairy farming

as well, just so that we have the opportunity to be at home, incorporate our kids into our

lifestyle and spend a lot of time preparing them, hopefully for eternity in the kingdom of God.

So that's, I think that's the best quick summary about me.

So yeah. Cool. Yeah. Do you have any questions?

No, I would appreciate it getting to know a little bit of that story.

When we, I think it was mostly at your wedding.

We got that wedding, your wedding weekend. We got to talk a little bit about that. And it's exciting.

There's some, you know, some crossover to my own, my own life and you know,

what Sherry and I and our family do just to try and supplement and raise our own food

and homeschool some of our kids, one of our kids.

So, I think that there is a lot of crossover there for us and just appreciate.

I can appreciate that lifestyle. Like not, you know, it's sometimes what I've found

in like the, both the homesteading and the homeschooling community.

I suppose this is kind of a little bit like in any community or subsection of culture

is that when you do something that seems to be,

to be maybe a little bit non-normative.

Unorthodox. You know, unorthodox, that's a funny word for you to use.

I'm sorry, that was just such a softball for me.

I'm sorry, I couldn't help it. Unorthodox that when you talk about it,

it tends to, or it can, it can carry the weight of perceived judgment on those who don't. Yeah.

And I don't, you know, like, do I think everyone would benefit from raising their own food?

Yeah, I do. Do I think everyone wants to or is cut out for it or that it's necessary for them?

Absolutely not. I hope they don't because I really like doing it and if everyone does it,

then I'm not gonna have a business. So I really like there are other people doing other things.

I'm 100% there with you. And I think that was one of the hardest things about saying goodbye to my

teaching career was that I was leaving to go teach my kids. And so when people would ask me, my friends and colleagues, you know,

why are you leaving? I'm like, oh, because I want to go home and educate my kids. as well.

They have kids too and they're working this job And so that that statement of just this is what I'm doing

seems to carry with it that that that judgment that like I'm choosing something better than what you're choosing and I've tried my best and

And and the same thing with with with homesteading, which is a part of it, you know, is that?

That somehow choosing this lifestyle is somehow better than And that's not that's not true. It's just not it's not going to be for everybody

I'm you know, I was talking with a teacher friend who she's like if I wasn't teaching I totally be,

Homesetting can I you know buy some chickens for me? I'm like, yes I love that you're teaching and not homesteading so that you can buy chickens for me and so I can feed my family

So I'm you know, I love that people aren't doing it

I would just like to help people who aren't doing it get exposed to it a little bit

And so well, I mean the reality is is that Instagram other things like that. They do a great job at romanticizing that life

And I will tell you that like there are romantic aspects to it,

But the romantic aspects to it are about 5% of it the other 95% of it's just a lot of freaking hard work.

Yeah, a lot of time a lot of energy Very, you know when you're doing it to make money,

You know, the margins can sometimes be pretty thin if you don't know your market,

it, cause we've done that.

Like, and we still do, you know, we still sell some of our products, honey, eggs,

you know, pork and poultry, but you know, the margins are pretty, they can be pretty thin.

So, but yeah, to like try and escape, try and escape any sense of, you know,

judgmentalism for those that don't, you know, is, I think it's, it's important.

Like aqua, obviously it's important, but. Sure. Like, yeah, there's, but that there's definitely like, um.

I don't know. I don't know if it's just our own sensitivities or the way culture is or just like we're very value and signaling based that when people when people start making decisions based like out of strongly held values, that it's hard for other people to not take the fence to that.

Yeah, well, and it makes sense.

So like, you know, for instance, when, when we choose to do something,

especially something that is relatively counter-cultural or unorthodox or

whatever word you want to use, when we choose to do something that takes a lot

of hard work and that requires a lot from us, we have done so because we have

strong beliefs and opinions about that.

And we don't do things based on what, like we do things based on what we think

is the right thing to do.

And we don't always separate what is the right thing to do for us

versus what is the right thing to do fundamentally.

And while there's can be crossover in that in all areas of life, it's not necessarily always true

that the best thing for us is the best thing for everyone.

And we don't always make that distinction very clear that, you know, like, no, this is the best thing for our family,

but it's not the best thing, period.

Right. It's not the best thing fundamentally. And, but when we don't make that very explicit in life.

Then it becomes, it can become a cog in other people's, you know, perception of why we are making the decisions

that we're making, like, oh, you do that.

And so if I don't do that, then there's a perceived judgment.

That's just really not the case, or at least shouldn't be the case.

I think it's also a symptom of the modern Western world that allows us to make such radical changes to our life,

that at other points in history, the ability to change your lifestyle in such a dramatic way

was not a way to express your values.

You couldn't just up and do something completely different, or at least if you could, it came at probably even,

like I could farm for the next five years, And then, you know, if it wasn't, you know,

terribly successful, but successful enough that I could then platform and I don't know,

go to law school, like.

The ability is there to make those dramatic changes And so it's it's kind of a new phenomenon that that we can just up and move and do,

That that realm of choice is so much bigger And so that's something that we you know, you can leave your family of origin

You can do something other than what you grew up doing and then that creates that disconnect of well, you know,

why change, why, you know, and then that perceived.

That perceived idea that I'm leaving something worse for something better than kind of blossoms in the minds

of everyone who's perceiving what you're doing.

And it's difficult to control that.

It's difficult to control how that's perceived and actually make it something

that's not such a virtue signaling and just something that is focused on,

this is what is right for our family, not this is the virtuous thing that everyone should be doing.

So it's difficult.

Well, we wanted, well, Cameron, when you came in and you sat down,

you were starting to kind of, we were starting to talk a little bit about friendship.

That was kind of something that was on your mind. And funny enough,

it was a significant portion of our conversation last night, Silas and I were having yesterday.

So like, I think that would be a really timely thing to talk about.

What was kind of bouncing in your head around on that topic?

Yeah, well, you know, I have, you know, in the two years or so that we've gotten to know each other,

you and I, I have admired that you have strong friendship.

With, you know, guys, particularly from Moody, the guys that were in your wedding,

Silas, Connor, Phil, Corey.

And you know, that friendship is very like, it's obvious in the fact that you,

even in adulthood and with lives and some of you having kids and being in ministry

and you know, the busyness of life, you still maintained some sense of like,

things that friends do together, spending time together and visiting one another and whatever.

And...

Well there you know there is you know there's this there's a meme that goes around on the internets,

um it says essentially you know like uh everyone talks about the miracle of jesus turning water

into wine but no one talks about the miracle of jesus having 12 close friends in adulthood.

Or maybe we should say 11 close friends There's always that one.

Yeah. If you don't know the one, you are the one. Yeah.

And it, you know, it's kind of like funny, ha ha, but it's also funny, like

sobbing, you know, because it becomes, I find that it has become increasingly

true that as we become adults and we have lives, maybe we get married or we have significant,

you know, intimate relationships and we have kids and we get into our careers and,

that the, that friendship becomes more and more difficult and more and more complicated.

And I will say this with a little bit of trepidation.

But I think I do believe it, is it becomes more and more dangerous.

I think friendship becomes dangerous from the sense of like the,

what it requires of the person in their vulnerability in order to maintain good friendship

puts us in a place where like, you know, as our lives grow and as we have families

and as they become more complicated,

not just logistically, but emotionally and mentally and all of that, like life's,

they get complicated as we grow.

The ability to both maintain,

and especially the ability to create where there isn't any,

significant friendship that can kind of ascend.

Ascend above the complexities of life and like the development of strong like fellowship

and community and vulnerability and true love for one another.

It just is really, really, really, really, really difficult. really difficult.

And so I was thinking about that kind of in the context of knowing Silas was in town

and that he was gonna be here on the podcast this morning and just like wondering,

both from a sense of like as people of faith, but also just as like adult human beings.

What makes friendship so difficult?

And what are like some of the, what are some of the qualities and characteristics,

of both people and relationships that make friendships work in adulthood?

Because like, you know, as a 40, almost 41 year old man with, you know, leading a ministry,

and having five kids,

and like I would say that probably some of the most difficult,

the most difficult relationships that I have now is in front of my friendship relationships, you know?

And, but there's like this deep seated sense of like that need.

Mm-hmm of not like a not just surface acquaintance, yeah

I don't need somebody to talk about score of the football game with no like a little bit just

Yeah, just the score of the right like I don't need acquaintances, right?

I've got don't really want acquaintances anymore. Yeah. Well, you know like there's always gonna be some level I think of,

You're always gonna have a outer circle of acquaintances that you could you could sit down and have a cup of coffee with or a meal

with, but that, you know, aren't necessarily what you would consider core friendships.

But, um, but what, what I feel like down into my very soul is like, do I have, do,

Do I have friends that I can just pray with?

Or that, do I have friends that don't see me,

or need me to be pastor?

Do I have people that just know me for me? And that's enough.

And I think that in a lot of ways,

that that is not just a me problem. I think that that's a thing that a lot of adults experience now.

So I said all that to say,

having Silas here as your friend, friend for many years now, right?

And you've both kind of gone ways in life.

Where you're both married and Silas has kids and in careers and life choices and moving away,

and whatever, you've maintained a sense of friendship.

You've maintained, not a sense of, but you've maintained friendship.

And so I think it's a curious thing to me and I thought maybe it would be an interesting thing

to kind of just, you know, hit back and forth a little bit and see if we could determine what it takes.

Well, the funny thing is, I was wondering if you're gonna mention this,

I know where you're going. It's because Silas and I almost weren't friends.

Yeah. And this is actually something that I think is gonna be interesting to talk about and maybe, well.

Well, like, yeah, we didn't hit it off when we first met. First year.

Yeah, for first year or more. I think we both mutually drove each other nuts, to be honest with each other.

Like, we both went to the same school and like.

Thing about going to at least Moody, the Bible college we attended, is like, you didn't want

to go to a church or be involved in a ministry where there were a whole bunch of other Moody people,

right? And so I found... I met up with a church planner and eventually worked with the church

plant as the associate pastor, and I was getting involved in the very, very early, on the couch,

around the coffee table stages of the church plant, and then all of a sudden this underclassman

shows up who's like involved. And I was like, who's this moody student? Get off my church,

you know, like I wanted to be the inside moody student. And I think you weren't there at the

first meeting that I was at. So I felt that I had staked my claim first. And then you showed up or

at least you showed up late or something. Yeah. So I was like, Oh, there's already another one of us

here. Yes. So there was immediately some like, I don't know, competition.

But then also like our personalities we've since found out that our,

our personalities on the, are the exact opposite on the spectrum.

Like if you're like, you're like, if you know the Myers Briggs, I'm an ISFP,

ENTJ. It's like the exact opposite. And so we just, we both thought the other, find someone who's, no, I'm just kidding.

Well, we both thought the other person just graded against us. Oh yeah.

I was like, why won't he be quiet? Why would he ever talk?

He sits in the back and does the dials on the sound machine. Yeah. Yeah.

So we've just both, but we, but what, what do you remember Silas?

What was like the thing that eventually like we had a really bad double date once.

How did we actually cross the barrier from kind of just vulnerability? Uh, you had had a bad breakup.

And so, um, I think what happened is, so my wife and I, We're kind of, uh,

The church had gained a reputation and gotten really good at doing really intentional hospitality.

And we picked up on that. And so the pastor and his wife were good at inviting everybody.

So we're like, all right, we're gonna do that too.

And so we started inviting everybody and we spent an entire year inviting everybody

except for Luke, because I did not want to talk to him. And we were like, we have to invite Luke and his girlfriend.

Like we've literally invited everybody over to our house twice because our church was small and we invited everybody

over twice and like, okay, we have to invite the associate pastor over.

So we did, and we had that awkward date. And then I think you had had a breakup.

And then, um, you know, uh, and just as, you know, somebody a part of the community were like, we needed to, um, you know,

minister to, or just, you know, be a, be a friend, even though we weren't close,

like that's, it was terrible. And everyone was like, you know, you know, um,

and I think in that vulnerability, um, you started talking more,

Not that that was the problem, but that I saw that part of you, you were expressing.

And one thing that we do connect with is both of us are pretty emotionally aware and like

to talk about those things.

And so we, you had enough of an emotional experience to kind of, um, you could not correct

me if I'm wrong, but you couldn't really hold up the facade.

I think a lot of the times you're really good at, at, at having a face.

And I, I don't like that because if you can't tell, I really like to show my emotions and

express those. And so when somebody doesn't, I'm immediately distrusting of

them. And I have a hard time if someone's got, you know, you know, they're,

they don't do a lot. And so when you had the breakup, I think that vulnerability came out. Um, you were, uh,

and you were over at our house and then, um, and then it,

it was enjoyable enough just having you over that in lieu of.

Uh, you also, you know, had just been broken up and we felt like we need to invite you over more and

include you more, that it just started naturally. Like I think at that point, then we started doing like every Sunday after

church movie and pizza with you.

Um, and then it just became super fun when we found out what a cool guy you were.

And so I think there was a, there was a crucible of emotion that really helped to spark some.

Really quick Not manufactured emotional vulnerability that helped us to connect.

I don't think that is a formula for friendship, but I think that was a natural phenomena. It's an ingredient to our,

Well because like the other part too was is that like, you know on the up on the flip side of it

Is you guys practiced like vulnerability inside of hospitality like?

Like, um, you guys were inviting me over, like having, like spending time with me listening.

And then eventually, like you guys shared and shared in a vulnerability, it didn't stay

in a place of like, um, Oh, poor Luke or something like that.

It eventually transitioned into a, uh, I started sharing emotional, you know, uh, spiritual

emotional support on both sides.

Yeah, I started sharing, you know, frustrations with my past and what I was going through at school, and frustrations with, you know, multiple different things in my life, so.

Yeah. Yeah, because the thing about vulnerability is, one, true vulnerability in friendship is not a one-way street.

Yep. Because then it's a counseling relationship.

You know, like, describe the relationship where one person is vulnerable and the other is not.

Well, you're sitting with a therapist or a pastor, right?

So, you know, that, that, that, that doesn't work. And I think that the thing about one of the things about vulnerability is.

At least in the developing of intimate or close friendships or relationships is that

there is a, there's a mutuality of vulnerability. That's not just sharing, but that's also receiving.

Like, you have to be a person who is able to receive someone's vulnerability, not necessarily

just someone who is able to share your own vulnerability.

So like, if you're on the receiving end of someone's vulnerability, like let's just say

that you have a relationship with someone where you're both sharing really vulnerable

parts of yourself. Maybe just because you're overwhelmed and it's the person that's in

front of you or maybe it's because you're intentionally trying to develop that friendship.

And you're really really good at sharing here what's going on but you're really really really

part of receiving it.

Like either their vulnerability makes you uncomfortable or you, um, it's possible to oversympathize and over empathize.

You put yourself, you put yourself in a bad situation.

Then it's really tempting, especially for men to be like, well, I hear your

vulnerability and you're speaking about a problem, let's go fix it.

Yeah.

You know and so then the person sharing just kind of becomes the project to fix

rather than the person to exist and so there's this kind of like delicate

balance I find of and realizes men aren't pretty great at being horrible even the most vulnerable among us are not really very normal so so there's

There's this balance to tread or to walk on where, like, okay, how do I become a person

who, like, where vulnerability, I receive it safely and in a way that allows for continued

both sharing and building of friendship.

Yeah.

Well, I think you're hitting on something I think is really important to talk about.

And it's definitely this like, it is this place where I've seen people kind of get trapped,

where you really, really want or need friendship and relationship.

This sometimes happens in dating relationships, but I've also definitely seen this happen

and friendship relationships where there's a.

Because like, it's a hard thing because we do need relationship, we need people,

but when we come to a place where,

like if I was becoming friends with you and I sat down, I immediately went to a place

of like a lot of vulnerability really fast, and I was immediately, like you got a sense

that I kind of had like, I was trying to grab onto you a little bit. Like a vacuum.

Yeah, a little bit of a vacuum. I'm like, I want you, I want a friend,

I want a friend, I want a friend. Like, that's kind of the vibe you're putting off.

And what happens a lot of times, and it's really sad because I think a lot of friendships

and relationships are cut short because of this reality.

But what happens is the person who is not the one who's in the kind of needy emotional space senses that

senses that and then loses, I think what they do is they lose trust.

It's my thought is that we sense that the other person is coming to us needing something from us,

needing maybe us to like wow this person really really wants and is really being vulnerable and giving a lot to me and,

I don't feel like I trust them

To like like I don't feel like I want to be mutually vulnerable with them,

Because I there's something about the way that they're approaching the relationship with such a high intense need that.

That makes me hesitant to engage in it, do you know what I'm talking about?

I mean, I know that I know that feeling or I know like that that happens But I don't know that I would have said that it was trust me neither,

If you guys so we'll pick back up where we where we were just at we had a technical difficulty, but,

We were talking about that idea of like when someone comes to a relationship really needing that relationship and then,

Like I was expressing the idea that like it's kind of like lack of trust But you guys are saying like that wasn't necessarily what you guys were identifying

And you were in the middle of saying what?

Yeah, I think that human beings have a natural perception at what,

Relationship will cost in social currency in emotional,

Attention how much attention I will this is actually There there there's studies done, especially around adults and children and children who do not have.

Properly developed social skills by like four years old there's there's this range from like two to four where there's a lot of

of very fundamental and ground level social skills that are learned that if aren't learned

makes it very difficult four years on and onwards in the child's development as far

as becoming a part of the community.

That if they don't have those develops, it becomes very hard for them to have relationships.

And when those aren't trained and developed in those two formative years, adults can pick

up on that and those are the children that we know are going to take more of us.

And it's like if you watch there's like a wave around the child that will happen even

like physically where people will move away because they and the child might do something

along the lines of like be very inappropriately doing physical contact like lots of physical

contact like climbing on you.

And at four years old, a four-year-old who does not understand that you can't just go

and clamber on to somebody like a two-year-old, we as adults feel like that.

So that child has obviously not received correct training and has not had people that gave

them that physical contact. And so now they're desiring that and they're coming towards you.

And you're recognizing that that is going to be a big emotional...

If you're, if you're going to commit to this, this is going to be a long and more difficult emotional.

Task for you to engage into and it's gonna require a lot of you and I think that we can pick up on that with

Each other so that when we come to relationship and we start to you know Do those same things in different ways where we're like socially?

You know, it's socially awkward to overshare and be really vulnerable right at the start,

It's easy for someone on the receiving end of that to perceive

Okay, somebody has not had the emotional connection that they need even if we can't articulate that

that. And I'm not sure that I want to be the one to fill that large gap that they're asking

me to fill. It seems like it's not going to be. And I know it sounds economic and utilitarian.

And that's not all it is. But I think we have to acknowledge that some part of it is just

that there's a bit of us that kind of recognizes that I'm not willing to emotionally do all

that work of filling that whole need that you have and you're kind of asking a lot of me and I'm not

sure if I'm willing to give that to the relationship and we pick up on that. I think that's what I

would I would say is what we're recognizing in those moments. Is that like along what you were

thinking or something different? Yeah no I was thinking yeah something similar that I what I feel

is that we tend to have a gauge.

About how much willingness we have to enter into relationships that will seem non-reciprocal.

Yeah.

Where it becomes like a helper helpee rather than a, I think it just,

And I don't necessarily think that this is a viable or a very healthy way to enter into any relationship,

but you know, like the old adage that, you know, first impressions make a difference.

They do. You know, they do make a difference.

Those impressions can be overcome. Your guy's relationship, a perfect example, right?

But when there is an immediate, when there's an immediate like bolus of vulnerability

in like a, I am not ready to reciprocate the same level of vulnerability because I don't know you.

And maybe trust comes in there. Like I don't, I don't trust, I don't think it's like a.

Yeah, so maybe I suppose that trust is an underlying issue. I don't trust you enough,

to share the same level of vulnerability that you're sharing with me.

It's not that I distrust you because of the vulnerability you're sharing. Yeah.

It's I distrust being able to share that level of vulnerability with you.

And so the relationship is it exists in an imbalance, an emotional imbalance

that creates a little bit of an emotional hierarchy in the relationship that doesn't allow true connection,

to happen at least in the beginning.

Yeah, I, you know, like we're not talking, again, we're not talking about dating,

we're talking about like friendships. Yes.

But like this can be a component, and was a component I dealt with

in romantic relationships for a long time,

was anytime I came to a romantic relationship,

I was coming from a place of lack of security, lack of identity, lack of, just generally lack of self.

And I was coming and like my idol for a significant portion of my life has been romantic relationships.

I've wanted to get my sense of self, my sense of identity, my sense of purpose

and like security from having a romantic, emotional relationship with a partner.

And when I did that, I think at a very gut level, the person on the other side of that always felt,

that I was asking too much of the relationship.

Like I was asking the relationship to do things only God can do. Yeah.

And it was becoming, it was unhealthy. It always led to an unhealthy place.

But we can do the same thing with friendship.

And like in, you know, some of us do that in romantic relationships, but some of us also just do that

in relationships or in friendships.

I do, I do remember, um, so I was an RA, uh, on campus in college and like resident assistants,

you know, like on some colleges campuses, like they're just paper pushers, people who just kind

of like make sure people go to bed by curfew, kind of just like the whole monitor of college.

Um, but the Bible college we were at, like put a way bigger spiritual and pastoral emphasis on it,

it, which wasn't necessarily healthy.

So I would have people coming into my dorm room all the time, like needing life

advice and help and stuff like that.

And when I graduated and some of the guys on my floor would run into me post

graduation and they would want to sit down and I had like coffee with a handful

of them and we would sit down and we'd have a conversation and it, for them, I

could tell that they were not, they were expecting the same level of like

counselor, pastor Luke, but I was like, but I'm not your RA anymore.

Like if you wanna be, if we wanna maintain a relationship outside of this, it has to become more mutual.

It has to come from a place of like, I'm not here to be the wall of reflecting

for you to kind of process whatever life thing you're going through.

Like, you've got to ask me about how I'm doing too. You know, it becomes,

it has to be a mutual supporting of each other.

Exactly. Yeah. All right. And right, wrong or indifferent, there has to be a set like, when there is a sense when there is

a person, even a perceived, and you can talk about it in whatever dimension that you want a perceived power imbalance in

a relationship, it'd be it's really, really difficult for

there to be.

True, I think, like, healthy, healthy friendship, healthy relationship, which is, I think why it is difficult.

Maybe I don't like to talk about ministry or pastoral work or leadership in ministry

as with like use power dynamics to describe them.

Yeah.

Cause that's so totally antithetical to what we believe about the gospel or to what

I believe about the gospel. Anytime we put on a singular lens, things get distorted.

Right. But the reality is that there is a perception,

of imbalance between pastoral work.

And being just a regular lay member of a congregation. You know, and so how many times do we see

or interact with people who speak to us,

and interact with us differently than they would.

Just a friend, right? Because there's this perceived level of like,

you're a pastor, so there are ways in which I should talk to you, act around you,

interact with you that they don't carry with them in other relationships.

And so even despite our best efforts to maintain a even keeled sense of like interaction with people.

They sometimes don't allow that.

And so it becomes difficult for, there's just a real sense of like question out there

in ministry, especially in pastoral ministry, is like, can you be friends

with the people that you're pastoring?

Well, so like, you said this at the very beginning, and you said you were kind of hesitant,

And I think this is kind of getting to it.

You said that making friends as adult is perhaps a really dangerous thing.

Becomes more dangerous to make friends as adults.

And I've had an experience, I've had a couple of experiences where I was interacting with someone

I was, who was also like.

In ministry too, and I was like, oh, I thought, I thought, I was like, oh, maybe this is like a

friendship. This is, I'm not just, I'm not just being a pastor in this moment. This is some

friendship. And I extended some vulnerability. And then what I later found out was that that

vulnerability was then shared amongst the, you know, the gospel gossip, gossip, gossip vine,

Vine, right? Like the church gossip Vine. And I was like, who told you that? Like, oh.

That person that I thought I was talking, I thought we were, I thought there was an

understood, like, this isn't going to go anywhere kind of thing. It wasn't anything particularly,

it was more personal, but it wasn't anything like awful or scandalous by anything like

anything like that. It was just kind of a letting someone in on what was going on in

my personal life a little bit. And next thing I knew, like a lot of people knew, I was like,

that was not intentional.

And then I had a conversation with the same person and what I slowly started to realize

is that a lot of the questions they were asking me were not questions about me,

they were questions with a back door open to learn about the behind the scenes

of what was happening at the church.

They wanted to know, they began to ask me questions about you and about other things going on.

And I was just like, no, like, that's not like, if we want a personal relationship.

Like we're not gonna talk about like the behind the scenes stuff, like trying to get some sort of inside scoop,

which there isn't really much one to be had in case you're curious.

But I do think like Silas, there's something to like, because I was one of your pastors. Yeah.

When we really started to become close friends. And it's been something that we've had to,

we had to navigate for a while, and then post in a place where I'm no longer your pastor,

Like it, you know, so it kind of became a.

You know, I'm curious what you're, as you're hearing Cameron's thoughts on that, like,

that power dynamic, that difference, like.

Yeah, so, well, I honestly, I had a couple questions for Cameron where he was going with

that, but I'm not sure we really want to, this is really the time to talk about specifically

ministry friendships. We're talking more about friendships, so I'll try to keep it there.

We can talk about it all. This is uncut here, so you're going to get it whether you want it or not.

Right. But I understand that might not be helpful for people just to talk about

that. But so I'll, we'll just talk about, um, yeah.

When you were talking about your RA relationships, my, my thoughts were, well,

after we got out of, you know, crisis mode and the breakup where Mackenzie and,

I were providing more of a, um, a,

a physical refuge outside of your apartment to come spend unload that wasn't at

unload that wasn't at the church in front of everybody and we could have pizza

and hang out. And once we got past that,

then the friendship started to build. And at that, I don't think at that point you were my boss yet. We're just working together.

And so the friendship had begun and then.

Um, but, but already there was a, there was an age gap and there was still a much bigger maturity gap there

between us. And there is now, I think, um, where I,

As you're talking about your IRA relationships, I was thinking back after we got past the

breakup, I was like, no, I started to look up to Luke like, like kind of like an older

brother for a good bit.

And like I was going to Luke for like, I think pretty early on in the friendship, it was more one sided.

Not super unbalanced, but you were giving me way more.

Advice, coaching, um, and, and taking on, and then you, and then you became my boss. And then,

so that kind of solidified there as you were kind of, uh, my, my,

my boss, uh, my authority figure, um, and you were directing parts of my ministry, um,

as the worship director, as I was directing other people.

And so that naturally kind of turned into that dynamic.

But then, you know, we had a pastor that was over both of us.

And so there was also like a camaraderie, um, like, you know,

assistant manager and, and, and assistant to the regional man,

assistant to the regional manager and yeah, and, and everybody else versus the,

the general manager, which is a little bit higher.

So it was easier for us to relate than I think probably it was for you to relate,

uh, to your, your boss.

And so it had enough of a casual niche in the professional relationship,

professional relationship structure that we were able to overcome that and,

and work around it. And then definitely afterwards, um, you know,

after you, after we were no longer working together,

then it really just solidified as, as, as, as a, just a mutual friendship. Um, uh,

I didn't have any difficulties being friends with, but I was also a part of ministry, right? I wasn't somebody.

So we could talk about different parts of ministry. Um, So there was a little bit of confidence there where you couldn't talk to me about some of

the things that you and the head pastor were talking about, but that was okay.

I didn't have a problem with that.

But we had some shared frustrations about like, you know, things that, you know, were

people, you know, not showing up consistently on Sundays and you're like, it's a bummer.

That, you know, things like that, that we could talk about. The struggles of being in a church plant that's 15 people big.

Yeah. Yeah. Like just normal things. we were able to kind of bridge that.

I know, like, I feel slightly uncomfortable by the word, too, but the slight power dynamic of him being my pastor.

But because we were kind of co-pastoring the church, it wasn't as big of a gap.

And so... But there was definitely, like, I do remember making conscious choices on my part to, like, even though, like, there were moments where, like,

like Silas, you needed me to be a pastor to you,

to be a good friend to you, and like you were needing some advice and things like that.

I made a choice, I do remember making choices to say like, no, like I'm still going to be vulnerable,

in addition to that. I'm not going to choose to let that be the defining dynamic.

I didn't want that to be the defining dynamic, so. I do think that it maybe speaks,

when we're talking about friendships in a ministry context, it speaks to the culture that has been built around ministry

and leadership and ministry more than it does about friendship, probably, you know?

Because, you know, like to, you know, the common kind of refrain is, well, yeah, we're friends,

but okay, now if we get into a situation where as a pastor, maybe there is a little bit of admonishment.

Or gentle exhortation in a direction, that is that my heart is hard in.

Then it becomes a, like a, if we don't, if as a friend, we don't have a heart to receive,

a humble, teachable, gentle spirit in general,

not just in that relationship, but in general, then when our friend comes and tells us

or our pastor comes and tells us, they're like, well, who are you?

Like, why are you being the heavy? I know things about you.

We're like, well, yeah, I know you do.

Right, we're both sinners. Yes, because we're friends and I've shared those

with you in vulnerability as friends, but it does not negate the reality of like that.

In this context or in this relationship or this conversation, like you need me

to not just be a friend, but also the, you know, like the person to whom.

Like has accepted a weight of responsibility for the shepherding of your soul.

Right, well, and the thing too, is that like there's that unique authoritative

responsibility that sits inside of the ministry context.

But I do think that we've lost a little bit of the view of biblical friendship,

in that we've lost the sense of those, there's a number of Proverbs that talk about friendship.

The one that sticks out to me is like, harmful are the words of like,

or harmful are like the soft words of an enemy, but like good are the painful words of a friend, right?

Like the idea of a friend coming, who's not a pastor, who's not trained in ministry,

but is a friend in Christ, coming up and saying,

hey man, like, I'm with you enough to see this pattern in your life,

and I wanna wake you up to what God wants to do in that.

Like, can you do that? And I think that that category or the ability,

because so much of our concept of friends, and I understand why, is because we need that,

is just like, oh, we just need buddies to hang out with,

people to be with.

I just need less pressure, I don't need someone to need something from me, We just have fun.

And then we, because we long for that kind of relationship, but then we're, we're shortcutting

what I think God intends for it. And that being a, a mutual building, like someone who,

someone who genuinely, like, I talk about this a lot with the, the recovery stuff that I've done,

and just working on like people with addictions and things like that. And I will talk with people

who are particularly making a change, moving away from use of alcohol. And what they often

find is that they find out who wasn't actually their friend. This is all of a sudden, they've

got friends who are really mad at them, because they have stopped drinking alcohol. It's like,

well, they were not your friend, because your friend would want the best for you. And if the

the best for you is to not be consuming alcohol, they should not be guilting you, shaming you,

trying to cajole you into having a drink.

They should be supporting you. And I think we've, like, that's a huge, because, you know, Lewis defines friendship as walking

alongside a path, coming alongside someone and saying, oh, I enjoy this thing.

And the person says, oh, me too.

And that's how C.S. Lewis describes friendship starting. And I think that's true,

but if it only ever stays in a realm of like.

Convenience or shared interest, and never moves into interest into the other selves

and to their best, like we're short-cutting what God has for us inside of that relationship. Yeah.

Yeah, what else? Like we talk a lot about like the internal.

The internal dynamic of friendship, like internal to ourselves and to the other person,

being vulnerable, you know, like having like this sense of like safety. I think to me that that like

it speaks a lot towards like sort of a congruity in emotional IQ, like the ability to be vulnerable

and share and receive and all of that. But there's also I think aspects of like what in adulthood

where there becomes a practicality of life,

that makes friendship more difficult and what are kind of some of the hurdles.

And or necessities for creating good friendship in adulthood?

Like say you guys didn't have a strong friendship before, Before now that you're living three hours apart,

You know the proximity You know, basically it's difficult to be good friends if you're not proximal to one another,

you know and sometimes you can be super good friends and,

then Have a lot of space physical or geographical space and the realities of your friendship,

change change, you know, because you two are changing because you're becoming different people as you

are, as you are physically apart,

you are not having shared experiences anymore. And, and, and so the people that are coming back together are in some ways different than,

than where you were before.

Or even just, are you saying like just, um.

The cost of continuing to invest, Like we lived when we, when we knew each other in Chicago, you were a walk away.

We were a walk away from each other. I just had to walk across the park and I could be at your house.

Um, but now like the cost of investment is, you know, a full tank of gas and a

night away from family in order for us to spend time together.

Thank you, Mackenzie. Um, so, um, like not everybody, not everybody maintains relationships when

those costs rise. Is that what you're more? Yeah, yeah, I guess they are. That would I think that that what Silas sure is

probably a underlying, like, I think that's what happens. Yeah.

When there's a lot of distance. I don't think that it's necessarily like the reason that it happens. Yeah. Yeah.

Because, because, because we have moved away and we have changed. But the difference is that I mean, with modern,

technology and phones, we are able to, Luke and I are able to perceive the changes and, and, and, and see, and participate

still in those changes in those life events still. And it's when that communication breaks down that some that it's like going

back to if you don't maintain that communication, it's like going back to your hometown and expecting like that old,

friendship to be no, you're different now that you didn't continue it.

And so, that's all I was saying is that it's yeah, that's not what...

Us being far away and changing apart from each other is not what's gonna break our friendship apart

It's gonna break our friendship apart is if we stop making the emotional commitment to to let each other know what's going on

And Luke is still involved in my life, even if he's not physically there and I'm still involved in his.

But there is like a logistical like I Find that it's sometimes hard to make friends with people who are outside of your same life stage

Mm-hmm,

Like being a single guy and trying to make friends with couples particularly couples with kids,

like that's a pretty big life stage jump and Like that was difficult and like me having to learn to make the consideration of like, oh, yeah,

They can't stay out till,

you know, 11 o'clock because like they need to be home for their family.

It's the middle of the night. It's the middle of the night.

Because like, you got kids, gotta go to bed, they gotta be fed, like they're, you know,

you've got those things or like it's easier for me to go, like as fun as it is, I'm like, ah,

like it would just be so more fun if like they could come to my place.

But the thing is, is my place isn't childproof.

No. It doesn't have anything for kids to do, right? And they're like, well, hanging out with me

also involves hanging out with my family a little bit.

And I think that dynamic becomes difficult sometimes.

Yeah, it does.

I get the sense that,

like people, there's been like stuff, I think there was an article released recently

that talked about like the loneliness epidemic and all of this stuff.

And there's a, you know, the book I always think about with this topic is,

I've never read it, I've just heard about it a gazillion times, is Bowling Alone.

You know, like this idea of loss of like communal third spaces.

Right. Adults don't do things by together anymore. It becomes more like nuclear family focused and stuff.

But I do get the sense that everybody.

Is longing for friendship, longing for community and connection.

But we're all waiting for the other person to make the move.

Right. And the reason I think one of the reasons, and you're talking about the

communal space there is that for, I would say 90, 95% of everybody living in our cultural context.

Was put into a school system where friendships were, you know,

know, circumstantial and, and the emotional effort of, of putting yourselves in a, like,

it was, it was utilitarian. You had to be friends with who was there. Um, some, I mean,

my wife went to a really big high school where you could kind of choose your friends, but

I went to a small high school where it's like my class was, you know, I think 30 by the

time we grew up, like there were 30 of us when we graduated. So you had to be friends

with them, like they're and you were with each other every single day.

And so there was, there's, uh, that was the way that we were taught to develop friendships.

And then you go into, um, you, you transition into adult life where you're not required to spend time with people.

Uh, and you can always choose to leave. Um, and you're not forced to work through some of those difficult things because

of circumstantial space that you've not had to flex the muscle of working through, um.

On your own self discipline, uh, to stick with certain groups or, or a place or a person

that you kind of have to, like, you can get a fight with your friend in homeroom, but

the bummer is you're going to be in that homeroom for the next like three years with them.

And so you're going to have to get over that beef really quick, or it's going to be a miserable,

high school career for you.

And I don't think we have the opportunity.

In that context to flex the muscle of our own independent discipline to work

through some difficulties and the ability to kind of flee from emotional.

Trial and difficulties is a little bit too tempting sometimes for us to resist

and kind of just run away when things get difficult. And so I think that's a hurdle that we have to jump over.

Makes me think of like the rise of work friendships, of like, you can make acquaintances and works

and pals that like you get along with at work, but then that only goes so far, or only goes

to a depth of so so far.

And then you're like, well, I, I feel kind of close with the people who maybe I work

with, or I'm like, have a, you know, consistent connection with because of some commonality.

But at the end of the day, they're not the person who I feel like I could call in the

middle of the night, like if I needed help, or you need somebody to talk to, or not, not,

a not not a place where I can just show up at their doorstep and be welcomed.

And that's usually demonstrated when you switch jobs.

Yeah. And those relationships are maintained. Absolutely. Yeah, like, okay, now we have a sense

of what that relationship actually was.

Right. Yeah. So there's something more to it. Yeah. There's something more than just commonality. Yeah, or proximity.

Yeah. Right. Can create a level of friendship, but it can't make the level of friendship

that we're maybe all longing for. Right, yeah.

Yeah, there's something I was gonna say.

I don't remember, I think it had something to do with just the difficulty of creating relationship,

creating friendship when they're in the adult stage of life,

when it hasn't been, it wasn't initiated at a less complex stage.

For me to go out and say, okay, I'm gonna go out and find a best friend.

Well, you know, I think it's like the complexities of, and I don't want to just like, I don't know, it feels really like part

of it is because this is something that like all of us, I think all of us, I know are still

wrestling with that. We don't really have this figured out. I, so I don't want to just be

lamenting the complexities of it, but like complexity is, is like, well, if you're going

you're gonna go find a friend, I also need to find someone who's willing to.

Not just be a friend to me, but be a friend to me, at least to the extent that they are helping me.

Like, care for and love my family better. I need somebody who is not just like a friend to me,

but someone who's willing to be a friend to me so that in part, I can be a better person for my

family. You know, that whole trying to find couple friends, right? Like that, that whole dynamic of,

trying to find a couple that you can both hang out with and you both mutually like,

all four of you like each other right that that complexity the facts of the matter that like you

know you've got like you've got evening engagements throughout the week you know we've got work

engagements maybe kids got things going on and stuff like that and you spend if you're already

spending a couple nights a week out of the house doing something kind of obligatory, like, man, sometimes it would just be really nice to just stay home,

right? And like, not put myself out there.

Right. I think I'm going to take the conversation a little bit to a to a slightly different direction. But the one thing that popped up in my head is

like. So what are some things that people can do to, how do we, how do we naturally, so Karen, you said, you know, I want to go out and, you know, find a

best friend and like that.

I think for all of us, that statement there, like walk out the door and go find a best friend feels

awkward. Like, how do you even do that? Like, what, what is that going to entail? Like, do I

just go grab somebody and like, start to emotionally and that's, that's just not natural.

I don't think that's how friendships happen. And I think going back to our relationship,

how it started. Friendships happen, I think, a lot of the times through one person needing help.

A lot of the time. So one way that I think that I have learned, and this I forget who said this

quote, but an older, I don't know, somebody said this, I don't remember who, but they said,

the best way when you're moving to a new town to get yourself invested in the community is to ask

Ask for help. Don't do favors for other people. Ask for help.

Why? Because everybody in the community is looking for ways to show that they are a reliable

part of the community, that they are somebody who can be trusted, somebody who is a good,

person, someone who is helpful, someone who is a part of the community, and you are giving

them an opportunity to one, show that, and to two, make them feel as if in some ways

that you're a little indebted to them.

People don't like to, you know, feel themselves indebted, but when they feel like I've really,

you know, supplied something to their life, you know, you feel stable, right, as somebody

who is contributing to the larger community.

And so...

People like to be needed. People like to be needed.

And so one of the ways that now that I've started a homestead, that...

Naturally, that I have gotten people to drive forty five minutes from Columbus

out to my small property to be my friend from my church, because we live a good

distance away from our church, is say I can't do some of this work on my own.

Would you be willing to come out and help with me and especially guys like guys in my church come out in droves to do free labor for me, and it's pretty

Awesome.

And, you know, I feed them and they come out and then we sit and we hang out and I've gotten

some great relationships in my church now because and they have not come out and helped

again for like, you know, four or five months.

But that one time of them feeling as if they are helping me, which they were, and that

investing into my family, right? And, and what I'm,

and I think human beings are more, I think here's, here's a key thing.

Uh, we are much more willing to invest physically than emotionally.

Like we're, we're more scared of like feeling an emotional void for somebody than we are a

physical void. Like, I think I would much more be, if someone said,

I need you to help me work for eight hours versus showing up to a coffee shop

and saying, you know, just being immediately vulnerable and like kind of asking for that,

one scares me more than the other, right?

I'd rather go work, like I'd rather go chop wood for two weeks for you than for you to come up to me

and say like, so, you know, I'm just out of, you know, a bad relationship and you know, all these things.

It's like, wow, okay, my goodness. And so I think just a way for to naturally find friends

is to be vulnerable in some simpler ways.

Ask somebody to do yard work, ask somebody to do.

Come help you change your oil. Like, especially guys, guys like to do things together

and I really enjoy doing things with other guys because we like to fix things.

Come help me, like my friends and I have just realized like, why, why do we keep doing all of our oil changes on our own? Like, let's all park

our cars together and I'll do our oil changes. And then maybe we'll figure out how to do,

I don't know. We'll, we'll do somebody's suspension to, um, guys like to be physical. So I think

that's a natural way to start to bridge the vulnerability gap in a way that's not be my,

deep friend right now. Those types of things are much wider front doors to walk, to walk

through. That's a much easier door to walk through than like you said, you know, hey,

because it, it, it speaks to the situation that you, you know, were describing about like that,

person that just rushes in with the emotional vulnerability that is too much.

And that you know typically is the ways in which my friendships have been developed, you know, they start somewhere else,

You know, they start on the jiu-jitsu mat or they start, you know in,

Police car or they start somewhere else, you know other environments where I'm you know, they start here too, you know.

But that yeah that that that door becomes a little bit wider, yeah Yeah. Yeah.

And just to be clear, when you say in a police car, not like putting someone in the back,

of the police car or someone might need your context for that.

Some people might know, others might not know that I work with Sheriff's Office here in

the county and as a peer to them and work in chaplaincy and

wellness for officers and employees of the sheriff's office and their family. And some of my most significant

friendships have come through, you know, that work with. And so

yeah, I'm not, I've never been arrested. Yeah. In the back of a police car.

Right. Yeah. So just wanted to clarify that in case anyone got super confused. You've never been in the back of a police car? Well I've been in the back of a

police car but not with handcuffs on because I did something I shouldn't have, you know, so.

So but yeah I do think that there is a.

It's a, it's a risk to make friends. Yeah. And I think I, I, the thing that encourages me that,

or at least I have to tell myself when I'm trying to make a friend is like,

they are probably looking for friendship as much as I am. Yep.

Let's just try and get on the same page. The, the, the,

the chances of you finding somebody who is so deeply involved in so many

friendships and fully comfortable within their friend group is, It's slim to none.

I think it's clear that that need is so prevalent for everybody.

We just have a loss. We don't have the relationships of, you know,

like the Last Supper being able to lean,

truly lean on a friendship in the deepest, darkest parts of our vulnerability

and feeling a full, comfortable ability to trust that.

People do sometimes ask me like, what does it take? And I'm like, I don't know if you figure it out, like let me know.

But in general, you know, like the answer of, well, being the type of friend that you want others to be,

or need others to be for you is a really good start.

You know, like attracts like, so to speak. So if you're having a sense of like,

well, how do I find or develop a type of friendship that, you know, like I feel like my soul needs,

you know, a pretty generalized answer to that is, well, are you to others whom you need?

And what I've found is that that tends to.

That tends to, I guess for lack of a better term, it tends to work. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, let us, you know, I think, try and be Christ for other people in some to some degree

and inside of the form of contact or friendship and stuff. So, yeah. Well, I think that's probably

enough for today. Yeah. Yeah. But thanks for joining us, Silas. Yeah. Yeah. Helping us to,

speak on the topic. I'm sure we'll return to it in some way, shape or form. If you have questions,

about this podcast or you have questions in general where we like we say we are always

looking for questions to do mailbag episodes we've done a few of those so far we're still,

looking for those the text line if you want to text in a question or a comment or whatever 716,

201 0507. I think that's it yeah I don't have my little um it'll be on the screen and in the

the description. Yeah. Yeah. Look at the description, not my

words, because I don't, I'm still relying on my sticky note to say it, but I think it's two zero one zero five zero seven

seven one six there. Um, yeah. And, uh, text in any questions or comments that you have, as always, please like it, rate it

and share it in whatever format that you are listening to it. It helps to get more exposure, I think on this, our 20th podcast,

Yeah, I think so.

Episode. So, thanks for joining us, Silas. My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Yep, have a good day. Go.