Leading with Consistency

Music.

I'm Pastor Luke. And I am Pastor Peter. And this is the Uncut Podcast, where we have,

uncut, honest conversations about faith, life, and ministry. Today we are back in the office

after having kind of been out of the office for part of the week last week. We were traveling.

We weren't not in the state of New York. We were in the grand city of Chicago.

Which was fun for me because I spent some time spent a couple years in Chicago, but we were,

There to go to a leadership,

Conference, that's it. Yeah leadership conference They call the summit but yeah, it makes it sound like a fancy word for a conference. Yeah

Yeah.

But Global Leadership Summit, which is a conference put on by the Global Leadership Network.

How many years have you been watching or participating on it?

It's something we've done every year since I've been here on staff.

We've done it here every year that I've been on staff here.

So that would be eight years. Okay, so for eight years in some form,

we've been watching like online. Eight or nine years, yeah.

So is this the first time you had gone in person? This was the first time that I had actually gone in person.

Usually, or for the first number of years that I had gone,

including the first year that you went with us, we joined another church, local church Hillcrest,

to watch the simulcast there at that location.

And then I think maybe the last, well, not the last two years,

but last year you guys watched it here while I was on sabbatical.

And then I wanna say the year before that, the year before you came,

we actually watched it here as well.

We didn't go to Hillcrest, so we watched it here. Yeah, I've kind of like, I think I've watched it online

or either after the fact, a couple of times.

But you never went when you lived in Chicago? No, even though I was like a half hour away

from the actual conference.

I think I just ended up watching it online in Chicago. It was cheaper that way,

even though I didn't have any travel costs.

But yeah, so I'd watch it online And maybe a couple times, but it's...

Well, you know, I take that back. There might have been two years,

there were definitely two years where we did a church leadership conference out in California.

Oh, yeah. We went to Catalyst. Did that instead? I think we did that instead for two years. Yeah. Yeah.

But they don't do that conference anymore. They don't do that. I don't think so. I I was,

Catalyst, was that the same people who were doing exponential?

I don't know it catalyst I can't i'm not completely sure but I think catalyst came out of,

Or maybe i'm wrong there Like I said, I want I know that north point community church and andy stanley was

a significant like player in Catalyst.

But they did a Catalyst East in Georgia at his church, and they did a Catalyst West in Orange County, California

at Mariner's Church.

But I don't think they do it anymore. I don't even know if, I think I remember looking,

trying to look up and see when the next Catalyst conference was, and it was like

you couldn't find any information about it at all. Because it was like.

Maybe like the domains expired and everything.

Yeah, but I gotta imagine if there was a conference that they would have a domain.

Yeah. It was pretty big.

It was a pretty big conference. Right, yeah, yeah. So, yeah.

Yeah, so anyways. Yeah, so this was the first year that we went.

Yeah. At least that I went.

And the experience of sitting through something live was much better than sitting through something simulcast,

even though Hillcrest has always done a great job hosting us. Totally.

But yeah, just the, you know, the energy.

Both the energy in the room and like my own personal energy to like sit through all those sessions,

Mm-hmm was much higher. Yeah, then,

simulcasting it so I thought it was a good experience and I It's kind of I think we all talked as a staff team,

towards the end about,

like What are we committing to never watching a simulcast conference again because the in-person experience was so much better

Well, it there was just like such a big shift from like.

We're not in town and so people know we're not in town and then people can't get a hold of us,

To ask us to do things or delay it, you know, so there's a little bit it was a little bit easier

I think to get some separation from the,

Stuff that's happening here around, you know around town or even just at home because we were just like okay done for the day at the conference

Let's go get something to eat and hang out the hotel room. We're not going home and doing chores or anything like that

So there was even just a little bit more,

Mental separation to kind of be more fully present with ideas. Yeah. Yeah,

I think the only thing that could have probably made the conference better for me is if my wife,

Yeah, I could have been there because you know, you feel bad being Away for you know, four days three nights

nights. Yeah. I felt very lucky. My wife was able to join us.

That was a big highlight because she loves that types of stuff, type of stuff.

And so when our two worlds got to kind of meet like that in this kind of leadership context, it was really fun for us. Yeah. So.

Um, so yeah, it was a really, I think, you know, I, it was my favorite, uh, favorite conference, I guess I've been to,

if I had to pick one, probably would be it.

Yeah.

But we sat through, how many speakers was that? I wanna see like, I wanna see Surtr's like...

Three two Five two more seven a day. Yeah, 14 speakers 14 speakers may be 14 to 16 speakers. That's a lot

It's a lot And I even felt bad for some of them because it seemed like some of them were just getting going and they were like

Oh, my time is up. We'll see you. So they had a really short,

Someone had a really short window. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, because like, at any, like, the thing too is that almost, almost any of those speakers

could have been keynote speakers at another conference, like a singular keynote.

They probably have been.

Right. And so like, they're used to giving, you know, coming to a conference and they're the highlight

talk, and they've got like, maybe two or three highlight talks that they maybe get to give

inside of a day or two days.

But when each and every single speaker is at that level, you know, like...

Yeah, I think they do a good job at making... of not promoting one person as the keynote.

No one's the big draw. No. Although there kind of is. There kind of is.

There kind of is. Well, and maybe it depends on who you are.

Right. Right. What kind of environment you're in.

Yeah. One of the names I was more familiar with was James Clear,

author of Atomic Habits, who was there.

So if you're really into his stuff and you've listened to that, you would be really,

he could end up being the draw for you. But if you're not as familiar with some of the other names.

Yeah, I mean, if you're in the church world, and names like Craig Rochelle.

Pretty much one of the biggest names, right? Well, I feel like we end up talking about him a lot on this podcast.

We do, yep. Because we listen to his podcast and interact with a lot of his content.

Yep, and we stay in the same hotel as he stays in when we go to the conference.

Unintentionally, but... Unintentionally.

But others would be like Albert Tate, who's a pastor in California, but I saw that he's also

a teaching pastor at Willow Creek.

Oh, he is? Yeah. Okay.

So Albert Tate, Patrick Lencioni, who's a Catholic, but we love him still.

Who else? Well, there's... I mean, like, that's just like the ones that you normally see at church conferences.

Church conferences, yeah.

But there were also other big names. There were some other big names. Condoleezza Rice.

Yep. She was a big name. She was a big name in the world.

They had her videoed in, there was the, oh am I gonna be bad and forget his name, I'm

blanking on it right now, The Chosen, the director.

Dallas Jenkins. Dallas Jenkins of The Chosen, they had a video interview with him, which was really fascinating.

Erwin McManus. Erwin McManus. famous church guy. Um...

Ryan leak who stood out as one of my favorites from the from the conference.

We should have got the notebook with us so that we could name Specifically some of the other ones but well, there was a lady last name was color doctor professor. Dr. Elber's,

Harvard Enjoyed her talk did a fantastic job talking about,

just like essentially pursuing.

Not like Never being complacent in the like intensity of your leadership Striving for excellence. Yeah, and how that can change and turn around and change organizations,

What would so that's kind of like a flyby and if you are interested if you're listening and or watching and you're interested in leadership

content, you know, I would really encourage you both on your social media and

and you can go to the website and sign up for their mailing list

and just kind of consume as much material as they have.

The Global Leadership Network.

And highly, highly, highly recommend them as a group. They're not even specifically oriented

towards church leaders, although many of them are.

Church leaders. And they have a very much Christian worldview that orients them a little bit,

but they are very much just trying to get good leadership content into people's hands.

Right, so what would you, after reflecting, you know, here we are, almost a week since we've been back. Yep, yep.

What would be some of the biggest takeaways for you on the week?

You know, like, uh...

I think the one, I think there's two that come to mind. The first one that comes to mind is, and this, it's funny because it came out in a couple

of the different speakers and their talks, but I think James Clear said it the best,

which is interesting because as much as I really liked James Clear's talk, I knew most

of it because I'd read his book.

It's a fantastic book, Atomic Habits.

But he has a concept in there. I'm not gonna get this exactly right, but he talks about the,

accumulative effect of the 1%,

All right. I I Love new things like as just like a individual I love like new ideas new concepts starting new things new technology,

and I love finding like solutions for things and so that kind of leads me to be disposed,

towards finding silver bullets at times and

And it's something I know about myself that like sometimes you just got to sit down and you got to grind a little bit.

But he's kind of this idea of the cumulative effect of the 1% of saying what is,

What are I was kind of as I've been thinking about it my own life. I've been asking the question of what are the leaky faucets in.

My life my personal life my professional life spiritual life that are just these small little things

things that if I were to take care of them, it would increase like my effectiveness by

even 5%.

You know, that's kind of like when you've got like that to do list of things that's

like, well, you've got like, because we've all got to do lists and we got those things

on that to do list that kind of just sit on the back burner because they never are urgent

enough for us to take care of.

But they're always like taking up brain space, taking up like emotional space.

What if we were to just like tackle that, you know?

He gave the example from, do you remember the cycling team? Was it the British cycling team?

Or was it the French cycling team? It was one of the European cycling teams

that participates in the Tour de France.

And they were not winning at all. They weren't doing very well.

They're very mediocre.

And they decided to do a bunch of really small things as a team in order to build a cumulative effect that

they kind of attribute to their winning streak that they've been having.

Things like figuring out which pillow the racers slept best with and then always having that pillow with them when they traveled.

Or the truck that they transported the...

Bicycles in painting the inside of it white so that they could make sure the trailer was,

Spick spot clean, you know No dirt so that there was no dirt that would get in the gears and slow the performance of the bike

Like those really really small things,

and you're like, how would that have like that seems like so much overkill to you know to,

Get so specific on something like that, but the cumulative effect of it over time

So that's a big one for me that's kind of sitting with me.

Right, right. And that is, like we can recognize that in, like the way I like to think about that,

and I know I've used this analogy or this example in my preaching before is.

We say this the same about the cumulative effect of small sin, which we think is,

well, it's not that big a deal.

It's just, it's tiny, right? so I'm not gonna really stress over it too much

or work to have the Lord release me or free me from that,

or give me victory over that because it's just a little small thing.

When we get one degree, just one degree off kilter or off center, and you travel with that one degree

long enough, when you get to the proverbial destination,

you are 90 degrees off course, right?

You're very far off course. Right, like the standard illustration is like what,

from New York, traveling to California,

Seattle or something like that, and you're off by like so many degrees,

you'll end up in Los Angeles, which is very far apart.

Yes, very far apart. So the opposite is also true.

When you stack little degrees of habits or practices or fixing this leaky faucet or fixing

that leaky faucet, eventually you have all your water pressure back.

Oh yeah, that's a really good example. I actually missed the first part of James' talk because I had gotten a phone call, but

I missed the story about the cycling team.

I never heard it, but yeah, I think that there was some...

Some of the same, I don't know, sentiment or like leadership culture-ish stuff was in.

Anita, I think it's Anita, her name, Harvard, Dr., Professor Dr. Elbers,

when she told the story about the F1 racing team she was studying. Yeah, the Mercedes.

The Mercedes. The Mercedes racing team. Formula 1 racing.

Yeah, and how they had similar to the cycling team had was poor performance,

They hired a new manager,

And he really turned around the racing team now. They're one of the most successful and,

Like what were the things that he did?

And There were all kinds of things that he did that were seemingly periphery to actual racing,

Yeah.

One of the major examples that she gave was that at the racing headquarters,

he hired a custodian yeah,

And on the day that he hired the custodian he took them. He took the custodian into the bathroom. Yeah, and,

he spent I I don't like this is hard for me to even fathom. Whether this is a hyperbole or or not,

Supposedly He spent eight hours with the custodian,

Showing him how he expected the bathroom to look how he wanted the bathroom to be cleaned,

And like trained him on like some one person goes into the bathroom you go back in after them and you clean up

Immediately after that. Yes, I make sure it's perfect all the time. Yeah. Yeah, and so it did a few things one it,

Showed it made the employee the custodian Miguel. I think it's his name was yeah

I think it it told Miguel how important his job was Yeah, like he that the manager,

Like built up the importance of a job that a lot of people would think is a menial job

but that he felt was like every little bit of.

I think it was more about not necessarily the way the bathroom looked as it was developing a culture of.

Not accepting anything other than the very best in everything that happens and everything that we do.

Very much about culture, it's not about the bathroom, it's about the culture.

It's about the culture, it's about the culture that expects things to be well done,

and excellent and taken care of and the details, looked after, the T's dotted and the I's crossed.

You know what I mean. And so she talked a lot about that,

But then Dallas Jenkins, the director of The Chosen,

used a phrase that really stuck with me and that I'm really wanting to implement here,

or just in my life in general, is about,

he said, sanding the underside of the drawer. Yeah, because they were talking about building the set

on which they filmed The Chosen and the amount of detail they've put into building that set.

It's like we've essentially we've sanded the underside of the doors There's we've put effort into details that will never ever be on camera or you will never be able to see or notice, right?

Because It was about the culture of the thing that they were doing. Yeah, it was about creating this culture of.

Attention to detail and the cumulative attention to detail over time creating significant results.

And so, we've been talking about, as it pertains to, or even the building that we have

this ministry in, Kanu is in,

and we have like the front faces of our drawers.

That aren't sanded in some places, right? We're being vulnerable today.

Yeah, so we have like the things that people use every day that aren't Sanded. Yeah, so,

beginning to shift that culture not because we desire to be overly materialistic or focus on things that are important but

because of.

If we don't care about the things that are small and menial, like the cleanliness of the bathroom,

it does begin to create questions around like, well, what do you, like, do you have the.

Wherewithal to care about the big things? You know, I think someone on our leadership team

here, I kind of a few weeks ago asked the question about like, are we aware of how we

are stewarding all the things that we have. There was a situation that came up, it was clear that

we had kind of missed something administratively years ago, and it led to the question of like,

okay, what else has God entrusted us with that we are not...

Not taking stock of. Taking stock of, stewarding. And it's not a, I feel like it would be really easy, not easy, but like it, it's not like.

You know, I think one of the things that like has drawn me to Conduit and like I really

appreciate is that like the authenticity that we have at the core of a lot of our culture.

We, you know, we've very much prioritized, like, let's, let's be authentic. Let's be real. Let's be like genuine. And so

sometimes we've, you know, we're, I don't think we're in danger of being whitewashed to, I don't think so. Yeah. And so,

but it is, there always is the danger, but I don't think we

are. Sure. And so I don't think, you know, it's not an effort to maybe clean things up because of, um.

To create an appearance, to create like a falseness. It's just a like, because it's,

you know, I feel this and think about this in like our own, in like my workspace, right? We

were talking about like, how good it feels to sit down at a desk that's clear of clutter,

of like, if I have like all these papers and things that like I haven't dealt with, and like,

Maybe it's a paper from a couple months ago or from a week ago, and I'm done with it

And I just haven't gotten it off my desk yet,

like I sit down and I'm feeling like the stress of just all the stuff on my desk or,

For you, maybe it's like, uh the entryway to your home if you're walking into your entryway,

You've got like a mudroom and your mudroom is just where everything gets tossed.

Why don't you just hashtag me just just at just at me There are a bunch of shoes as you come into our apartment

There's a bunch of everything when you come into my house And you're just like, if that's the first thing that hits you when you come in, how does that impact you?

Like when you're coming home and you're like, ah, do I feel good to be home?

Or do you like, huh, this stuff, like everything, you know? So it's asking those questions of like,

how does that impact people who come on a Sunday morning?

Because we often say on Sunday mornings, we say, welcome home, right?

We desire conduit to be a place that people can find to be a relational, spiritual home.

But if you're coming into your home, into a place that we want you to feel like home,

and it's not taking care of physically in a place,

and it doesn't help you feel invited, where there's an unnecessary obstacle there to that goal.

Yeah, and all of that is, well, I don't know if it's all connected to it, but there was

an interesting activity that Craig Groeschel did at the end of his talk, which was the first talk.

And you've heard us fanboy over Craig a lot. It's funny because I've listened to the GLS a couple of times, and he's always the first

speaker because he's kind of the public face for it.

He does a lot of promotion for it over the course of the year.

And usually you don't put your strongest speaker at the first part, but almost every year I

walk out saying, I don't know. His talk was still probably the best.

Yeah. Like I walk out hearing his first talk and I'm just like, well,

it was worth the price of coming here. Yep. You know? Yeah.

He did a talk at the beginning about how to develop trust as a leader. How do we develop

trust? Cause if we are in an, maybe we are in an era where people are having a difficult time

trusting leaders. So what are the things that develop trust? He had three main things that

that he thought developed trust.

Number one, transparency.

Can you be transparent?

And well, I should back up. And he said, I'm gonna tell you my three things.

And then at the end, I'm gonna ask you to stand up to identify which of these three things

you need to work on most in your leadership journey.

All right, so the first was transparency. You know, and that goes down,

that went down from just being personally vulnerable to being able to clearly communicate,

the things of your organization or your church or whatever, like make sure you're communicating

because whatever people aren't up on, they're down on.

You know?

And there was a little bit in that transparency thing, more from like I think a,

Well, there's personal transparency that needs to be, like...

That I need, certainly need to do better at being more vulnerable with my team.

And I don't know what to do or when I don't have the answer.

And, you know, or whatever, but like be more transparent. Right. Yeah.

And then it was, the second was empathy. So that the old adage, people don't care how much,

what you know, until they know how much you care, um, and, you know, having a,

a kind of a people centered view of leadership.

And I felt really good when he was talking about empathy. Cause I was like,

I mean, like, I don't, I don't know what the last one is,

but I know empathy is not the main leadership issue here. Yeah. We're very,

we're a very empathetic team. Um,

sometimes so empathetic that we end up like absorbing the other's issues, right?

We care deeply. Care deeply.

And then the third was consistency.

So leaders need to be transparent, they need to be empathetic,

and they need to be consistent.

Yep, it's not about what you do once, it's about what you do all the time. Yes, right.

Yeah, good leaders do consistently what all others only do occasionally, which was his motto.

And he talked a little bit more about consistency and he was like, okay, stand up for transparency.

None of our team stood up. No, right. Okay, stand up for empathy.

None of our team stood up.

Okay, stand up for creating, you know, like consistency and our whole team stood up all of us.

Which I knew that was definitely for me. And that, you know, I was gonna, but I was surprised

that our whole that it was the thing for our whole team. So it was revealing to me and interesting

to me and I'm, I'm, I'm eager to develop that as a team.

And I think probably one of the things that is, one of the things that is most, I don't,

want to say difficult for me post something like GLS is there's times where you, where

you get really encouraged for sure.

Yup. But there's also times where you come away just being really challenged about the.

Deficiencies in your leadership, or at least I came away being really, really challenged

about the deficiencies in my leadership, trying not to be discouraged about them,

but a little bit of discouragement there.

But then coming back into the, into the fray, into the grind, and trying to wrestle with, okay.

How much of this do I need to do all at once?

And does it show a lack of, does it show a lack of like awareness of my deficiencies

if I don't tackle everything at once?

Do I need to tell everyone as a leader, okay, here are the things that I wanna work on over the next year?

Or do I just take them like one by one or do I take the whole list of things

that I feel like God really asking me to work on and do I prioritize them and rank them

and then just kind of like click them off.

And so I come away from GLS and other times like that feeling, having a little bit more clarity.

Having a little bit more discouragement, having a little bit more encouragement simultaneously,

but also wondering kind of, okay,

how do I begin to tackle the deficiencies,

in a healthy way, and how do I know,

when's the right time to move from deficiency number one to deficiency number two?

And how do the people that I lead perceive me as I'm leading through that?

Which was another question that just like, oh my gosh.

It was a question from, was it Ryan Leak? Ryan Leak, which I'm reading his book,

Leveling Up Your Leadership, which is great.

And he asked the question, or he encouraged us to ask the question,

What's it like to be on the other side of you?

Like that's a great question fantastic question. I don't want anyone to actually answer it. I'm afraid of what am I here? You know

Because I have a sense of what what it's probably like to be on the other side of me. I don't really like it. Yeah,

And so But yeah, it just so it lends to that Craig if you're out there listening since you're the leadership goat

So, do a leadership podcast on how to process through a thing like GLS where you have maybe

10 things that you want to integrate into your leadership.

How do you do that in a way that keeps you not feeling absolutely drowned or paralyzed

in the immensity of the tasks that are before you? how do we run a marathon, not a sprint?

Which is what you said to me, Mr. Leadership guy, when I came here on staff.

I don't know if you remember, I remember this very, very keenly because it was for me a confirmation

that I had ended up at the right place.

I think it was within the first couple of months of being here on staff and I was still kind of figuring out the ropes.

I was like, what does it mean to be on staff here? are the things I'm supposed to be doing?" And I came to you, and I was like, Cameron, I.

Just want to do ministry. I just want to do more. I was just coming. I was like,

what's, what do you want me to do? I was like offering to start like five ministries at once

And you were just like,

take care of yourself and just hold on. You'll get there, you'll be doing plenty soon enough,

and you're like, we're doing a marathon on a sprint. And I was just like, wow, he's right.

And partly, I was just amazed, because I don't know if... I don't know. There's not very many

pastors when you have people come to them and say, I wanna do more, that the pastor says,

don't do more. We're constantly... We feel like there's so much to do.

But that's been in my mind, even today, earlier today, I was like sitting and

going through my list of things and I was like, Ooh, how do I not get burned

out trying to make all of these big changes at once?

How do I just like slowly tick away at the things that like I can, I can knock

off my list, sustainable pace, a sustainable pace, 26.4 miles, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. So I'm definitely resonating with that question of like, how do I.

How do I affect long-term change? You know, it's, yeah, I don't know if anyone's listening

and you've got a solution to it. But, um, Eugene Peterson has a book,

titled Long Obedience in the Same Direction. And that's kind of like what I want

It's not my, it's an oversimplification,

my leadership or pastoral journey to be when I'm dead and gone,

when people don't remember my name anymore.

It was a long obedience in the same direction. It wasn't flashy.

It wasn't like, of course I think every leader.

And every pastor wants to change the world, and I do, but it wasn't like charismatically world-changing.

I just want it to be, I want my kids to be able to be, like my dad served the Lord and served the church,

and loved his family for 50 years or however long, a pastor and did so without like the the need for or the actual presence of the

accolades of men, long obedience, same direction.

Yeah.

And when you say that, that makes me think of like, um, makes me think of a couple of things. But one of the things is that like,

when it, there's this principle that, uh, I'm sure somebody smarter than me has got a name for it,

but there seems to be this principle in life of like, the thing that we chase is the thing that we, uh,

have probably like the hardest time getting and holding onto.

But then when we finally come to a place where that is not the thing that we must have, is when we find that we have that thing in abundance.

Like, if you want to chase the accolades of men, you won't get them, or you won't ever be satisfied by them when you get them. Yeah.

But if you're willing to pursue, like, the will of God and to be faithful and to take the

opportunities that are in front of you, you very well might find yourself up with the accolades of

men, but very unconcerned that you now do have them.

Right. Right, yeah. It's similar to what Jesus said to the disciples about the Pharisees' public prayers.

Yeah. they say really intricate prayers out in the public street or out on the street corner

to get the praise of men, they have it, that is their reward.

Right.

Or maybe he says that about their giving or their tithing or something like that.

I think there's two. There's praying, the tithing, the fasting.

Yeah, the same thing. You have a big, huge outward display of your personal righteousness

and people think you are just an amazing man of God because of it, that is the reward you receive.

You receive the praises of men as a reward, but not the praises of the Lord. You don't receive

that. So yeah, I think you're spot on there about what your heart wants and desires and when it

and it gets it, how does it, you know, like,

the reason for which you ran after it it will determine how you feel when you actually get it.

Because I'm always, this is like a little thing I always throw in, but like it's a.

We're limited in every single capacity of ourselves as humans, right? Except for what

we desire. We always want more. We always want another good meal. We always want another good

experience, we always want more affirmation. If you're someone who, like, if you've ever

dealt with like, chasing approval, or chasing the opinions or people pleasing, you know

that like, yeah, you're one bad comment away from spiraling over your self worth, right?

We always want more of something. Our desires, our heart is the one thing about ourselves

that is infinite. And that points to the fact that we were meant to fill ourselves not with

finite things, but something infinite. And there is only one infinite thing, and that's God,

right? It's Christ. It's, you know, was it Blaise Pascal that said that idea in the concept of a

God-shaped hole inside of our souls? Only one thing can fill it. And so if we're chasing accolades,

that we're chasing success, we get those things, those things

are our only temporary, it will feel really good in the moment,

but give it a little bit and it will start to leak out. And we will find we're still wanting something. We just don't know

what yeah, yep. Yeah.

Well,

do we call that? Call it Okay. So thank you everyone for listening, for, um, you know, listening in on this conversation.

Let us know your thoughts, your comments, your questions, things that sparked things

for you or places you'd want to hear us go. Um, we might return to some of these as we

kind of think and process them more over the coming weeks and yeah, we're going to try

and continue to be consistent here on the podcast. It's one place we can practice that rule.

If you want to send us a comment or a question, you can do that through leaving anywhere on the

comments, but also through our text line. Cameron, do you remember our text line?

716-267-0157. Oh, wow.

Well, that's it, folks. Thanks for joining us.

Music.