Do Jesus & Politics Mix?

Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke.

I am Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut Podcast, where we have uncut, honest conversations about faith, life, and ministry.

Today, we're sitting down on a gloomy afternoon. and has got his Reliable Ghost Energy Drink.

This is one of the better ones that I've had, actually. Yeah, what kind are we drinking?

Sour Patch Blue Raspberry.

Wow, that just sounds like, does it just taste like candy?

A little bit, a little bit, but these have zero sugar.

Okay. So just, I'm sure it's all natural, as you can see by the colors on the container.

Yeah, that looks super natural. Yeah, sour patch energy drink is definitely all natural.

Yeah, I mean, the sweetness, I'm sure, since it wasn't obtained with sugar, was not obtained

anywhere else. These are one of my guilty pleasures.

There's only 200 milligrams of caffeine, which is about a cup of coffee.

Yeah, except Cameron, it's the middle of the afternoon. Listen, I got a lot to do today, so I don't intend to go home anytime soon, so it's three

o'clock. I'll be here for a while. Oh, boy.

Well, to tell you the difference between Cameron and I, I'm drinking a lime, bubbly, sparkling water.

Well, I usually drink those. You do?

I had a flavored water for Wegmans that I've been nursing since lunchtime, and just finished

it before I came down here, so I don't – well, yeah.

I have about one, I have one energy drink a day. I have one energy drink a day.

That's, I mean, whatever. Just let me live my life.

Yeah, man, I'll let you live your life. I'm one of those annoying people who doesn't drink coffee

because I think it makes me more better.

You're so sophisticated. So sophisticated, because I only drink tea.

When I was, so a couple years ago, I went to a place called Onsite,

And it is a, it's a, how would I describe it?

On-site is a place where, they call it human school. They do, like the executive director calls it human school

where you just go to learn how to be a better human.

Which really is like becoming more emotionally aware and maybe like dealing with some trauma in your life.

I'd say it's a mental health and wellness like retreat center. Yeah.

I went for a full week and they had, they have people come in from all over the world.

It's a very, I was very blessed to be able to go.

Very well-renowned place.

And there were a couple of guys there from the UK, specifically from England.

And I was like, all right guys, here's what I need you to do for me.

Before this week is out, I need you to teach me how to make a proper cup of English tea.

Yeah, like how it's like, you go to America, like, well, how do you drink your coffee in America?

Well, I mean, you're gonna have a little, you drink a black, just drink a black, right?

So like if you were gonna go to England, if I was gonna sit down at a little cafe

in London and I asked for a cup of tea, how would they make it for me?

Or how would they assume that I would have it made?

And so one afternoon they taught me how to make a proper cup of tea.

And for the first few months that I was back from on-site, I was drinking a proper cup of tea every day.

So did you like put milk in it?

Yep. And all that? Yeah, which I never thought would be like a thing or would be good, but it really was.

Okay, well I'll have to try that sometime Because I've seen videos and I'm like, no, because I usually just drink my tea.

I just brew it the specified time and stuff and then I don't really add much to it.

Maybe if I'm feeling wild, I'll put honey in it.

Yeah, and it was Earl Grey, Earl Grey, you know, black Earl Grey breakfast tea with milk

and not steeped as long as I would usually like steep it.

Yeah. I don't steep it for a long time. People over steep tea. Yeah.

Um, look at us, just a bunch of regular dudes talking about our tea habits. I know.

Look at us. I hope none of you are looking at us because this is, uh, well, anyway, since we last met,

um, we, um, our, um, exhortation to subscribe to the channel has been heard.

Um, we are now sitting at a solid 44, 44. So, um, we've gained six subscribers in the last week.

We did. So thank you to all of you who subscribed. I know a couple of you who were like, you know,

asking me like, Hey, what, you have a YouTube channel or where's the channel, you know?

So, um, appreciate you subscribing on YouTube.

So, um, yeah, that's right. I forget that people subscribe other places too.

It's not just, yeah, it's not just YouTube. It's on like, which is way harder to see if

you're like interested in the, behind the podcasting stuff.

It's like, it's a little bit harder to track Actual subscribers across like the audio.

Platform I'm sure there's ways to do it, but maybe we're just not paying enough for whatever service to do it, right?

You know, but it's a little bit harder to track, you know, but we can see the downloads. We can't necessarily see the subscribers, but,

Anyways, so thank you for subscribing and as always, you know, you guys can be sending in

and your comments and questions and things you'd be interested to hear us talking about.

And yeah, let us know what kind of resonates with you guys. I'm curious as to like, what is it?

We're still figuring out the podcast itself is like, what exactly is it gonna be?

And I mean, it is something and we're continuing down that track,

but we're constantly kind of evaluating of like, what direction are we?

Are we trying to go in a direction we're just kind of letting it be and so interested to hear what people resonate with and what's

Good for your soul.

Before we turned on the microphone, Cameron gave me permission to bring up any topic,

and we would just go with it, which is the amount of trust he has in me, apparently.

Well, I did it to you a couple of weeks ago when I asked you your definition of success.

Oh, yeah, that's true. That's true.

Because, see, sometimes I think that, like, so we do have a running list of things that we,

like, okay, we could probably talk about that, or we could talk about that.

What happens with me is I overthink it, and I get in my head,

and I think about what I'm going to say, and I don't say what I actually would say,

or want to say. So I think this is a better method sometimes.

Yeah. Well, let's talk about a topic that we've like perennially like suggested and

we've just never gotten around to it because it probably feels really big. So let's just,

do it, talk about it, go uncut. And let's just talk about politics.

Politics. Because election year is coming.

You know. It's pandemic year. I mean, election year. Oh,

did I say that in the way you did say that in the microphone? Um, yeah.

So that means a whole bunch of stuff, right? We've got like all that stuff starting to kick into gear, politicians,

you know, every, the presidential elections are, are coming. And so.

Um, and the last, I don't know, elections are always kind of at least since I've been conscious and able to

vote elections have tended to be just kind of very angsty and stressful

seasons yeah I don't so I remember back my the earliest memory that I have of

an election was the presidential election where Clinton won his first

term. Junior or? President Clinton. Oh, Clinton. Bush. Yeah. And he beat senior. Okay. He beat,

George Bush. I don't remember that one. I think I remember a different, I remember some of Clinton's

presidency, but I don't remember what I remember of it. Yeah. So. So I remember, I remember when

And he won first term, I remember back then.

And I, so, memory serves me, I would have been like 12 or 13 years old.

Maybe not even that, like, no, maybe like 10, somewhere around there, 10, 11, 12. Early 90s.

And I don't remember it being super contentious. or at least not the type of contentiousness that it is now.

And then even as I look back into.

Like George W. Their, his campaigns. I don't remember it being,

I mean I remember it being like, you know, they're all trying to win, obviously.

But I don't remember it being, I don't remember the rhetoric being as,

like, the whole milieu around it all being as toxic as it is now.

And even somewhat into like Obama's first term, even his second term, it just felt different.

It feels different. I remember Obama's elections and those felt contentious,

if you were listening to talk radio.

At least in my mind. I remember, well, if you turned on the radio and you listened to certain channels

depending on which side you were, it felt really contentious. Right.

And I don't know, maybe it's just, you know, our youth just kind of looking backwards and... Yeah.

Obviously we're just less, like, involved or whatever, and older and less, I don't know,

vested or whatever. But then there's also, like, you think about, like, you know, the shift in media

since then. Like I cannot remember who wrote the book or who did the talk or

where I've heard this. I can't remember if it was maybe another podcast or whatever.

But I remember listening to somebody talk about the impact that the camera has had on politics. Right. Because like they used to be that, you know.

You didn't have live cameras recording every single political congressional Senate hearing.

And when that started happening, and then people said, and then people started not just doing

politics in order to kind of like negotiate or win votes or go back and forth for the people

in the room, but started speaking for the camera, which isn't a politician, it's just the newsrooms

Like, and how that has shifted politics and that, like, um, I remember seeing somebody

who's a politician, I don't remember, not involved from the state or whatever, but he

kind of, he was like, look, there's people in the government who play big and bad, like

politician and have this big, like public persona they put on.

But the moment the camera's not recording, they are an entirely different person.

They just put, they have one way because they want to act that way because it gets them

constituents versus like when they're actually doing their job and being, and being a real

politician, they act and behave totally different.

So I don't know, there's, you know, shocked. Yeah.

I'm not shocked either, but, um, if, if you're so interested, that would probably, I think

that'd be a really interesting place to explore is the impact that media has had.

We've shifted from like the, well, you know, Nightly news on CBC or CBS to like, you know.

24-hour news cycles and internet and how that's changed the way we talk about things. Well, I don't I'm I.

Don't recall. I want to say it was it was a debate with Nixon. Mm-hmm,

where and,

Maybe it was with Kennedy.

Yeah, I don't remember but I know what you're talking about the radio versus TV perception those who watch it on radio or listen to

to it on radio, thought that one person won, that Nixon won, those that watched it,

who could see the faces and see the people, thought that Kennedy won or whomever

the two characters were.

But yeah, well I think that like the, you're absolutely right that the impact

that media has had on the political atmosphere,

has really changed the way that even normal,

American people interact with the political cycles.

And I would say in particular or specifically social media, YouTube, things like that,

where now everyone has a voice.

Voice. Yeah. And.

And there's this weird, I feel like there's this weird phenomena where it's like all voices,

that you find online carry equal authority, even if they don't carry equal authority.

Yes.

You know, so like your crazy Christian aunt who posts something about conspiracy theory about,

about such and such political figure, right,

is because it's on the internet now,

holds, people grab onto it with the same level of authority that someone who is maybe like got a doctorate in theology

or has studied political science or who teaches the history of politics

history of politics and political movements at Harvard,

you know, so like, it feels like where people

put their authority or their trust or their belief,

has become quite twisted or strange.

Yeah, you know, like as you were saying that, I was like thinking and I was like, you know,

I was like, I was wondering, I was like, is that a generational thing?

Like, is it just the, I wanted to kind of point the finger at like the older generation and say like,

Yeah, they just kind of like, if it seemed, it almost looks like it's printed or whatever, then like.

But then if I actually sit and think critically about it, I'm like, no, how many people in like my generation

or younger generations like,

will believe the TikTok influencer who's telling you do X, Y, and Z with your money in the stock market,

or do this crazy diet, or how many people come to even you or I, Cameron,

and said, I saw this like video and like this explanation of like this thing, the end times or the Bible

or this Hebrew word means this or something like that.

All the freaking time. All the time. And we're just like, just stop paying attention,

to those people, because like, like.

So many of those things particularly like they're just wrong You know and so

And like I don't know there's even like a thing of like, you know, somebody was talking about like,

This rising trend of people who don't have podcasts but make internet videos to look like they have a podcast.

Because of the authority that seems to come with like placing a nice microphone in front of you and like

like having lighting and kind of look, you know, look what we're doing, right.

To kind of convey, oh, they, they must be important, you know,

cause we're kind of borrowing.

We've got an audience or a platform. Yeah. Cause we've got like this, like, like you think about this,

like where is this image originally go from? Like, this is like what, uh,

Larry King, the late night, like news host, which is like big.

Walter Congreight. Walter Congreight with these big, like big microphones right here. Like,

you know, we're borrowing imagery and like, there's like a, um,

a message to it, you know. So, like, if I were to get on here, if we were to get on here and maybe

tell you, like, we started giving you stock brokering advice, you should probably turn it

off because we have very little information to give you in that. Or we started giving medical

advice, you should ignore that. There are very few things that I would consider myself an expert on.

Right. What we strive to talk about is the Bible, theology, ministry, and the application of those

things to life, right? So even now we're talking about politics, I don't think either of us would

purport to be political theory experts. No, not at all.

And so that's not what we're going to, that's not what we're talking about. Nope.

We're not going to be like, oh, well, the history of, like, democracy, like, that's not.

We're just kind of like thinking, like, where does this intersect with the things that we know

and we're good at, and can we provide some context there.

What I yeah, yes, you're right. I back to that point like We see something on the internet and we just like latch on to it. Mm-hmm. Not always very discerningly,

What is your perspective on?

The way that Jesus,

Interacted with his political environment environment.

You know, he was like, cause let me qualify that why I'm asking the question.

The reason I'm asking the question is like, because I'm always,

I'm always struggling to know what the correct answer to the question,

of what,

what should be the Christians interaction in the political world now?

Like what level of advocacy, what level of support or unsupport, what level of like focus.

Or like emotional intensity should be given to it. And so my, if you're a Christian,

and you're not asking the question about all things in life,

Like, does Jesus have anything to say about this?

Then you're doing it wrong. You're doing it wrong. So, whether that would be my marriage,

or my job, or my relationship with whomever, or my money, or, you know, like, politics.

What would Jesus have to say? You know, Jesus had very little to say about politics,

at least in my evaluation.

He had a lot to say about the religious politics. Most of his interactions were with religious leaders

who had a political influence.

Like I don't wanna devoid and say that the Pharisees and the Sadducees and the Scribes,

that they were not a political entity at all because that's not entirely true.

They had some political power, but he was mostly interacting with them

on like how their teachings to the people,

their levying, you know, unreasonable religious burdens.

And their hypocritical ways of acting.

When Jesus interacted with the government, It was typically in a...

Kind of a, I don't wanna say completely standoffish, but it was just kind of.

It felt to me to be dismissive. Yeah, he just kind of was like,

cause like people tried to bait him, like the famous one is like, you know,

should you pay taxes?

I can't remember exactly how that got like, but Jesus was just like, you know,

look at the coin whose face is on it, right?

Caesar's given to Caesar what is Caesar's, right? this very dismissive way, you think of the dialogue,

between him and Pontius Pilate, right? And his dismissive of like,

your kingdom is nothing compared to my kingdom.

He was like, he basically told Pilate, yeah, you have authority, but you only have authority

because my father in heaven gives it to you.

You know, like, it doesn't, He was, he recognized its presence in the world

but was dismissive of its influence

in the mindset of his kingdom.

Right, or like in relation to his kingdom. Like, okay, yes, give to Caesars what is Caesars.

Essentially, who cares? Who cares? Give it to Caesar, who cares?

Or Pilate, like, yeah, I'm not really here to answer your questions.

And every time Pilate wanted to turn the conversation political, Jesus turned it back to Pilate's own soul.

Yeah. Kind of challenging Pilate. Yeah, are you the king of the Jews?

Jesus was like, who do you say that I am?

Right. What do you think?

And makes Pilate in the story very much feel, he looks kind of very much just carried along

and very much unwilling to be an active agent in anything. He washes his hands and stuff.

And I think when we consider what Jesus' interaction with politics or the political system in his context was,

I think it's important to recognize what it was,

you know, like we just talked about some of those things.

But also what it could have been and what he avoided it being. Yes.

Jesus, it's fairly well understood that most of Jesus' followers even.

And most of the religious leaders of the day had anticipated that the Messiah, Jesus,

would, or that the Messiah figure in general, that the Messiah would establish a earthly kingdom,

by defeating the occupying army who was in the Promised Land,

the Roman government at that time, and that he would reestablish headship, rulership, kingship

over the nation of Israel and its people and defeat, once for all,

the political machine that was the Roman Empire.

Yeah. You know, like, this is interesting because I've always heard that

and that's always kind of the backdrop when we talk about like Palm Sunday. I learned this detail this year that so you know the

Maccabean Revolt which is a Jewish rebellion that kicked out the Greeks before the Roman Empire came

in and they removed the Greeks and Israel had a small moment of kind of independence.

This is before Jesus? Before Jesus, before Jesus, before the Roman Empire.

They had removed the Greek Empire out of Israel and out of Jerusalem in particular. The Maccabeans

who were leading the revolt, they actually had a parade into Jerusalem where palms were laid down

and there was this triumphal entry moment. They came in and the time when Jesus is coming in,

the triumphal entry, Palm Sunday, as we call it, the Maccabean Revolt, the Maccabean celebration of

the independence of Jerusalem would have still been in the hearts and minds of people. It would

not have been, wasn't like it was just like 10 years ago, but it wasn't ancient history.

No.

Right. And so that's like as the backdrop of like people saying, is this the next

Maccabean to come and free us from the Roman government? So for me, that just made the

the parallelism even stronger, that that was a backdrop in people's minds.

ACW Well, and the memory of that for the Romans even was one of the things that made them a little

bit wary, not just of Jesus, but all political activists during the time, that what if this

charismatic leader rallied the Jews strong enough that they could essentially overthrow.

The empire here in Jerusalem.

And so they were vicious with political opponents, those types of leaders, to stamp them out

and to execute them so that that type of uprising didn't happen.

Now, Jesus was amassing a serious crowd of people, thousands upon thousands upon thousands of followers,

and seemed to be able to teach,

not just from a political standpoint, but knew their scriptures. Ciao.

And so was a multi-faceted leader. And so there was opportunity really at any time.

For Jesus to become or to insert himself in a very powerful way into the political atmosphere,

of the day and become the king that the Jews that the Jews at the time wanted him to become.

And he chose not to all the time.

All the way up until the point where he was finally arrested.

And one of the disciples physically attacked,

Peter physically attacked the high priest's servant, struck him with a sword, cut off his ear,

and Jesus rebuked him by saying, or no, I guess it was he rebuked the,

did he rebuke Peter by saying, what do you think, I'm not here to lead a revolt?

Or was it the actual Pharisees, or those who came to? I always thought he rebuked Peter.

I thought he healed the ear, and then he rebuked Peter. Peter, right, by saying, listen, I'm not.

My kingdom is not a- Yeah, I'm not here to create a, to start a revolt, right?

So he was saying like, hey, look, I know you maybe want me to,

You want me to do this?

But he just kind of refused. And like, as you're talking, I'm sitting, I'm thinking, I'm like,

well, yeah, Jesus left anytime he was in an area, anytime crowds started to get too big, or like,

he never stayed in any one place very long. He would always get like, everybody would be like,

whoa, and then like, as soon as everybody was really excited, he would leave. And,

part of me wonders, somebody smarter who's studied this would have to to maybe give me an answer on this,

but I wonder if part of the reason that he was consistently leaving

was to avoid the appearance of gathering a rebellion force,

or allowing anything to go too far.

I mean, I think Jesus knew well enough the political environment to know that the larger the crowd got,

the more of a danger he was gonna be into the Roman government.

Yeah. And he had more work to do, And so he continued to tell people,

my time has not yet come.

You know, don't tell anyone what's happening. My time has not yet come.

He actually said it to the crowd, at least in Matthew's gospel, Matthew 26, verse 55.

After he healed the ear and everything like that.

In that hour, Jesus said to the crowd, in my leading rebellion that you have come out

with swords and clubs to capture me, every day I sat at the temple courts teaching

and you did not arrest me, but this has all taken place

that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.

And then all the disciples deserted him and fled. So he, Jesus, had an opportunity to get

super, super political at many, many different turns and decided not to.

Decided not to. All right, so I guess my follow-up question to that is like,

My follow-up question to that is like does.

The example of Jesus apply to the hopeful example for us? Like are we to follow the example of Jesus in that way?

Or is there a different, are we called to do something different?

Are we called to do something different? Are we called to get very directly involved in politics?

Are we called to, well and I think maybe I should qualify that question even further because I think

that's an actual, that's a pretty, maybe it's not such an easy question, I don't know.

I was gonna say, yeah I don't think that there's really any question that there's an issue with

Christians getting involved in politics. No, I don't think so either.

But is there? One, and two is, okay, then to what level,

then and to what level of intensity are we to.

Platform for our political cause vis-a-vis our understanding of the kingdom that we belong to Mm-hmm.

Is not of this world, that we are not citizens of this world, we are citizens of heaven,

you know, by faith in Christ. And so...

Yeah. So let me, let me pause it. So let me answer your question by pausing it, by

sharing something I, I, this is out of some, like a book I read and some reading I did quite a while

ago, and I gave this general premise as a sermon. I got some flack for this sermon when I gave it,

and I even got some flack for it because it stayed up online when I was doing some job

hunting. So some people went back and saw this sermon, and they didn't particularly like it.

And I don't know. I'm not gonna defend it. I've never gone back to re-watch it,

and I'm not gonna say that this was my best sermon I've ever given or something like that.

I gave it somewhat, I was kind of stepping out into a place that I was a little bit unsure of.

So let me share the theological framework that I think is a fairly compelling argument,

and I'd be interested to hear what you think about it. Okay.

So the argument goes this way, is that in America, a lot of particularly evangelical

Protestant Christians have classically understood themselves through the framework in the political

sphere, in the world sphere, of understanding themselves as a new Israel. You can go back

and you can look at the Pilgrims Crossing Over and the Mayflower Compact, and there's a sermon

that was given on the Mayflower that was, I can't remember, Light on the Hill or something. It was

There's a very famous sermon, you can go read it online, the manuscripts are there.

And in that sermon.

The preacher is making this very clear, like, identification of themselves to the Israels

coming into the promised land. And so there is this idea of becoming like a, the church and

Christians are meant to be coming and kind of establishing a kingdom of God of sorts, like

trying to create a Christian nation and understanding themselves as kind of like.

Coming into a land and restoring it to like to be underneath God. So that's one way of understanding

kind of Protestantism in America and how Protestantism has conceived of itself as,

saying like, this is kind of the framework that we want to work under. Now, if we decide to grant

that that narrative's true. I think that the more biblical narrative that we see throughout the New

Testament, not just in Jesus, but in Paul's discussions in Romans when he talks about the

government, very particularly highlighted in 1 Peter, it's 1 or 2 Peter, where Peter goes through

the household, and he talks about that, and even in the book of Hebrews, like throughout

the New Testament is not the understanding of the Church as.

Israel coming into a promised land, establishing a new, better Christian kingdom under God.

It's the understanding of Daniel, the understanding of being exiles in a land who are called to be

holy, set apart, exist under the authoritative and ruling structures of the land, seek the good of

the city, right? That whole, like, if you do the research of, like, what is it, you know,

study of a city throughout the Bible, right? Seeking the good of a city. So, it's not that.

Christians are meant to be kind of these exiles and not involved in the political sphere at all,

but the framing is different. Am I here to establish and rule a new Christian kingdom,

that with Jesus as kind of my backing flag, or am I here to seek what would be the best for the

kingdom that I live in, and also advocate for some Christian values along with it. But coming from a

different place, or a different mindset of conceiving of ourselves as like exiles who live

a foreign land until Christ comes back. And that was kind of, that was a very, you know,

the truncated version of what I seem to think makes some sense to me. I'm curious, what do you,

think about that?

There's a lot there.

I would say first, to go back to your very first point, that the narrative or the presumption

and that the church is now the new Israel is not an idea that I support.

Or think is particularly,

well I guess I should say this, it depends upon the way that the person uses the term New Israel.

If they use the term New Israel to talk about the nation of Israel,

as in like the actual Jewish people.

Like Israel. Israel, the country as it exists now. or even the people of the covenant.

Then I would say, no, the church is not the new Israel because Israel is Israel.

The people of the covenant are the people of the covenant. And the way in which I understand Jesus teaching on it,

as well as the apostle Paul, is not that the church now,

supplants the people of the covenant or the nation of Israel,

but that we are, through faith in Jesus, we are grafted into, we are a branch

that's grafted into what God has already established.

So we don't become what they weren't.

Yeah, we join in who they are. Yeah, and,

So I.

Think that Maybe it's I I do think it's an important. I think it's an important distinction. Yeah,

I would I think I would would agree.

With what you had said about Christians living,

as strangers in exiles, that's first Peter. Strangers in exiles in a world that does not know it.

Being like, knowing that our inheritance is not of this world, that our inheritance

is of another kingdom and another world not the Holy Spirit, is the deposit

guaranteeing our inheritance.

And that working for the good of this, I think where I begin to have some questions is what...

What does working towards the good of the city look like? Yes, especially in terms of when it comes

into like a political discussion, because like, okay, if we were to say,

all right, just working towards the good of the city,

Does that necessarily mean that we advocate

for Christian value within the political realm?

Yeah, that's where I get, where it gets, it can get a little foggy.

We're defining where that line is, even for myself.

Right. It's like hard to find. Yeah, I think it is hard because it,

on the surface, I think it's reasonable to say, well, why wouldn't we advocate for Christian value

in the political realm?

And I get that.

On the other hand, you see this trajectory in Scripture of like the world will be ever and increasingly wicked,

ever and increasingly wicked,

debased, and running at breakneck speed away from God and the things of God.

That is the trajectory until Jesus returns, period. period, you know?

And that's like, that is as firmly established as a promise in scripture as you find things,

firmly established as a promise in scripture.

This is the way the world is going to go until Jesus returns.

And so, my question there is, is like, To what extent, to what extent then do we fight that?

Do I? Seriously even do I fight it?

But do I fight it to an unbelieving world?

Do I fight for Christian values, Christian moral, Christian ethic in the life of those

who express faith in Jesus Christ?

Absolutely. That's why we're pastors. That's why we're pastors, right?

But like Paul says in 1 Corinthians, the wisdom of God is foolishness to the world.

Like, why would we, why are we wasting our breath.

To a world that believes that the wisdom of the Lord is foolishness, right?

That the reason that we, the reason that we can work for the,

like that we can like try to press in Christian values into individuals' lives or into Christian community life

is because those people or those communities

have already established that we live under a different kingdom, that we have a different king,

that we have a different Lord.

We're not living according to the law of the world.

We're living according to the law of the Lord in our kingdom.

And so yes, like Christian values, yes, place them firmly in the lap of those who have expressed

faith in Jesus Christ.

But what does the person gain who has.

Who has no will to surrender themselves to Jesus.

But whom is being forced to abide by Christian morality,

simply because we think it's the best way to live. Is it? Yes.

But has their heart been changed and transformed and surrender to Jesus as their Lord?

No. So does it make a bit of difference if they go through the motions but they're not transformed?

Absolutely not. Yeah, I think like a perfect hypothetical example.

And maybe not hypothetical because I know people out there, like put prayer back in schools, right?

Okay, let's just like. It's all we need to do. It's all we need to do.

Just put prayer back in schools, like, and there's debate over how widely practiced,

like, morning prayer was at any given point

in public school in the last hundred years.

Like, I don't know. The history behind all of that is super foggy to me.

How much of that is just kind of like the good old days made into imaginary world is not clear to me.

But this idea of like, okay, well, everybody, like, okay, just like everybody gotta stand up

and say the Pledge of Allegiance and then pray, right? And someone praying over the intercom or whatever.

And if we were in a different country and there was a different kind of more,

a different popular religion that was bigger than Christianity,

say we were in the Middle East and Islam,

and morning prayer or actually like the daily prayers were mandated to all students.

Would we be okay with that? No. No, we wouldn't be okay with that.

But is it even Christian to go about and to mandate religious practice or religious observance

or respect of my religious observance on people,

like from legislative, systematic, systematic... No, because I don't want their practice. What I want is their heart to be

transformed by Christ.

So I don't care if they go through the motions, so I'm not gonna make a big deal about whether

they do or don't in the political realm.

So that seems to be like a, like, because when you say Christian values, well, prayer

is a Christian value, right?

But we can't go around and legislate prayer, like that would be violating the religious

freedom or like the freedom principle and freedom of speech and all that stuff that,

rely upon to practice our religion. To continue to pray in school. Yeah. Because you can. You can.

Like prayer has not been removed from school. Right. We're not like France. I don't know if

anybody's paying attention to what's going on in France right now. I think they just passed a...

France is a pretty, very, very strong interpretation of separation of church and state.

So much so that they've banned religious symbols from public buildings and particularly schools.

So whether you're, and they have a significant Muslim population. So like hijabs, head coverings

have been banned for quite a while. Crosses, if you were to wear a cross into school, that would

not be allowed. And I think they just like created or added an extra level of clarity, like the,

longer, I don't know the proper word, not intending to be offensive, but the longer

like shirt, skirt things that like Muslim men will sometimes wear. Those are no longer allowed.

That just got like passed like a couple of days ago, I think, in schools or public buildings

because it's interpreted as a sign of religious something. And if you are not just a leader,

anybody, like if you're just going to school or you're just not allowed to have that. And so,

You know, like, that's a very different world from the one that we inhabit here in the States.

And like, I don't think we want the other one.

Right. We were like where a non-religion or an opposing or different religion is imposed.

And so are we violating the golden rule by imposing Christian values on other people,

even though there we might believe, and we do believe that they are the right values.

Are we loving our neighbors? Well, if we're forcing them to do what we think they ought to do.

It's a modern day crusades.

You will all convert, or we will kill you. ALEXANDER Where do you… but where does that line… this is a heavy question,

but where does that line stop? So, let's like…

BARRY It's a good question.

ALEXANDER Right. So, we can very easily put it over there. Okay, we can't mandate religious

practice. Where does it stop? You might be getting close to the line when it comes to…

ACKERMAN I will say, for me, it stops when in advocating for the protection of the image of

God in others. So for me, it would be like the dignity and the sacredness of human life and the

image of God in others. So like, I mean, you don't, like I have, I have really, really,

really strong opinions on abortion, pro-choice, pro-life. And I think that it is, I think it is

not only, I think it is a, I will say somewhat of a duty of Christians to advocate for the life of.

The unborn. Because I believe that each of those children, even at the most simple stages of their

development hold the image of God. And so, I think that Christians should advocate for and,

work to protect and make sacred the image of God. Now, for posterity's sake, I have virtually the same opinion.

With the conversation of abortion as I do on capital punishment.

I have the same position. Like I don't, I am not a proponent of capital punishment.

Right, like the percentage of people that we believe are potentially wrongfully executed.

Right. Like are we okay with there being any percentage of error?

Even in that. Even outside of that, like that's a, not even the position you're holding,

talking about like it's just not okay to be killing the image of God.

Period. Period. End of sentence. Whether you are guilty or whether you might be guilty, DNA evidence,

exonerates you 30 years down the line. No, for me, it's like, okay, image of God should be

advocated for, protected. I think it's a justice issue. I think it's an issue of like,

is this just? Can a human being take another human being's life and have that be a just?

Have that be something that's completely and fully just. God is completely and fully just.

There is no injustice in anything that he does. And so some will say, well,

God ordered the full-scale genocide of whole people groups in scripture. God is fully just.

Right, you know, that wasn't, that wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't a matter of injustice. Like

God is the definition of what just is. You know, if Joshua was like, we're going to go kill all

those people because we want to, but God hadn't, but God hadn't been like this, this is what must

happen, right? Different story, right? So God is fully just. So yeah, I think that,

to go back to the original question, and I could go, we could go a lot further down that rabbit

trail for sure. Because it does break, I understand that my, it breaks down. Sure,

it breaks down. Like, people have asked me before, like, okay, so what you're telling me

is that if someone were to break in your house in the middle of the night,

threaten to take the life of your wife or your children.

That you wouldn't do anything and everything that you could,

including up to killing that person in order to protect your family.

And I'm here to say, don't break in my house. That's all I'll say.

Cameron means that people. Don't break in my house.

You will be a fatal error in the victim selection process.

Don't break in my house. However, you know, so I understand that it breaks down

quickly. But those are like, to just give you like...

That is comparing apples and oranges a little bit. It is like somebody who is very much detained.

Like and like if it is no is not a is is not presenting immediate threat in danger to other,

then like that those are two very different scenarios. Or who are who is completely innocent

in their mother's womb. So yeah, that would be my watermark is like, okay, when do we get involved?

When the things that are happening politically bring destruction to the image of God.

So these are even some political things around like the way that the poor are treated now.

Or like I've got some pretty strong feelings about the way in which municipalities deal with

and approach homelessness, addiction, mental health, things like that because I think that

we begin to play political games with people.

Like the dignity of people's life. And so, would be advocating,

I'd be advocating for that as well.

I think there's an interesting, I don't know, maybe we'd have to think about this,

but I think it's also interesting that Like, there is very clear joint agreement in, like, our political system and society

around the value of life from which you can begin to operate.

So like, generally, like, you'd say most laws are, you know, like, are there to preserve

and protect human dignity and people's rights, freedom, and life, right?

Liberty, and pursuit of happiness and all that. So, there's at least a, and society's debating

where that stops and starts and how that happens, but there's at least a starting place. There's a

starting point versus trying to advocate for prayer. There's no built-in value necessarily

around maybe some sort of universal understanding of prayer or something like that. So, maybe that's

a secondary criteria.

Yeah. And if you go back to the prayer example, you'd be like, okay, so now are we gonna mandate who they pray to?

Right. The theology of their prayer? Mm-hmm.

You know can they can they pray to the spaghetti monster in the sky as long as they're praying it's fine or.

Can they pray to say it's and that's what i'm not gonna let you go any farther than spaghetti.

What you don't say is just not that simple or you know so.

Tune in next week as we dive into Cameron's childhood nightmares.

I love the spaghetti monster in the sky. You never heard that phrase?

No. Oh, yeah. No. No. No.

I mean, what would you say, do you have a, like, OK, here is where Christians should get involved politically?

I mean, honestly, I want to just steal your answer, because it was really good.

I think, like, you put it really well.

I've always kind of had to kind of, I guess I've always never had a good operating singular

principle. It's been more of a case by case kind of thing of just like, that seems to go against a.

Universal moral code. That seems to go against something not that is, that we should uphold

outside of religious practice, right? And that caring for people's lives, for their existence,

would be one of those. Whereas like, I'm a little bit more, I think even before gay marriage was

widely legalized, I was very, I was kind of like, when that discussion was happening, I was just

just like, I don't know that we should be holding this back as like, like, that was kind of a question that was in my head at

the time when gay marriage was illegal. I was just like, I don't know that this is because we're trying to advocate a

Christian sexual ethic to people who are not Christian. And if

you are atheist, this does not make any sense. Like, what is why does this cause any significant harm or something like that?

But then if we're going to begin to talk about maybe.

Transgenderism and the effect that's having on children, that becomes a little bit more,

to me, I'm like, well, that's not adults making adult decisions. We're now, the way that our

society is moving, we're influencing children to make what I deem to be, again, something

that is marring the image of God, harmful to themselves long-term, very just detrimental

to mental health and all that stuff.

So that's how I've always kind of done it, is try to see like where is the universal

kind of morality line versus,

Religious practice versus protecting and safeguarding. That's how I've kind of always done it

Well, you're welcome to steal my answer for the future. I mean I might because I think it works.

So, yeah, that's Man, we just scratched the surface of it. Yeah, I think it's probably this is do a part two

Yeah, I'll wear the same shirt next week. Yeah me too the same shirt I mean, I always wear a dark shirt. Anyways, we can come back and talk about

about, it's funny, scrolling back down to the thumbnails

in the YouTube just to see like the title slide, it's like I wear like three shirts.

At least I have to use that weird quote. I got like three shirts that I wear.

I have more than three shirts.

But anyway, yeah, we'll come back to this conversation because there's I think several,

several trails that we can take.

We didn't even really get into what is considered, or what we would call at least Christian nationalism.

No, we touched on it. which is, I think, probably one of the most significant.

Ills facing the church. Well, and the place I initially thought we were,

I thought with this conversation was gonna go was like deconstruction and nationalism and politics

and how like politics, nationalism has played a significant role in people wanting to deconstruct

or initiating people's deconstruction, which like I think is a whole.

It's part of the conversation. Part of the conversation. But and even like, you know, that's kind of the,

you know, undercurrent of some of the stuff we talked about, you know. Maybe we'll show,

you remember that video of that preacher that gave that about the spy balloons?

No, for crying out loud. Maybe we'll pull that video out.

He was a person who thought that America was the new Israel, and he thought therefore God

had blessed our military and so we should just go and attack China. He gave a whole,

Not an intro to a sermon, not like a beginning remark, like a whole sermon.

On the Chinese spy balloon. Yeah. And justify calling it a sermon is probably not even fair.

No. Cause it had no scripture.

Like it's just a... Every day I ask Jesus to make me a man of peace, but I want to punch that guy.

He deserves it. He deserves it. All right. Well, thanks for listening. Thanks for joining us today.

Yep. If you have questions about politics and stuff like that, send us in those questions. Politics and the integration of Christian faith

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