What's the Deal with Christian Nationalism?

Music.

Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke. I'm Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut Podcast, where we have

uncut and honest conversations about faith, life, and ministry. This week, we are going.

To pick up, I guess, kind of where we left off. A little bit. Which it was last week,

if you tuned into last week's episode, was all about politics, kind of politics

politics broadly, and yeah, we just kind of think that there's a lot to talk about there,

because it seems like over the last, oh, I don't know, decade or more, or the last several

election cycles that religion, or particularly like conservative evangelicals, have continued

to play a significant political slash demographic role in politics.

And that's its own, considering evangelicals as a demographic rather than a theological

distinction is its own thing that is kind of complicated and

icky. It's kind of weird. I think that YouTube is nerfing our podcast on this episode. Yeah, I think so, too. I think

the algorithm is hiding it because it only has 29 views,

right, which is very low for us. Very low, right? Normally, especially with an episode that I think was full of a lot of

good content. Yes. Well, and it's also something that like a

A lot of people love to talk about.

Right. So.

Although our subscribers are up. Our subscribers are up. So.

We have 50 subscribers now. Wow, thank you very much everybody.

Thank you so much. Who is subscribing on YouTube. On YouTube, yeah. So.

Huge, but yeah, only 29 views.

For our last YouTube version. And like two or three of those are us, so.

Right. Just as a comparison, The one right before that was 156 views,

which is a little bit higher than normal.

Which was like a high standout for us. I think kind of average for us is somewhere in the 40s,

like the 30s to 40 range. Looks like a couple in the 90s and 70s and stuff like that.

But I'm guessing that we get more listens on like Apple and Spotify than we do on YouTube.

Yeah. Witch.

I, I kind of prefer, I prefer this do. Yeah. So like in the morning, if I'm running on the treadmill or something like that, I'll even stick a YouTube video up. And if they have a, if there's a YouTube version of the podcast and I'm listening to it, I'd rather watch slash listen than just listen.

I think I generally prefer to listen. Yeah, but that's also how I like to consume my podcasts like a.

Really chill evening for Luke like super super chill is like a podcast and like a video game that doesn't take any brainpower,

Like, you know like Mario or something something with no dialogue run from point A to point B

like jump on the mushroom and and just listen to...

And get big. Yeah, and get big. Some Alice in Wonderland stuff there.

And then listen to a podcast, you know.

Yeah. I got a text this morning from a friend who said that they listened to it yesterday and

loved it, thought it was a really good episode.

And of course we shared it all over our socials. But I don't know.

There's no rhyme or reason. No, there's, you know, everybody kind of bemoans the algorithm gods.

And it's because, you know, I think you said the other day, I don't think the algorithms

want to be understood. No.

So, they are a mystery. We just keep trying to do our best and put out good content and see where it goes.

Right.

As you're kind of reflecting on what we talked about last week, what, like, what do you feel

like is the natural next step of the conversation or maybe like anything that we need to circle back

to talk about more? I feel like maybe to me in my head, some of the like biggest topics that,

we didn't quite... like, we approached, but we didn't quite, like, address is the, like...

It's like, the current expression of Christian nationalism. And then, honestly,

like, I kind of want to talk about Christians' relationship with Trump. Like,

Like, we kind of kept it kind of vague last week.

I do have like some, I do want to say something specifically about people's relationship with

him in particular, because I think it highlights something.

So yeah, you know, those are kind of the, I guess that's kind of the vein I'm kind of

like, feeling was there was there anything that you felt like we needed to circle back to?

I don't know. I don't know that there's anything we need to circle back to per se.

I would say the general direction of Christian nationalism, at least in the, in the way that's being expressed now, I think that there may be a danger of misunderstanding. I won't speak for you, but sure, of misunderstanding.

The like the, what I think of our country.

When it comes to talking about politics or faith, really like, I think there is kind of a phenomena

kind of a phenomena where like, if you speak, I want to say negatively, but if you speak as a contrarian to a particular

well held position, your

you must be the complete polar opposite and against there's no Right. So if you hear us talking critically about the way in which a large, not the totality of,

of a large swath of those identifying as evangelical Christians have,

You know.

Aligned themselves with Trumpian politics If you don't align with that then you hate America,

You are an ultra liberal And And You Love Joe Biden,

You know, there's just no room, but I think probably in the political discourse,

one of the things that frustrates me the most is that there's just zero room for,

people leave zero room for gray or nuance anymore.

Well, everything's become either or, either you are for us or you are against us.

Either you support me 110% or you are 110% against me.

Yeah, and I think part of the point that I was trying to make last week,

was that I don't think Jesus is particularly interested.

In supporting any candidate or either candidate,

no matter who it is. That's the point I was trying to make, is that like, are there social issues

or even economic issues that Christians can vote intelligently and informed upon

that one candidate supports more than another?

Yeah, I think so.

But I think to make the blanket statement that if you're a Christian, you must vote for Trump.

If you're a Christian, you must vote for Joe Biden. If you're a Christian, you must vote for X

because that's what Christians do.

Or hold this political view. Right.

And although I do think that like the, although I do think that the particular strain

of Christian nationalism that we experience now

in those who are like really, really, really super supportive of former President Trump's candidacy,

and his presidency when he was the president, um...

I don't, like, I think I began to notice veins of that.

Even back into George W. You know, like he was the Christian candidate on the ballot.

Yeah, yep, which in his theology, and it's arguably its impact on his policy decisions,

were and still are very, very controversial.

Sure. And so I remember some of it then.

Then I also remember some of it with President Obama. Yes, particularly early on in his first presidency.

Right, and around the issues of healthcare.

Like healthcare is a basic human right.

Christians should be advocating for healthcare for everyone and dot, dot, dot, dot, you know?

And so it became like a, you must vote in this particular way,

or with this particular candidate in order to be considered Christian.

So I don't, although I think it's kind of found its apex in President Trump, former President Trump,

Trump, I don't think that it's the first time that we've seen it.

Right. No, it's not. It's maybe it's... and maybe it's just the certain confluence that is bringing out the

particular problems, as it kind of were.

I guess it's hard to kind of say, because our theology ought to inform our politics,

But our theology is not our politics.

Or some version of that line, because it... Like, I was thinking about this earlier, like,

there has to be room in your theology and your worldview for there to be Christians

of other nationalities. And, and for like, America to not necessarily be like, I am not of the persuasion that America is,

necessarily it might be, I don't know, like all that, like speculation about like, America being one of the important

nations in the end of the world, the revelation, all that stuff kind of talked about a couple weeks ago. I'm like, I don't know. Don't know when the hour is coming.

Don't know that the United States will be here forever. I like the United States, would love it

to continue to stick around. But I guess I just... If you zoom out your perspective to a more global.

Perspective of believers everywhere, and you let go of the assumption that America is God's

favorite country, and that God's American, Jesus is American, right? He roots for my

hometown football team. If we kind of let go of some of that assumptions that we like

to tick? How does that impact the way that we view our theological integration into politics?

Yeah, I, you know, there's lots of different directions that we could go.

I think that one of the things that I have recognized over the last few years, especially, is a confusion on how a Christian, how a person primarily identifies themself.

Or maybe better said, like where,

what is the central feature of their identity?

Yeah.

And there is a lot of, there's a lot of belief around the idea

that I am an American, and I am a Republican.

I am a Democrat, I am a Libertarian, I am a X, Y, or Z, whatever party I affiliate with.

I am an American, I am this party.

I am conservative in my social policies, and I am a Christian. And the, the,

way in which we approach the world and the way in which we approach issues then is defined by,

which one of those identities is primary. And for many I think that the primary identity

of those professing faith in Jesus Christ

has not always been as a daughter or son of God.

As a citizen of a different kingdom, a kingdom that Jesus says is not of this world.

We are not primarily Americans.

We are primarily citizens of heaven and children of God. And so if that is our primary identity,

how does that change the way that we interact with or that we think through our relationship

with any political candidate or any political system,

or any political belief or position, you know?

Because we're not, we don't take any of it as just hook, line, and sinker.

Because that's not who we are.

We are not, I am not primarily an American. You know, similar to the way,

maybe this is a poor analogy, I don't know. We'll see, we'll see if it works.

Similar to the way that like after, I mean you got married almost a year ago now.

I got married almost 20 years ago now, and,

19 and a half years ago,

Sherry's identity is no longer like as one of her family of origin, her maiden name.

And we make that distinction in our wedding vows, right?

A wife will leave their family and become united to her husband.

A husband will leave his family and become united to his wife, right?

Like your parents didn't gain a daughter, and Aksana's parents didn't gain a son.

They both lost a daughter and lost a son. You created your own family, right?

And it's the same, I think, with.

I think it's the same with our faith in Jesus, is that, like I am, via my faith in Jesus,

I am no longer identified by the marks of the old world that I was a part of, or the old kingdom that I served.

I no longer am a slave to that kingdom. I am now a slave to righteousness, as Paul says in Romans 6 and 8.

And I am a citizen of heaven.

I'm no longer a citizen of this world. But.

We don't think like that. Our relationship with Jesus is something that informs.

Our other identities. It is the seasoning that we sprinkle upon the other more real.

Important things rather than being the basis through which and by which we make every other,

decision in our life.

Yeah. I like to put like a practical example on this, like when I think about this, I think

of there's some signs that I've seen, but I think of one in particular, it was a big,

big barn side of the barn was painted with the American flag.

And on it on top of that flag, it was written, it says, America needs Trump and Jesus.

And you know, I don't know the intention or like, you know, what that person's, you know,

internal philosophy or theology or even their intention behind that.

But when I saw that, I was just like, I don't think they're not the same person.

No. I'd like, they're, they're like, I don't, I, I feel very, or like another version of

that sign that I've seen is like signs that say, like, you know, God, guns, and Trump

or something like that.

And I was like, I don't feel comfortable having that be some...

I feel like it is not okay for Jesus or God to be sharing the platform with a political candidate.

I, it bugs me. And, you know, maybe, you know, that's not what's being intended to be communicated,

but like when they're communicated side by side like that, where we're synonymizing, like a

political candidate or a political agenda with God or with Jesus, I think we're doing something very

dangerous in my opinion,

What do you think it is?

About And I really don't Intend to make this all about Trump because I think the issue is not the issue is not actually Donald Trump. No.

Yeah, well before we go any further like I'm not saying you can't like Donald Trump, right? I'm not saying that

No, I'm like if like I'm just like I'm just,

I'm just saying that like, I, and I think maybe the narrative has shifted since the longer he's been in the limelight, but I remember very early on in his election, very in his, in the first election, um, the amount of evangelical pastors who just swarmed to that campaign and to him as a candidate and were publicly endorsing him in every single platform that they could.

Um, I think that has lessened it.

I don't think it's disappeared, but it has lessened the longer he's stayed in the limelight.

Cause I think, I think some of his character flaws have become more and more harder to defend.

Um, if you think he's like the best candidate, if you really agree and like his policies, like, or you just think he's, you know, the

best candidate out of bad choices, like, whatever, if you like him, that's fine.

I'm simply just saying, I think I'm trying to kind of be a corrective to the place where.

Trump is kind of sitting, he's sharing the stage with Jesus a little bit, or it's becoming,

well, if you follow Jesus, then the only de facto conclusion is that Trump

or conservative, or however you wanna frame it.

What do you think it is about, I wanted to ask the question,

but I wanted to qualify it with, it's not even really about Trump, at least it's not for me.

I think it's about the way in which Christians Process their identity in a political world. Yes,

But What is it that you think about? Can't a candidate like Trump that was so magnetic for the Christian population.

Man I think I Think we want like I think we want heaven on earth on our terms

Like, I, like we, I think we've begun to confuse, like, you know, I don't know, I guess like part of me thinks that we've begun to confuse political activism, or like, I think the line between religion and politics has become so blurry, or the concept of, you know, God's kingdom not

kingdom, not necessarily meaning America has become so blurry that we think like.

The end is coming. Like when, cause I don't remember when this happened,

but there was at some point where like,

maybe it was when Trump won the reelection race and the amount of people who

were like, like they were catastrophizing it.

It was like, this is the worst possible thing to have ever happened.

It's the end of all things. It's like, awful, right?

And I'm just like, is it?

Like, is this the worst thing that could potentially happen?

Isn't God still in control at the end of the day?

Doesn't God still, like the Bible says over and over that God plays a hand in the rising and falling

of kings and kingdoms. Like, at the end of the day, can't I go home and rest that God's got it?

And that my, or that like, you know, whether things are going the way I think they should or not,

like, aren't we gonna be okay?

I don't know if that really answers the question because I don't really know exactly.

Maybe I don't have a big enough perspective to see what has happened in the hearts and minds

that we've so quickly gotten kind of...

Sidetracked by politics. Yeah.

Yeah, I guess my question was really more about, like, what exactly was it about his

messaging, about his policies, about his, like, that he quickly became the only viable

candidate for Christians to vote for?

I think it was like, he, he, Trump didn't try, like, a lot of politicians will try and.

Kind of be friendly enough that the, like, less hardcore conservatives could say,

oh, well, I kind of like the people who are kind of independent, right, the people,

who kind of swing, right, and then you try and be kind of moderate. And by being

that you hopefully kind of capture enough people from both sides, even maybe pull

a couple Republicans who are maybe not happy with any of their candidates or

Candidates or something like that, but Trump just went straight,

Towards being like very clearly decide divisive or,

Very partisan I should say like isn't not a guy who's,

Reaching across the aisle necessarily. Yeah. No, I think maybe in to say another way. He was very clear about what he believed

Mm-hmm. And what he thought yes, he was not he did not give the political

political pat answer that tried to pander to segments of both sides.

Yes. was.

Like in a lot of cases harshly Saying what he thought what he felt whatever came to his mind came out of his mouth. Yeah,

there's and I think and I think some of the,

Kind of the rawness of his energy and like the uncut kind of like he just says what he thinks,

kind of Sentality and some of that what he's saying being somewhat angry and being,

insensitive and politically incorrect really spoke to

A large segment of America that I think feels like their voice isn't heard. Yep. I don't know if you've been paying attention

it's not like I listen to a ton of country music, but.

If you in the last month or so, there's been a lot of of country songs hitting the top of the charts and staying there, and they are particularly angry.

And they have a lot of like... There was an internet YouTube viral one that went up,

I think it was called...

Richmond, North of Richmond. Richmond, North of Richmond. There was another one that I don't remember,

because I'm not... I don't listen to country music. There was another one that

I listen to the lyrics and watch the music video and it's very violent

and barely, it's a very threatening and angry song at the end of the day and

I'm like that is the demographic of America that is angry. That feels like because of urbanization more population lives in the largest cities of America

than live in the country, but there's more like that disparaging meant of like there's people out

in the country and then there's people in the city. The city tends to be liberal, country tends to be

conservative, like excellent example is our state, New York.

New York liberal Right. No, I mean new york city. I should say new york city liberal,

And well, and then you look at the rest of new york, which is a massive state by the way,

It's almost entirely conservative very much. So.

And then but then where does our state legislature and our voting go during election season

All goes liberal, but you have this massive swath of people who like we're like we live in this state

we feel like we may take up this massive land portion and,

because there is a city like if that if New York City was not in our state our,

Politics our policies the way things like the amount of red tape,

Infrastructure and the way the government's run in the state will look very different if you just annexed to New York City out of our state

And let the rest of New York state do what it wants to do and let New York city do what it wants to do

That city is kind of like driving and that's a really disempowering and frustrating experience for everybody in the rest of the state

Who doesn't agree with the way that city's?

Pushing and pulling things and that's the way the rest of the country feels to like this,

Frustration and so and and then also there is just that,

like just that, like, you know, you go rural and you're gonna encounter people who are

more culturally Christian.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I think that there's a lot of truth to that. I think the I think that there is a,

fairly silent but growingly verbose majority of people who feel forgotten and unrepresented.

Feel like they have no voice and feel like some in some ways that Trump is the

the anti-establishment type of candidate,

and that he represents kind of like the anti-Washington.

Drain the swamp. Yeah, type of mentality. Yeah, like America's not great anymore.

It's because of politicians.

Mm-hmm. Let's drain the swamp and make America great again. Yeah,

And so there's been this growing sense of like,

Disfavor and disgruntledness in in that demographic and I think,

what they What the what those who really support Trump?

Express is that this is a candidate that sticks up for real Americans, you know.

And I, you know, like taking all of that at a very surface level, I would really,

personally probably agree, you know, that like, there, all of those things are probably pretty

true. The question then for me comes back to a little bit of what we talked about last week is,

all right is is or should be.

The primary voice, motivation, speech of Christians, is that where we should be expending

our energy? Like, is our energy best spent in joining a chorus of disgruntled people

people to call for the heads of those who have subjected the country and align ourselves

with a candidate that just shares that common, that common like voice or theme, thread or

perspective.

Yeah. Um, I think in some ways we, um, unwittingly put ourself in a enslaved position to a system of the world that we're not really

meant to, um, engage in that way.

Right, you know like whoa. Well Trump stands up for religious freedom.

Okay, do I appreciate religious freedom, of course, I appreciate religious freedom, you know,

Do I believe that it is the Government that allows me to worship God,

God. No. Right. Right. No. And so do I need a political candidate to protect my religious

freedom so that I can continue to be a Christian? No. Not at all. You know, I will be a Christian

because a Christian is just not something that I do because I'm American. Right. And

because I can, you know?

So I feel like it.

For me, it's a little bit like, okay, yeah, we Christians, we love Trump because he tells it how it is like, is that a Christian value?

Is that a biblical, like, Christ centered value that we want to that that's, that's our reason.

That's the reason is that, you know, like we're going to follow Trump because,

America was founded on God.

I don't know how many times you hear people say that. America was founded on God and and Trump tells it how it is and he's getting

trying to get us back to God and I'm just like, no, you need the Holy Spirit

to get you back to God.

Like you, right?

If you're waiting for someone else, Trump, Obama, George Bush, Joe Biden, whomever, right?

If you're waiting for someone else to enact the correct policies that you think will make

this a more God blessed, honored nation, right?

You are.

Avoiding the work of personal holiness you're avoiding the work of personal holiness.

Hoping that once your candidate is in office Everything will be right again in the world or the nation, right?

And so because we think that then it's like a we must do everything that we can to,

keep and and get our candidate back in office.

We will cut off the ear of the high priest servant if that's what it takes.

And Jesus the whole time would be like, what is you doing, bro?

What kingdom are you fighting for? I love America. I love where I live.

I have no desire to live in any other country, but I am not fighting for this.

I'm not fighting for this country like you, like because I believe that in it is the hope of the world.

Right. Right.

I'm fighting for the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God, like Paul says, is eternal.

The kingdom of God is the kingdom to which I belong.

The kingdom of God encapsulates all those who believe by faith in Jesus Christ,

both before me and present and coming.

Yeah.

And I think that the Christian's responsibility is to ensure that we're fighting for the right kingdom.

I think, like, again, we're not saying you have to be apolitical. No.

Right? If you feel really called to be invested and involved and active in politics, go do it,

please. Please be a spirit-filled godly Christian who goes and works in politics,

politics, advocates, does all of the things, but understand that there is a kingdom that

is beyond this kingdom, right?

And I think there is a question of idolatry, in my mind.

For sure. When... And this has to come down to people's personal discernment and conviction of the Holy Spirit,

But like, if your politics, if politics don't go the way you want them to, or if they do,

if you're like, you know, if only, like, because I'm trying to think like, what are the idols behind politics?

Well, I think sometimes for people, it's money, because they want economic politics to go

the way they want them to, because that'll provide maybe the economic benefits they want,

or at least the things they think will like.

Provide that greater sense of security through economic stability.

I think sometimes it's a sense of control. It's power. It's power, power and control. It's power.

Which the flip side behind the idol of power and control is that you are ultimately controlled by fear.

People who really, really want control of things, or want power, are often some of the most afraid people.

And this is not everybody, but there are, there's a subsection of people who are conservative,

I think, who are very much, who very much live in fear.

Of what is coming to get you, whether that is a political party or it's a company or

it's the world or it's, you name it, like whatever, you know, thing you is that you

feel like is threatening you and your family, like, I think you need to ask yourself seriously

if you're living in a state of fear that is in contradiction to trusting God and living in Him.

Do you see that? Do you, like… Like, yeah, I think you're...

I think you're maybe taking a little bit more understanding approach that I would take to it.

I'm being nicer? Well, I think like you're trying to see what is the underlying reason that I tend to be a little

bit, I don't know, I tend to see it in a little bit more is that like human beings love to have

the power. Yeah. We love to be in control. And even if it's just as relatively benign as my candidate one.

My party is in the White House. Right. Or has the Senate or has the, you know, whatever.

I mean, listen, let's be real, real honest about the, like, what kind of significant

changes actually trickle down from the halls of Congress and the rooms of the White House

to me in a four year span.

Very few. Very few.

I'm not going to say there's a zero because there are economic policies, there are things

like that that do trickle down.

But so when we celebrate the winning of our guy, we're not, very few of us are celebrating

the winning of the policy that's going to be better for everyone.

The winning of the direction for the country that's gonna be better for everyone.

We're celebrating that we won, and someone else lost, and screw everyone else.

And that's kind of the heart that I feel and see behind the obsession with.

Christians aligning themselves with a system that seeks to gain control and power.

Rather than live subversively in the world that we have as to like,

defeat the kingdom of darkness and usher in the kingdom of light.

Right?

Yeah. Right.

And it's not, okay, hear me when I say, I don't wish for persecution.

I don't wish for removal of Christian freedom or religious freedom at all.

Yeah. Highly, highly blessed.

I don't wish for any of that.

But let's not pretend that we're, that like it is a just a flat out fact that there is,

we see a revival, we see a revival of Christian faith in nations where political persecution

for the Christian faith is the strongest and highest.

Class.

Yep, the largest churches in the world Christian churches in the world are not in America, right? They're in places like,

China Where the government is.

I mean like they present a religious freedom Well, yeah, as long as your church is underneath government authority,

Then you can meet but if you like the Christians did in Rome, the early church,

when they were like, no, like we have another Lord that is not Caesar, right?

If you're going to stand that ground, you end up in the underground church in China,

which China does not treat very nicely. No.

So yeah, the places in the world where Christianity is governmentally opposed the most

has the most vibrant Christian community.

That community is largely underground, but we see an extraordinarily explosion

of personal revival and personal transformation

and personal salvation that comes to places like that.

Why is that?

I wonder, maybe because the Christians in those places are not concerned at all about playing a game,

where they leverage their governmental political candidate,

for their own spiritual, personal reasons, and they are solely focused on the building of the kingdom,

that moth and rust will not destroy and that thieves will not break in and steal.

And what do you know when the church organizes itself around that kingdom, it grows with extraordinary measure.

Um, well, I, I think it's really interesting because like, I'm going to take a little bit of liberty here.

Um, but in some sense, like churches, like in China, where it's not, you know,

the underground church is fighting for the freedom to not have to put that nation's flag on the stage.

Whereas like then here, what is often happening is when, where we do have the

freedom to not have to fly a nation's flag, we, for some

reason, then choose to put that flag on our stage in some places. Or there was a church I attended a church once and never

really had been there before, came in, it was Memorial Day.

And there was up front, what many, many churches have is like the table for communion.

Don't say it, please don't say it.

Says, do this in remembrance of me on the front.

And they had every single military seal, and flag, and thing displayed on that table.

And then the worship leader got up there and said something about something

equating Christ's sacrifice to military sacrifice.

Like making that kind of analysis.

And I was like, this- Forgive us, Lord. Yeah.

Like- Forgive us, Lord. And I don't say that, again, like I'm not saying that to kind of lessen

the service of veterans or the importance of that, But like.

None of them are Jesus. That table and what's supposed to go on there, what we're supposed

to be doing in remembrance is written remembrance of one death. And that, I was just like, uh-uh.

And I'm sure that they maybe weren't thinking in the terms. I don't think the intentionality was there.

They probably weren't thinking theologically. They're probably just trying to honor those

who had given themselves in service of their country. And they were just like, oh, the table's up there.

We'll just use the table. Extraordinarily admirable. Right.

And honoring, I want to honor those things as well. But like, Jesus would have flipped that table over.

Yeah.

Or I say he would have flipped the table over.

But I think you would have. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Cameron would have.

I thought you were going to say that you walked in and then like over the like communion elements they had the American flag or like over the altar it was the

American flag. No. No, but I feel like that is still like... It's in the same vein.

It is in the same vein, and it is like, and I do feel like that, to me, that's how it feels

when you have an American flag up on the corner of your stage. Like there's one kingdom,

And it's invisible, so don't even get me started on the Christian flag, because it's invisible, so.

Right, yeah, Christian flags, right.

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know I.

It can be frustrating it can I you know, and it's a.

You know it and it's really interesting I feel like Trump's first election,

2016 is At least the beginning point for a lot of people who are around my age

age or a little bit younger of when they started to kind of deconstruct Christianity.

Yep.

It was a bit of a watershed point for people. And it was even for me because I was very confused

because I saw a lot of people, some religious leaders who I knew personally, who had an impact

on my early faith development were hitching themselves so strongly to a political candidate,

to political ideals and rhetoric, and I was very confused, because some of the things I

was seeing were not demonstrating, like, the fruits of the Spirit, were just, like,

like, being kind of profane, or being, you know, and at least from my vantage point,

like, you could disagree with me, and like, maybe we could have a conversation about it,

But my uncut honest opinion is that Trump was mostly pandering towards Christians.

Don't think like again, like I don't know is Trump Christian not really my decision to decide

But like if you were to ask me, I don't it's hard to examine fruit from 50,000 feet away, right?

But from my vantage point it very much looked like it was like he is a plot. He is,

pandering towards the demographic that is going to get him elected which are,

like very conservative and religious individuals and And it felt very much like just a constant facade.

And so from my vantage point, I was seeing all these religious leaders

who I looked up to following someone

that seemed to me not to be the most genuine or even to have like the best,

the character qualifications I felt had been held up to me my entire life and childhood

saying, a Christian leader looks like this. And when I looked at him, I said, I see some

significant gaps here. And now I'm left here wondering, well, what does that mean about my

faith if some of the religious leaders and faith leaders I looked to are now hitching themselves

so strongly in this direction? What does that say about the foundation of my faith and the decisions?

And that was the same thing I think a lot of people experienced.

And a lot of people deconstructed to either a degree or entirely their faith.

And some of the watershed of that was some of what was happening in and around there.

Mm-hmm.

Well. you

I would agree, yeah. Well, I don't know that I have much else to say on the matter at this point.

I think most of what I said last week encapsulated my general thoughts and feelings

and this was kind of like just an extended commentary on this particular branch of like Christian practice,

which just assumes that, you know, that our citizenship in America.

Is primary to our citizenship in heaven, but it still informs it,

so we should pick the candidate that we feel most accurately understands us.

But if the message is an anti-establishment, we're angry, let's all be angry together,

and just say what we feel all the time

without even really thinking about the consequences of how it represents the name and character of Christ,

then I think we have a lot of examination to do about our relationship with Jesus.

Yeah. I think, like, to summarize my point, because maybe I made a bunch of people mad who've listened,

and maybe they've stopped listening, but like it just, I don't think we get to be the deciders

we get to be the deciders of who has God's endorsement.

If you like, like I said, you should vote your conscience, you should vote who you think

is going to be the best candidate. Like you should do all of those things and you should do so well.

But I just, I'm so, so hesitant to turn to anybody.

Even if like my ideal candidate, like the candidate who like,

I think would be the best candidate in the entire world.

They've like, like they were a pastor before they went into politics.

And they have daily devos, and all that. They're just the absolute person, perfect person, I think.

Right? I still don't... I would not put my stamp and say, this is God's candidate.

Right. Because I don't think I have the authority to do that. And so when I'm... All the things I've been

saying, I think, on this episode has been trying to say that. Like, can we stop tying Christ?

Can we stop trying to tie Christ to people that are not him and assume that we know God's will?

Pete Slauson Right, agreed. Thanks for listening to part two.

Feel free to send in questions, comments to our text line, 716-201-0507, and we'd love

If you would like and subscribe, share it, comment on it,

wherever you listen, and we will catch you on the next episode.

Yep, we'll see y'all then.

Music.