Gluttony, The Body, and Sin

Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke.

And I'm Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut Podcast, where we have uncut,

honest conversations about faith, life, and ministry.

Today, we're sitting down to talk and record the episode a little bit earlier than we normally do.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. Hope you had a great holiday. Yeah So we're all

bright-eyed and bushy-tailed here.

We are And we're getting ready to dive into it. So Cameron, why don't you kick us off?

Well, you had sent me a real I did I send you a lot of reels.

We send each other a lot of reels And you know what?

Like before we get into what we're actually gonna talk about.

I I love the type of friendships where there's no pressure to respond to the

reels that we send each other. Just communicate via reels.

Just send them via, because I have like three friends.

You're one of three friends that

I communicate with on Instagram primarily through just sending reels to.

And there's no pressure. And I really like that.

So you sent me a reel. I sent you a real and you actually like commented on

it when you sent it and then I commented back which is rare. Yes.

And this was a real by I think it was the charismatic Calvinist.

Maybe I didn't even pay that much attention. I just saw it and I was like we

got to talk about Yeah, it's a Instagram handle,

you know, talking head type of guy and his main thesis behind or the main point

that he was going to make is that.

Gluttony and obesity is the biggest sin that Christians don't talk about.

And one of the most empirically identifiable sins that a person can struggle

with but that you don't talk about.

So, and then he makes some assertions about, He brings in like the parable of

the talents being an issue.

We'll link the reel in the show notes here. But how about how the parable that

Jesus taught, the parable of the talents, about what you have,

like what's Jesus gonna say about the things that he's entrusted you to and how you treat them?

Okay, well there's some context issues there.

And then he says something akin to you know, outside of your salvation,

your physical body is the greatest gift that God has given to you, which is interesting.

I have some thoughts to say about that as well.

But I think, despite the things that he actually says is the idea,

the general ideas around it.

Some questions that I would want to talk about is, one, is obesity?

A sin? Okay. Is obesity a sin?

Yeah. Two.

Maybe some talk around the theology of the body.

And three, what do we do with conversations like this where like portions of

it I'm like, yeah, okay, I think I agree with that, But then like,

conclusions that are made off of false premises, are they false conclusions?

So if the argument, if he uses arguments that are out of context to get to a

conclusion, does the conclusion remain the same? Yes, yeah, right.

Okay, so yeah, let's tackle it in that order then.

Let's tackle the big question, sin, is obesity a sin, what was the second part

of the theology of the body?

Yeah, just talking about the theology of the body, because when he said,

you know, your body is the greatest thing outside your salvation that the Lord has given to you.

I have some thoughts on that. And then, like...

Can you make a true... Is the conclusion true if the premises upon which you

make the conclusion are out of context or false?

Right, yeah, and kind of, and I would addend to that maybe a little bit of medium

is the message and the tone in which that is.

Right. That is not how I would talk to somebody. Right. But anyways,

so yeah, is obesity a sin?

I actually, I don't, I think gluttony is a sin.

I don't know that obesity is a sin.

And I think the, one of the issues that I think perhaps in particularly in his

application is that he's not making a distinction between the two.

Right. Yeah, I'd agree. And I guess, and if that's not immediately obvious to

like, like why I'm saying that, Cameron, why do you agree with that statement?

What's, what clarity is that bringing? Why, how is gluttony different than obesity?

Well, obesity, at least in modern day terms, is specific to a person's body, their physical body.

And there can be many reasons why a person is physically obese.

And not all of them are because they live a gluttonous lifestyle.

Gluttony in a more general term is, I guess I don't really, I'm not really sure

how many people would describe it or even, I don't know that I've ever really

theologically studied gluttony.

Very little. It's a really interesting topic, but I didn't get to do a big enough

deep dive to be an expert on it.

Right. And so it would be for me, like, I would try to describe gluttony as the sin of excess. Yeah.

Intentional excess, right?

So, like, we can experience gluttony as a almost as a form of greed.

So gluttony financially. Yep.

Or materially, maybe I should say not financially, but material gluttonous in a material sense.

But living a life of ungenerous excess.

Well, like one of the, I think the most visceral examples to talk about gluttony

and one of the, And it's often talked about with food.

This is absolutely fascinating. This is going to be our Thanksgiving episode, Cameron.

Oh, my God, I didn't even think about that. I did not think about it at all.

But the biblical context, at least the historical biblical context that I learned

about gluttony was the...

Kind of the feasts that would happen in the ancient time during the New Testament,

where people would gather around for these really extravagant banquets,

and when they would sit down and what they would do is they would eat until they're full,

they would then go and purge, they'd go vomit up what they've eaten,

and then they would come back to the table so that they could eat more.

And so that's at least some of the background of some of the passages,

particularly where Paul talks about gluttony in the New Testament.

And that's a pretty...

That's a pretty good picture of what gluttony is.

Even though it's applied specifically to food, we can apply it elsewhere.

It's this... Because there's this almost... You're no longer trying to satisfy

physical hunger, you're trying to satisfy something deeper with something that

will never be satisfied.

And it's that ongoing excess that really, I think, pushes something into gluttony.

Yeah, I've seen some people describe it as one of the lusts of the flesh,

and I was doing just a quick... I wanted to try and find a reference.

I don't have my actual Bible down here, so it was difficult for me,

but in Proverbs... That's not it.

Um...

Man, not having your actual Bible is, like, really throwing you off.

It makes a difference for me, because I know where everything is in my actual Bible.

But regardless, you know, I've heard the same types of explanations.

I've heard the same examples of living in excess and living in a pattern or a state or a spirit of.

Almost wastefulness.

And maybe that is, maybe that there's some of that in there too,

like, because if you use the example that you eating, like someone that will

binge themselves on food and then purge and then go back and so they can go back and eat more.

There is a wastefulness there. Yeah, as well.

There's like, you know, a lot of really rich and famous people.

There's like even a brand of like YouTube videos where the whole premise of

the video and the reason why you would click on to watch the video is because

you have to watch this YouTuber who's making way too much money for doing way too stupid stuff.

And they're just being wasteful. Like he's like, Oh, I've got this like, um, Ferrari.

And I think I saw this video of this guy who was driving a Ferrari through a

cornfield and all the corn, like little remnants of the stocks and everything,

or being kicked up into the wheel.

And it gets stuck up in wheel hub and he lights this like Ferrari on fire because

he was driving it through a

cornfield and it just goes up in flames and that's the whole stupid video.

Mr. Beast? I don't think it was Mr. Beast, I think it was somebody else.

Mr. Beast isn't usually that wasteful, I don't know, I don't, I'm not an expert on Mr.

Beast, but like it, but it's that type of YouTuber, it's like watch for the spectacle.

And, you know, and you hear of like other people who are just like,

you know, ridiculously rich and wasteful, like the whole, oh,

the whole food trend of gold flaked food. You seen that?

From everything I understand, it adds almost no taste value.

No, I mean, yeah, my wife has made a cake for someone with Cold Flake on it, and so I know.

It is for its extravagance. Yeah. And like- You eat with your eyes first.

Sure, you do, but- But therein lies, I think for me, part of the,

like maybe we're getting to something here.

What the, like, because I would wanna, like I'm thinking about,

okay, well, how do we actually like get somewhere with this conversation?

I'm like, okay, if someone were to come to me and they were like,

how do I know if I'm obese and not sinful or if I'm a glutton and am sinful?

What would be the, where, what are some questions that I could ask myself?

Where like the delineating lines, and understand like it's probably not that

even that black and white.

But, you know, if we think of, if we're using eating or food or the physical

body as the kind of case study to talk about gluttony,

then I think the way in which we even talk about, think about use food is can be indicative,

of whether or not our practices around food or our eating of food is,

is leading us into sinful lifestyle or sinful habits or not.

I've heard people say, I've told my story a lot of times,

that I was addicted to alcohol,

and by God's grace, it never escalated to the point of destroying my life or

my public reputation or my,

My family or my marriage or anything like that but it was I was like I Was I was on that path?

I could see it could see it coming down the line and.

You know that the question was like well, why don't you just stop going to the bars?

Like well, the answer is I don't go to bars even when I do drink, right?

It's not like Well, I mean drunks do go to bars, but not all drunks go to bars

and a lot of drunks actually don't right Yeah, I don't go to the problem.

They drink by themselves.

Yeah, I was like, well, yeah just staying out of bars It's not my issue because I never drink in bars.

And so It became it was a more of a private thing for me and I'm like,

okay well, that's a different story altogether like the thing that you and and in To take it further.

I don't need alcohol to live So if you take someone and say, well,

someone who says, I'm obese and I'm addicted to food,

it is what I use as a coping mechanism to get through life, is the thing that

I lean on, is the thing that makes me feel better when I'm sad or depressed

or anxious or lonely or whatever.

And you can't just say to them, well, just stop eating.

Just don't go to the grocery store anymore. Right, right.

We're you know, like there's a there's a difference over here where alcohol

I don't need alcohol to survive, right? You you actually get hydrated better

if you don't drink it exactly like your health significantly improves without it, right?

So if you like say you have someone that struggles with obesity and maybe they're

wondering if it's gluttony or not like and they're saying well,

I Don't Want to be this way.

But I don't know how to not be this way right because I can't stop eating Yeah,

I have to I have to keep eating.

I have to go grocery shopping. I have to do right, you know I can't just stop

going to the bars type of thing well and then there's also like there's something

unique about again the distinction between gluttony and obesity is that,

It is possible that seasons of gluttony have gotten you to a place where you're

experiencing some level of obesity.

But you're not gluttonous. But you're not gluttonous anymore. Right.

So again, using the... again, like to critique the video a little bit,

is there's that very specific, like... because he says, he's like,

it's the most visible sin ever, you know, all you gotta do is look at somebody's body.

And I'm like, well that's not true, you know? Yeah.

But to even get to... I don't know if this the passage you were looking for, but this is Proverbs 23.

Verse 19 says this, "'Hear, my son, and be wise, and direct your heart in the way.

Do not be among the drunkards, or among the gluttonous eaters of meat.

For the drunkards and the glutton will come to poverty, and slumber will clothe

them in rags.'" And so this passage, you know, it's wisdom literature,

it draws the same parallel that you're drawing.

There is some similarity to the way drunkenness and gluttony function.

Excess. Excess, so. Yes, excess.

Okay, so how would we talk about this pastorally with someone?

How would you talk about this pastorally?

Well, I would, you know, I'd want to, I'd want to understand their story first, like,

like let's just like, just tell me what's going on, you know,

like what's your relationship with food like, like, um, is it,

you know, or what's your relationship with your body, right?

Like, I want to understand the story of like, of kind of like their history

of it, where they're at, like what's going on, what they're telling themselves currently,

and kind of, you know, deal with a little bit of the place in which they find themselves.

Because it's a really contextual...

You know, individual type of thing, right? And someone like,

let, let's just let's, let's assume I'm not talking to somebody who is like,

you know, I think a conversation I was have, if I were to have with somebody

who's like, very early on in their experience of gluttony, right?

Like, that would be a pretty straightforward conversation.

You know, it'd be just like, Hey, man, like, you really shouldn't be doing this,

like it's like you're beginning to develop like a unhealthy relationship with

food, like you really ought to not be doing this, this is what the Bible says about it.

And because it's not an ingrained pattern and way of being, that's a pretty

straightforward conversation.

They could go, oh, okay. And they could perhaps, you know, very easily begin

to change their behavior with some intentionality.

But if I'm talking with someone who has dealt with gluttony extensively,

or a lot, they might have a longer road to kind of unpack or undo that,

and that might involve really kind of breaking down and eliminating shame,

which is one of the things that that video doesn't do.

The video is very kind of shame full.

Yes, full of shame. Yes which if you're if you're dealing with gluttony as a

coping mechanism, particularly to deal with hurtful or unhelpful.

Difficult emotions, right you're likely to watch the video feel shamed feel

Negative emotions and then run go eat go eat because that's what you do if you're

with your emotions and like,

you know, and simply to say, like, I've done that too.

Well, who doesn't, right? Who doesn't use food as somewhat of a coping mechanism?

Yeah, like I can't keep Oreos in the house, Cameron, because like,

you know, and I know that like.

The serving size for an Oreo is a sleeve. Is a sleeve, I know.

All right, I just. It's a sleeve.

You know, I, you know, but it was, This is something I've, you know,

had to become aware of, and it developed really strongly when I was in college.

I would get, like, this is a funny story.

Kind of a I was I really college was busy and stressful and I was there was

this burger joint that was just like Had like the real thin shoestring fries

and I had a really good like bacon burger and I was just like I really want a vanilla coke a

bacon cheeseburger fries and gosh darn it a milkshake and I wanted it from that

specific like and And you know, and I just had this very specific craving.

I went and got it like door dashed to my dorm room.

And it was like, you know, there was like an event going on on the dorm floor

and I had like just some music playing and like one of the guys came by as I

was like digging into this hamburger and he was like,

and there was a song playing and it was kind of like a romantic type song and

he was just like, Luke, I feel like I'm stepping in on like a really private

moment here. Should I close the door?

Maybe. Maybe but you know, I share that to be somewhat humorous But also to

share that like I get it like we all like use food as a coping mechanism sometimes,

And it's something that we have to be like kind of aware of right my you know,

running to gluttony as a way to Soothe something inside of my soul rather than just fill my stomach.

Yeah, I'm learning to food to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

But the way to stop doing that isn't to beat yourself up about it. No.

You ultimately, you come back to the gospel. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. No, shame never brings people into a healthier relationship with God.

And the Lord does not use shame to bring us closer to Him.

Yeah. Right. Shame is a tool of the enemy that drives us away from Him,

that puts a wedge between us and our creator.

In fact, it was in the garden that the Lord covered the shame of Adam and Eve. Yes.

Right, with a sacrifice. Right, atonement. Yeah, atonement for sin.

So, okay, well, let's try and take that conversation about.

Either obesity or gluttony or however you wanna say it and like talk about its

relationship to the body, our physical bodies.

Because I think one of the main premises.

That he stands on is that your body, your physical body, outside of salvation,

is the greatest gift that God has given to you.

So if you misuse it... And he had some anachronistic.

Data about how it's proven that people with higher fat content live less than

people who are They're in shape and lift weights and whatever.

They live longer and they're healthier.

Like, oh, you're really like... No data.

Yeah. It just says it, right? And it may or may not be true. I don't know.

Right, right, right, right. But... Well, and I gotta say before we go fully

into this context, if you're on Christian social media, Christian Instagram,

there is a whole Christian subculture of Christian gym bros...

Oh, yeah, who are like, you know, like these really swole guys who are like,

Pumping some iron you're like you think you're watching a workout video and

next era like Proverbs 23, you know and like they you know there are a whole

lots of like my body is a temple for God flex in front of the mirror like which

like I'm not hating on no, I mean.

Like I'm in some cool video.

I'm in the gym four to five times a week, right? So but like it's not Yeah, it is.

It's a little overdone on Instagram. Sometimes. Yeah. There's like, yeah.

So there's a whole, there's an interesting subculture down there.

Not all of it's bad. Some of it's kind of cool. It's good. Some of it's very encouraging.

Some of it is a little bit like cringe vanity. Um, yeah, it's very, yeah.

But um, yeah. So like that. So I think that's kind of the basis of his whole

argument that obesity is, or gluttony is, a sin.

I'm gonna say obesity because we've already kind of made the distinction that

the two are different. Right. Right.

But I think that's kind of.

One of his main points is that, hey, you have a body, it's been given to you, it's a gift from God.

Now, if you don't use it correctly, if you treat it improperly, if you're unhealthy,

then you're kind of, you know, you're doing abuse to a gift of God. Right, yes.

So I think it's important to talk about that because I think there's some,

not to get too esoteric about the conversation here, but I think there's a really, really Western,

I don't mean like howdy cowboy Western, I mean,

like the Western world as opposed to the Eastern world, European world,

there's a really Western way of thinking about the body that is.

A really, that our faith in God is either embodied or disembodied,

and right now it's embodied, but someday it will be disembodied.

Meaning like part of salvation is God's plan to rescue us from these horrible bodies that we have.

And he's given us a body just in the meantime.

This is the thing I walk around in for now. Right, but it's just skin.

It's just our spiritual skin. And then someday we're gonna be released from

this body and we're gonna live the true spiritual life that we were meant to live.

There's also like a really utilitarian approach.

This kind of sense of like, what does the body like, its function,

and like how I function in the body, and like, so this like, what is it used for?

What is it, you know, all that. So there's- Well, yeah, it goes to like,

it tries to communicate that I am not my body.

Yeah. Who I am is not actually my body. It's not a part of my identity.

It's not a part of who God has made me to be. Right.

And I don't really believe that scripture or really actually teaches that at

all, or implies that even, that God is going to rescue us from these sinful bodies.

Well, God is gonna resurrect this body, and what sin has done to the body,

God will resurrect and glorify.

But when we talk about, if we get really down into theological weeds about the

theology of our bodies, the theology of our bodies as Christians is connected

to the theology of Jesus' body, right?

We have been, in Romans chapter six, we have been united with him in baptism,

or by faith, and through our baptism, we have been united with both the death

of Jesus and the resurrection of Jesus.

So our resurrection will mirror the resurrection of Jesus.

Well, when Jesus was resurrected back to new life, he wasn't resurrected in

some sort of spiritual state.

He had a physical body, he could be touched, he could eat food, right?

And I think that there is good reason to believe that his body in its resurrected

state was different. Yes.

There was some continuity to it. There was some glorification of that body.

He was not recognized. Yeah.

They did eventually recognize him. They did eventually recognize him.

Why? Well, because it was him and they could tell it was him.

Oh yeah, Jesus, that's you.

But it kind of looked different and I thought you were dead.

Yeah. Right. And you still have a hole in your side. Exactly.

Right. So the same body was resurrected.

And so if our death and resurrection is connected or united with the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

And I have to believe that it is that in our eternal state, the park bench in

heaven, you're gonna recognize me and I'm gonna recognize you.

05.04.17 05.04.17 Because the bodies in which God has given to us now is not

something that he's like,

he wasn't at the beginning of time, he's like, okay, Luke, Luke,

Spirit Luke, here's your skin that you're gonna wear for while you're in heaven,

and treat it good, because it's a gift that I'm giving to you,

and we'll get you a new one someday.

I mean, yeah, I suppose you could think about it that way, but in reality.

It is more like, it's not, I think what I don't like about that whole part part

right there is that it feels like,

he's making the argument that The body is only a gift you're given and not actually

a part of who you are by us through God,

Well, because this, I've talked about this before, but we like to think of,

you know, we have this very, what is it called? Like, not tri-theism.

There's this way in which we divide ourselves up into three or four parts,

depending on how you decide to, like, over-interpret the Bible, right?

We're usually a mind, body, and soul, right? And you draw a circle and you put,

like, a pie chart, and you're like, I've got a mind, I've got a body,

and I've got a soul. And, Like these three parts kind of make me up.

And the problem with that kind of imagery is that it puts a division between

my body, between my soul, and between my mind.

And you say like, oh, well, like, you know, those are my three parts and they

don't touch each other. They're parts of me.

And so it's kind of like, I don't know, like, you know, I take care of my body,

but that doesn't impact how I take care of my soul.

Yeah, and how I take care of my soul doesn't impact how I take care of my mind

When really the walls between those three?

Either don't exist or way more permeable. Yep, then we imagine them to be yes,

You know, we're way more holistic than that, right?

Well, cuz like imagine, you know like Well, you and I both know what it's like

when we don't get sleep or we don't get food.

Or we don't get food. We become hangry. I become very unsanctified if I don't have food.

It is laughable how many of my bad moods are caused by just lack of food at the current moment.

And I'm all of a sudden like, wow, I was being a bit of a jerk.

And really, I just needed to sit down and eat like a granola bar.

And that's one image or idea that are showing how the body is connected to the

soul, is connected to the mind, and connected to all of the different stuff.

So no, I don't think it's helpful to think about the body as a thing that my soul possesses.

It's part of who I am. Yeah, and so he uses in the video an example from scripture.

Yeah. And he says, this is how I'm gonna prove this.

It's the parable of the talents, It's Matthew chapter 25, 24, something like that.

And the parable of the talents essentially goes like, God gives,

you know, three different people money, right? Asks them to go out and use it, right?

And one of them goes back and multiplies it by 10, and one of them goes and

multiplies it by five, and the other is like, I am afraid of my master,

and so I bury what he give it, and I have no return on my investment, right?

And those servants, they bring back the money that they've used,

plus what they've, or that they were entrusted with, plus what they've reproduced

it into being, and the master is pleased with the one who has reproduced it by 10,

pleased with the one who has reproduced it by five, and angry with the one who

did nothing with it. Jon Sorrentino Right. Except got it dirty.

Tim Cynova Except got it dirty.

And so, if you take what God has given you, and you mistreat it,

or don't use it in the way that he wants you to use it, then there's anger associated with that.

Jon Sorrentino Right. Right, there's judgment associated with that.

Generally, okay, like at a very, at a super, super base level, yes.

All right, but what's the context here? Is Jesus talking about like everything

that God gives an individual person, they must use in a way in which is pleasing to him?

Is that the context of the parable of the talents?

No. No, it's not. It's not. Right? Jesus is speaking to the Jews. Yep.

Speaking to the Jewish religious leaders who have been entrusted with the law

and the prophets which testify to him, the Messiah of the world.

Right? They've been entrusted with the message that can save the world. Yes. Right?

And instead of using it to build the kingdom of God, they are suppressing it and burying it. Right?

And God's judgment will be upon them. Right. Because of it. So that's the direct,

immediate, original meaning of the text. Right.

If we were to apply it to ourselves, the most direct application is,

what do we do with the gospel that we've been entrusted with?

What do we do with the gospel? That's the most direct application.

You can draw it out to say, like, okay, well, what else has God entrusted me

with, and how should I steward that well?

But the unfortunate thing that I think his very wooden application of that passage

leads you to to is you could make the very clear application that the more swole you are,

more holier you are, because you've gotten a greater return on your investment.

And I, you might fall into gluttonous excess of muscle.

Yep. I was just like, yeah, there's definitely an excess of muscle out there.

Um, but, uh, you know, I don't think that's true. I don't think that just because

someone is like more, I don't think just because Arnold is thicker means that he's holier.

Like it's not a, there's not something godly about that necessarily.

No. Okay. So.

Are we on to our third part? I think so. Yeah. Like if you, like say he uses

the parable of the talents to make his point right does the point remain even if the,

um premise that he makes it on is false or and like is it is the conclusion

the same even if the argument is bad yeah well i think one of the things like

this is interesting to talk about,

this has perhaps become a bad example to even think about that with because,

we've mostly dismantled what he said um because we're like well like he's saying

that obesity is sin, we're like, no, not necessarily.

There's a lot of reasons why someone may be obese, and not all of those are

connected to the sin of gluttony.

So ultimately, in his case, his point doesn't stand, because ultimately,

it almost lacks, in my opinion, it lacks enough nuance to be incorrect.

Yeah, I mean, I think we're probably, because we don't agree with it,

were, I think, if pressed on the issue, he would say, well, yeah,

gluttony is the sin, obesity is the sin, is what we actually see.

Right, again, yeah, which I wanna talk about that a little bit,

but the philosophical question of does someone's premise,

or if someone's logic is bad and someone's argument is bad, does that invalidate their conclusion?

And the answer's no, right? It's like I've learned like, you know, like logic.

So like a logical fallacy is the slippery slope fallacy, um,

saying that if, well, if you do this one thing, that's going to lead to this

next thing, which will lead to this next thing, which will lead to this awful conclusion.

Now that's a logical fallacy. If you're having a logical, a rhetorical,

a philosophical argument, someone will call you out on that saying,

uh, a does not necessarily equal B. Right.

Um, you know, It's kind of a it's kind of a you know, a philosophic Like if

we were to talk about like the argument to of gateway drugs,

right like say, oh, well if you start.

Vaping or something like that and then that's gonna lead you to do this that's

gonna lead you to do that It's gonna lead you to do this and you're gonna end

up with this awful conclusion well,

Experientially, we know that to be true sometimes but it is not a default true.

A does not always necessarily equal B. And so that's a logical fallacy.

So correlation and causation. Correlation, causation.

Yeah, just because the argument that I've made.

Is wrong doesn't mean that the conclusion I've ended up at is necessarily wrong. You know?

Like, even like another interesting example of this would be Paul.

When Paul's in jail and people are telling him, Paul, there's like people out

here preaching the gospel, but they're kind of like talking trash about you

while they're preaching the gospel, and they seem to be doing it mostly just

because they want to be on the cool train.

And Paul's like, Like it doesn't matter whether or not they're preaching the

gospel for good reasons or sinful gain, as long as they're still preaching the

gospel, the conclusion's correct.

So that's my answer to the question a little bit, but I don't think that that's

an excuse for poor reasoning and argumentation. No, no.

I would say I'm close to that. I'm close to that reasoning like,

But That that reasoning really only holds water for me when I end up agreeing with the conclusion,

Yeah You know if I if I disagree with the conclusion that I'm gonna say well

Yeah, all the way back into your premises are wrong. Yeah, also.

So I think it has to be a case-by-case basis, but But sometimes I think we could try to over-explain.

Or over-nuance our conclusions. And in the over-nuancing or over-explaining,

we actually create a false premise upon which our conclusion is built.

Sometimes it's just better to state the conclusion.

Right, like it would have been interesting if he had just read some scripture

that mentioned gluttony.

That would be all he would need to do and then be able to say,

here's what we believe gluttony is, here's how it can be connected to obesity

or lusts or sins of the flesh.

But gluttony can also be a sin of the mind, a sin of the spirit, a sin of the flesh.

And so, yeah, I don't.

I'm going to agree with his conclusion that gluttony, yeah, gluttony is a sin.

There's no other conclusion to get to.

Granting that that's what he actually means. Granted that's what he actually means.

If that's not what he actually means, if he means obesity is universally a sin, I do not agree with that.

If he means gluttony is a sin, well, yeah, I would have to just flat out say

the Bible is incorrect in that.

I'm not going to say that. I don't believe that, because I do believe the sin

of gluttony is indeed a sin, the sin of excess.

But I also don't believe that it's only associated with obesity.

I want to talk a little bit about, I have had a friend who was constantly coming

up to me and he was just like,

he was an interesting cat, but he was just always, you know,

way up in the clouds thinking about stuff but he was just like the medium is the message.

The thing he said to me over and over and over again. And as we talk about this

video that's just constantly what's in my mind is the medium through which this

guy's communicating his idea has impacted the message that he's ultimately delivered.

Because like so like short form video right you're scrolling on Instagram,

why do you stop, or TikTok, or YouTube, whatever, why do you stop to watch a video?

Catches your attention. Yeah, right like if you swipe to a video and It's like

a empty wall with paint drying.

You're gonna swap you're gonna move to the next video You you want to be caught

you want we stop and watch a video because of what catches our attention,

now the unfortunate thing is that it's probably a lot of people and like churches

and like I know that like even Mmm,

maybe we've been guilty of making content that's got really good ideas in them really helpful content,

but You have to be patient enough to sit down and watch it or listen to it or

like get into it It doesn't always have a like ooh cool hook.

Yeah, that will get someone to stop and watch it Mm-hmm and the temptation right?

This is where clickbait comes in, right? You see the thumbnail or the headline

of an article, oh my gosh, five things you're eating right now that are going

to end your life tomorrow.

This one thing will save you from a life of ruin or whatever,

and you're like, oh, I need to know.

And you click on it and you find out it's like, oh, well, it's not,

the headline didn't lead up to what it actually was, or the thumbnail.

And so it's possible that in him trying to make content that is easily engaged with,

likable, shareable, in the internet world, in Instagram for his instance,

that he's shaping and forming his content in such a way that is transforming it.

You know, like we just said, what if he had just read Scripture Verses?

Well, chances are, we wouldn't have seen it because nobody really would have

watched that video. Um, yeah, yeah, I don't, I don't disagree.

Um, you know, I wonder if your friend who uses that phrase a lot or you,

I have, I've, I've heard you use it a lot.

So if we could say that the medium.

Dictates the effectiveness of the message rather than the medium is the message.

Cause for me, it kind of feels like the medium is the false premises,

he makes false premise, but the conclusion is generally ends up being okay. Yeah. Right.

So the.

My feeling there, my thought there is.

He does himself a disservice with the effectiveness of the conclusion because

of the medium or the way in which he uses the argument,

the spirit in which he shows up in the argument or whatever.

So it doesn't change the conclusion.

The conclusion remains the same. It does add a conclusion Which is what that?

His his the way in which because like he goes on to like this really like this,

pretty guilt and heavy laden like Example of like well, like you should feel

bad for all the disabled people that don't have a body that they can ruin, right?

In just the general way in which he approaches the topic is is indicating like,

oh, that's an okay way to talk about this topic and way to treat people.

Like I should, like actually, I actually know someone who I would avoid having

this conversation with because he gets irrationally angry and mean and derisive of people who are obese.

And I'm like, that is not an okay way to talk about to anyone,

like no matter how much you think it's their fault," and all of that.

And so there is something that unintentionally, right?

We could say that his clear objective message is to raise an awareness about sin, but,

because of the way in which he's communicated it, the medium,

there is a message attached to that, that, oh, it's okay to say that,

it's okay to interpret that Bible passage that way, way to treat people this way, and so forth.

Yeah, I can get behind that, I can get behind that, yeah.

So what did we determine today? I don't know.

I don't know that we did determine anything. No, we didn't determine anything. Other than there,

I think, that we would have, we prefer, I mean, a more pastoral approach to

what is a sensitive and nuanced issue when it comes to, like, it's not,

the sin of gluttony is not nuanced issue, but obesity is a more nuanced issue

that is not always firmly rooted in a scripture and verse. Right.

And sometimes we need to take a holistic approach to things. Yes.

It's not just simply stop doing that.

Right. Because like we've been reading in Romans, the law tends to have a way of increasing sin.

And so if we just simply say, well, the Bible says that's wrong,

we're giving someone the law that does not always produce righteousness.

Often it produces the opposite.

Right. And as sin increases because of the law, like the grace of God, how much more,

we read that in Paul for like three different times in chapter four,

how much more than, how much more than, how much more is the grace of God than the power of sin.

So there's grace in it, for sure.

Yeah, and we hope that our conversation today was graceful.

Yes, well, I always come back, here's the thing that I.

This is the thing that bothers me,

and it's a conversation or it's a thing that I've said to maybe a handful of

people over the last few years who have come at me for various reasons.

Don't come at Cameron. Don't come at me, bro. Don't come at him.

He's just gonna warn all of you. Yeah, who have come at me to say things like,

you know, you're judgmental of me because I heard you say that you think X is

sinful or whatever, right?

And my response, like, has Cameron Linehart ever treated someone poorly and judgmentally?

Yes, I have, right? And I need to repent of those things in those times and

I need to seek their forgiveness.

I need to ask the Lord to help me be more like Christ in those moments, but.

We'll just use the example from today. You may be a person who struggles with

obesity, and you might hear us talking about gluttony as a sin,

and might feel inclined to say something like,

you have been judgmental of me, and have treated me like you're treating me

poorly because of what you've said, and my question to them,

usually in a situation like that is, okay,

we've had significant interaction in life before, right?

Like I've been your pastor for a long time, or I've been your friend for a long

time, or we see each other often, right?

Have I ever treated you without dignity, respect, honor, and love?

And I mean, sometimes the answer is yes, and we have to have a conversation about that, right?

Like, but I endeavor to live my life in the treatment of others as I would like

to be treated. Yeah. Right?

Despite what I may believe or think about their lifestyle, because their sin is not my issue.

It's not my problem, any more than my sin is theirs.

And so it annoys me when people are like, oh, you hold this stance on that issue.

You must be so mean to all those people.

Actually, I'm really not mean to anyone.

Or at least I try not to be mean to anyone. I try to be gentle and kind and patient. Sometimes,

So much so that it gets me in trouble with pharisaical Christians Who want me

to be meaner to people in their sins?

So it's like I can't freaking win for losing here.

Yeah, you know but I would rather err on the side of,

Being too gentle and patient and kind right people who are sinning then being

too harsh And misrepresenting the grace offered to them in Jesus Christ.

Yeah Every context, or every conversation has its context, right?

If we were having a conversation with someone, and not just with each other

and about a broad range of topics, it would flavor it.

And that's why we, because we did, we did include what is a pastoral response

to try and bring ourselves to articulate a little bit of a contextualized,

fleshed-out, incarnational.

How many buzzwords can I stick in, way of talking about it, and not just up

here, pie in the sky. Yeah.

Yeah. So, yeah. Well, we hope you enjoyed this episode of the podcast.

We truly, 100% serious, did not put this episode closest to Thanksgiving.

It just happened to be. It just happened that way. It was what we decided to

talk about right before we turned on the mics, so.

But we hope you, at least the conversation was helpful for you in some way.

If you have comments or questions, you can always drop them in the comment section

if you're watching this on YouTube.

Or if you would like to ask us a question that maybe you want to hear us talk

about on the podcast, you can text that in to 716-201-0507.

And as always if you wouldn't mind liking sharing subscribing sending this to

your friends Commenting wherever you are.

That would be a great help for us We're our subscriber numbers have jumped pretty

significantly in the last month or so almost doubled in the last month I'd love

to hit a hundred by the new year.

That'd be fun 100 subscribers by the new

year How about this if we hit 100 subscribers? What are we gonna do cam?

I don't know I was gonna say let's we'll put up a merch store But who the heck

wants a merch store for a podcast that no one listens to? I don't know.

Music.

I don't know, maybe.

Maybe we'll make like a limited edition amount of hats or something.

Yes, or coffee mugs or something. I don't know. Anyway, yeah,

no one wants that. No one cares. Alright.

Anyway, thanks for listening and we'll catch you on the next one.