Do Unto The Least of These...
Welcome to the uncut podcast. I'm pastor Luke. I'm pastor Cameron. And this is the uncut podcast where we have honest uncut conversations about faith, life, and ministry.
Cameron:Got it right that time?
Luke:We got it right that time. Just gotta let my muscle memory take over and not think too much about what I'm saying. Mhmm. Well, thanks everybody for joining us today. Today, we're gonna take a I don't know.
Luke:Is this a question?
Cameron:It's a question.
Luke:It's a question. Yep. Wasn't necessarily submitted to the podcast, but we thought it would make a good topic of conversation because it is something that we encounter some with some regularity.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:So, Cameron, do you wanna introduce our topic for today?
Cameron:So the topic of conversation today is whether or not feeding people is enough. So this question came out of real life for us. Yeah. We were at a you and I were at a meeting, and a another ministry leader in the area came up and, told us about a conversation that they had had with someone else.
Luke:Someone else. So it's very anonymous. We don't actually know who asked this question.
Cameron:Right. And they had heard or or seen that Conduits Food Truck Ministry had been in the paper. Yep. 3 or 4 times in the last couple of months. Yep.
Cameron:We have
Luke:a food truck that runs. Yes.
Cameron:It runs, and we go downtown into the, essentially, the city center and Sunday afternoons in particular Mhmm. Provide a hot meal and warm clothing For free. For free for anyone that needs it.
Luke:Yep. Anyone who comes up to it can Yep.
Cameron:Have that. Along with, you know, prayer and conversation Yep. And relationship building and all of that. So it's been getting a little bit of press, so I'm not totally surprised that it's in people's conversation.
Luke:Small
Cameron:town. Small town. Yeah. 30,000 people here in the city, about a 100,000 in the county. So, but we we we don't go out looking for it.
Cameron:I I don't ask. I I have not asked anyone to do a feature. I'm not Nope. It's Don't care.
Luke:It's happened pretty naturally. People have just said, oh, this is a thing that's happening. Let's let other people know about it.
Cameron:I absolutely do not care about press for it. It. Yep. So this person came up to us in a, a meeting that we were all at and said, well, someone else asked me. Mhmm.
Cameron:Or not even really asked me, but I think it was more of like a statement.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:Certainly conduit isn't just giving out food. Are they? Right. And that was the end of the question.
Luke:It was the end of the question, which you and I both, we were sitting there and we were like, wait, what's what's the question?
Cameron:The question. I paused. Yeah. Because I was thinking like, certainly, you're gonna finish. Certainly, you're gonna say something else.
Cameron:Right?
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:And so that was the kind of the question not even the question, but really the statement. Certainly, condo it's not just giving out food. Right. Food truck.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:And to be honest with you, I've had that or similar questions enough to where I know what is implicit behind it. Right. Right. What what the real thing that they wanna know is is, well, which is really certainly your, as you're handing them the food, you're also handing them a track. Yeah.
Cameron:Or you're making them pray with you or you're making them show you that they, that they are not a person of means so they actually need the meal. Yeah. They're trying to you make them you make them prove the need for a meal as if the fact that I'm a human being doesn't prove the need that I Right. Have for food. Yep.
Cameron:Anyway, I just just a little bit of disclaimer. You might see me get a little fired up in this episode because this is a hot button issue for me.
Luke:Yeah. And and I think in all fairness too, the person who was approaching us was coming in good charity and was just, like, sharing, like, hey. Somebody came to me and approached this. So I don't think it's it's not a we're not directing anything towards the person who brought this conversation to us. No.
Luke:We're talking about somebody so far removed that we don't know who they are. We'll never know who they are. Yeah. But the same conversation comes up every year we do around thanks giving. Yes.
Luke:Right? Because we also do, like, some thanksgiving meal giveaways. And there's lots of those that happen in the city, but one of the reasons that I think ours does so well is because we don't require people to jump through, legal, like, requirement hoops, bring this ID, bring this paperwork, da da da da da da. Like Mhmm. We're just like, let us be generous Yep.
Luke:With the abundance that we have Mhmm. To any and all who would desire to take of it.
Cameron:Correct. Without any, like, trying to stand in the seat of validating a person's need for food.
Luke:Yes. Right. Yeah. Or yeah. Is that kind of the is that kind of the 2, I guess, the 2 is that cover the 2 prongs of the of of the objection is either 1, it's not enough to give them food without ensuring some sort of forced gospel or religious conversation.
Luke:Yep. Or we're doing it in a way that is irresponsible by not ensuring, like, paperwork proved need.
Cameron:Correct. I think those are the 2 prongs of objections Yeah. That people usually usually bring.
Luke:Yeah. Which one of those do you wanna talk about?
Cameron:Well, we can talk about both of them, really. Yeah. But so to answer that person's question, my answer was pretty, I don't know, I felt like pretty simple. Like, it was basically if we did just give them food, would that be so bad? Right.
Cameron:Like, what what exactly would be wrong with just giving them food? Food. Because my the way that I read the gospels and the way that I see the gospels is that there were lots of instances where Jesus commanded his disciples to feed the people. Mhmm. Not out of a sense of like feed them and while you're feeding them, ensure that you're sharing the gospel with them.
Luke:Oh, yeah. He noticed they were hungry.
Cameron:And he had compassion on them.
Luke:And then he fed them.
Cameron:Yeah. Well, the scripture literally says Jesus saw their need and had compassion.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:The disciples came to him. So, like, there's a there's lots of examples in the scripture. Right? We have Matthew 15 Mhmm. 29 through 39.
Cameron:We have Matthew 1413 through 21. We have Matthew 25 31 through 46. Mark 6 30 through 44. Mark 8 1 through 13. Luke 9 10 through 17, John 6:1 through 15.
Cameron:All examples where Jesus, large crowd of people, recognizing they were very hungry, disciples coming to him and being like, Jesus, these people have a really significant need for food right now. Send them home.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Send them away.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:So that they can eat.
Luke:Go somewhere else and get
Cameron:food. Go to send them somewhere else so that they can get food. And what does Jesus say in almost every one of those instances? I'm not sending them you feed them.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:You feed them. Mhmm. Like, why would we send them away? Yeah. So There's even the
Luke:the most scandalous one in which they're not out of food. They're out of wine. Right. And he just gives them wine.
Cameron:Just gives them more wine. Right? So some of these instances, they're all essentially the same in each gospel. They speak of some of the same same situations. But, like, Matthew chapter 15, verse 29, Jesus left there, went along the Sea of Galilee, then he went up on a mountainside and sat down.
Cameron:Great crowds came to him, bringing the lame, the blind, the crippled, the mute, and many others. Laid them at his feet, and he healed them. The people were amazed when they saw the mute speaking, the crippled being well, the lame walking, the blind seeing, and they praised God of Israel. Jesus called his disciples and said, I have compassion for these people. They've already been with me for 3 days.
Cameron:They have nothing to eat. I do not wanna send them away hungry or or they may collapse on their on the way. His disciples answered, where can we where can we get enough bread in this remote place to feed such a crowd? And that's the loaves and the fishes. Right?
Cameron:Yep. Other instances where they, you know, in chapter 14, as evening approaches, the disciples came to came to him and said, this is a remote place, and it's already getting late. Send the crowds away so that they can go to the village and buy themselves some food. But Jesus replied, they do not need to go away. You give them something to eat.
Cameron:Right? It was it Jesus was recognizing their responsibility to feed the crowds And I think recognize more than just having a spiritual obligation in their lives, but also actually having an obligation to meet some physical needs. Yep. You know? Now elsewhere in the gospels, you know, like Matthew chapter 25 is a good example where some may feel like Jesus is speaking in both hyperbole and analogy or metaphor judgment, how people will be separated.
Cameron:Mhmm. He he will, you know, he will separate them, the sheep from the goats. Well, how will we, you know, like, how are you gonna separate them, Lord? How do you how do we know? Then the king will say to those on his right.
Cameron:He will separate the sea sheep sheep from the goats. He will put, the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. The king will say to those on his right, come, you who are highly blessed among my father, take your inheritance. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink.
Cameron:I was a stranger and you invited me in. I needed clothes and you clothed me. I was sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me. Right?
Cameron:Mhmm. Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you thirsty and give you something to drink? When do we see you a stranger and invite you in or needing clothes and clothes you clothe you? When did we see you sick and in prison and go to visit you? And the king will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.
Cameron:Mhmm. And then he says it in the reverse for the goats. Yep. You didn't feed me. You didn't clothe me.
Cameron:You didn't give me something to drink. You didn't visit me when I was sick. You like you didn't. You didn't. You didn't.
Cameron:You didn't. You didn't. It was based upon, like, a person's physical needs.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:They saw the physical needs of the person, but instead of addressing them, the righteous address the physical needs of the person. The unrighteous, I guess, seemingly ignore them or think that they're not as important. Right. Right?
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And this is not this is not just a Jesus issue. This was an early church issue.
Luke:Mhmm. Right. The feeding of the widows.
Cameron:The feeding of the widows in acts chapter 6. Right? They recognized that there were that the Hebraic Jews among them and the Greek Jew like, there was Hebraic Jews and there was Gentile Jews and or and Gentile believers. And they were, there was neglect for was it were they was it the Greek the Gentile Jews or the Hebraic Jews that were being neglected?
Luke:It was the Gentile Jews
Cameron:that were being neglected. Gentile Jews. Gentile Christians. Gentile, Not Gentile Jews.
Luke:Goodness. Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron:You're you're right. It's Yeah.
Luke:Or the the the Greek, the Hellenistic Jews. The hellen they were Jews. They were just Hellenistic.
Cameron:The Grecian Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked. Yeah. So the Grecian Jews. Yeah. Okay.
Cameron:So what was the response then of the early church? Hey. We have we have widows among us who are poor. Obviously, they're poor. Widows are poor.
Cameron:And, they are being overlooked in the daily daily distribution of food. That should tell you something. Mhmm. They're being overlooked. What do you what should we do about that early church leaders?
Cameron:Well, let's just say a prayer for them. Right. Let's let's let's let's preach the gospel at them. What was the response, though?
Luke:Well, they set aside they created deacons.
Cameron:They created a whole church office. Right. Not like an office that you like have a desk and a chair in.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:But a job within the church. Yeah. Right. A job within the church because they recognized that this was an important aspect of righteousness.
Luke:Yeah. Right? Or the passage that immediately came to my mind
Cameron:is James. Right.
Luke:Right. Yeah. James 2.
Cameron:Probably one of the most pointed ones.
Luke:Right. Says verse 14 of chapter 2 says, what good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or sister without clothes and daily food. If one of you state says to them, go in peace, keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about their physical needs, what good
Cameron:is it? Mhmm. Mhmm. What good
Luke:is it? Like Mhmm. In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action is
Cameron:dead. Mhmm.
Luke:Like, James, the brother of Jesus, is just like, yeah. What good is it for you to just like, hey. Did you know Jesus loves you? But I'm not gonna feed you, though.
Cameron:Right. Yeah. Hey. God bless, brother. Alright.
Cameron:Hope you hope hope you get what you need. I have what you need, but Right. God bless.
Luke:Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron:So the point there the point then is to say to just to, you know, kind of list off all of those scriptures in rapid fire is my my contention is that feeding people is the gospel. Taking care of people's physical needs actually is an incarnation and a proclamation of the gospel because it does what Jesus did. It does what we see the early church do, and it fulfills what we see the epistles commanding. Yeah. And so it is in okay.
Cameron:You you could you could say, I I've I've got like this opinion or this way of talking about how, where, when it comes to gospel, like evangelism in the gospel, that there's incarnation and there's proclamation. Yep. So, I'm not I'm not saying that all evangelism happens only incarnationally. Sure. But I'm also not saying that it only happens from the state, from the standpoint of proclamation.
Cameron:Right. You need to do both. You need to both say the words and you need to both be about the words.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And being about the words, I think, is taking seriously the reality that in the gospel, people were fed without any bait and switch of religious, like
Luke:Well, because that's that's what Jesus, like, the those words of Jesus are particularly strong in that. Like, it he doesn't mention proclamation. He just mentions, did you, like and he doesn't say he doesn't qualify and say that they are brothers in the faith or that they're, you know, like, he doesn't qualify it. He's just like, did you do these things? Mhmm.
Luke:And I we're not there's not if someone who is hungry needs food
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:Giving them food is a good thing. Yes. And the fact that it's coming from someone who is claiming the name of Christ Mhmm. Means something important. Yes.
Luke:Mhmm. That is an important thing that a church who explicitly, you know, we call ourselves Christians, we attach ourselves to Jesus Christ. Like, if we're like, you matter to us because we're saying you also matter to Jesus, here's a warm food. Mhmm. That is significant.
Luke:That is not just feeding people.
Cameron:It is. Right. And it's it like not not only like incarnational ministry builds the foundation that is necessary for proclamation ministry. Mhmm. Like you you earn the right through incarnation to proclaim the gospel to a heart that now is receptive because they see that your actions or that your words are aligned with your actions and vice versa.
Cameron:So it's not just like a, I'm gonna give you this food so that you listen to my message so that you come to my church so that you stroke the ego of the attendant sheet Right. So that you do all these things Right. As if it doesn't make any diff like, if if there's not some, like, numeric value at my local church because of this thing, then it doesn't it wasn't worth it. Yeah. Feeding you wasn't worth it.
Cameron:Right. And I think it was mother Teresa that said no act of love is ever wasted.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And any act of love done in the name of Christ, even without the proclamation of it being the name of Christ is a act of love that's not wasted. Right. And honestly, even from a, like, a ministry methodology and a philosophy of ministry thing Mhmm. People see right through the bait and switch. Oh my gosh.
Luke:Well, like, you know that if you're being invited to a hotel lobby for some free food and, somebody's gonna talk to you about a fantastic opportunity. Like, you know it's a timeshare, and you know you're gonna run. Like Yes. You don't wanna go to that. Like Yeah.
Luke:Like, yeah. Like, we can I you know, we see it a a gazillion times every single day? Give me your email. Give me your phone number. I will give you this free PDF.
Luke:I'll give you this free thing. Yep. Why? Because they wanna market to you. Right?
Luke:And we, like, you know, I I don't know if everybody's like me or what, but I'm like like a habitual unsubscriber. Like, I just am constantly unsubscribing from thing. I will. Alright. Give me the free thing.
Luke:Unsubscribe because I don't want to be marketed to. I don't want to be told what to buy or sold to. Like, we run and we we hate things that feel like they're just a bait and switch that are selling us things. But when it comes to faith, we're like, well, it's okay for us to bait and switch when it comes to our faith. Mhmm.
Luke:But really what that does is it just cheapens what we're doing, cheapens what you do, and then it cheapens what you say. Mhmm.
Cameron:A 100%. Do you wanna talk any about, like, this and then we kind of talked about the second prong of it, but the prong of needing to, demonstrate my need. Gosh.
Luke:Okay. Yeah. I mean, like, I guess, like, on one scale, I think that that comes from a place of, man, like, that impulse, I think, comes from a place where you've not been hungry enough to have
Cameron:to ask for food. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Luke:Because I don't know. Like, it like, it is not a good feeling to have to ask somebody for money to get by, money for groceries. It is not a good thing to have to ask somebody, not even just for money, but for, can I just have some food? Mhmm. I don't care what it is.
Luke:Like, I'm not gonna it's not like I'm asking for a gift card to McDonald's. I'm asking for food. You just give it to me. Mhmm. Like, the amount of humility, like, that that, like, that is a really, really hard place to be in.
Luke:We live in a place where now, like, both of us can open up our phones and we could DoorDash in a 5 course meal to our to our door. Mhmm. What is it like to be in a place where you have to just ask strangers for food? And if we get to a place where we're like, okay. Yeah.
Luke:You're willing to put yourself in perhaps one of the most low positions possible by just coming up and saying, I would really like this free food because I I need it or want it or I am hungry, but prove it to me. Mhmm. I just can't, like, I can't see how that's compassionate. It also like, it's not like people were taking the food and then tossing it in the dumpster. Right.
Luke:It means they're hungry. And then we're saying, well, some people's hunger matters more than other people's hunger.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And and I know you've said this and I agree with it. Like, we don't really care how much money you make or if someone's coming up there who is completely capable of taking hold, and going and buying their own meal, but they're coming in there. They wanna take advantage of the free food that we're giving out of generosity. Yeah. Like Right.
Luke:Let us keep the heart of the gospel in our generosity.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And, like, the gospel call to everybody is wide and far Mhmm. And without qualification. So let's do the same in our own generosity and our deeds.
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:And then the final thing I would say is it's a it's an element of control. People love to be generous when they feel like they can exercise control over the generosity. Or discretion. Or discretion.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And I'm not saying that you shouldn't be that there's not a place to be wise with how we are generous. But at the same time, there is a point to just being generous. Like, if we are exercising, we're like, well, I don't want my generosity to be abused. At some point, that spirit or that inclination begins to erode the generosity. Yep.
Luke:It's no longer generous. It's actually, because generous is like giving in abundance willingly. And what I'm saying in my desire to be discretionary is I'm beginning to say, like, I'm actually nervous and unwilling to be that free giving and that generous.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:We're putting a hamper on it. Mhmm. And so I just like, for me, it's at least the way that we're operating. Like, I I think there's no I can't see a single problem without, with just being saying, like, if you're coming to this to this food truck and you want some food, you can have it. No questions asked.
Luke:Yeah. Yeah. Like some of
Cameron:the some of the things that happen or some of the objections to that is, well, we need to be better stewards. Similar to what you said. Like, we need to be better stewards of the things that God has given to us. And I'm not gonna disagree with that at all.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:I have so seldom believed that that's actually a person's reason for wanting to withhold or get proof. Mhmm. I think, that this person needs it. I think that that's the spiritual excuse that a lot of Christians use. Well, we need to be good stewards of these things.
Cameron:Can't just let anyone have them. We need to be good stewards of it. I think instead, it comes more from a place of pride and judgment. Right.
Luke:Well, I mean, it's not like we're it's not like we're handing out cash.
Cameron:No. We're food. It's food. Food. It's freaking food.
Cameron:Like like, I don't care how rich you are. I don't care how poor you are. You know what the only qualification is for a person to receive food? That they're hungry or not even that they're hungry. Right.
Cameron:But that that they're going to be hungry at some point and that that food can solve that hunger problem. Are you gonna be hungry at some point? Okay. The food's for you. You tell me you're never gonna be hungry again?
Cameron:Alright. Well, maybe we should give it to someone who will be hungry again. Yep. So I just don't get this I I just don't see the objection other than it being a sense of, like you said, primarily, I wanna have control over who gets this and who doesn't get it. Right.
Cameron:And so I'm gonna make you prove that you need it more than someone else as if there's a sliding scale of need that everyone understands, or that is, you know, standard. So You
Luke:know, you say that and you're talking about that that language of good steward, I wanna be a good steward, makes me think of the parable of the talents. Like, well, one of them wanted to be so good of a steward that he just buried it in the ground.
Cameron:He didn't use it at all.
Luke:He didn't use it at all. Like, there is a there is a point to which we have to, like, no, no, I've been given this to give it away. Yeah. To do something with it. And God will bless that.
Luke:Let me not be such a good steward. I end up just burying it in the ground and doing nothing with it.
Cameron:Well, I I think an an important question to ask ourselves in a situation like that is what do you think is the more likely scenario? When I get get to heaven and I'm standing before the proverbial pearly gates and I'm speaking with Jesus, you know. Is he likely to say to me, you were way, way, way too generous. Yeah. You just gave things.
Cameron:You gave food to people without even finding out if they needed it. Like, how dare you, you horrible steward of the things that I've entrusted to you? Is that the likely scenario or is the likely more likely scenario to be like, I sent you hungry people. I sent you people who needed clothes when they were cold. I sent you people who had no place to lay their head and you were worried about whether or not they needed what you had.
Cameron:Yep. Like, what is the more likely scenario? Like, I guess or what what what one would you rather have? I would rather be in a place of judgment for being too generous, which I don't think it's it's a fake scenario. Right.
Cameron:Right? But I think I would rather You'd
Luke:rather have Jesus angry at you because you were too generous Yes. Than have Jesus be angry at you because you were too good of a steward.
Cameron:Correct. Yeah. So, we'll spend it all. I'll give it all. And I am really, really, really comfortable with the Lord determining if I was a bad steward or not.
Cameron:Of those things. Yeah. So yeah. So to aunt, to go back to the original situation. Yeah.
Cameron:What I'm certainly conduits doing something else. I will tell you that we are, we are doing something else, but if we weren't, it would still be okay. Yeah. It would still be enough. It would still be great.
Cameron:It would still be God honoring and God glorifying. It would still be everything that the gospel requires of us to be. Yeah. And I wouldn't I wouldn't change that.
Luke:Yeah. Because at the end of the day, when that food truck goes home, there are still hungry people in the city.
Cameron:Still hungry people. Mhmm. Yep. Alright. Alright.
Cameron:Well, I think we answered that question.
Luke:I think we did.
Cameron:Well, I hope we did. Probably not to everyone's satisfaction, but it is what it is.
Luke:Comments if we didn't.
Cameron:Yeah. I mean, let's let's fight about it. Listen. I am ready to fight in the comments. I will show up in the comments as Cameron Leinhardt, and I will be there to fight about it.
Cameron:Okay? You will. So if you have any, questions or follow ups for this, certainly, you can drop them in the comments. You can always text us on our text line here at the podcast. 716-201-0507.
Cameron:As always, please like, share, subscribe, comment, rate, whatever from wherever you're listening and we will catch you on the next one.
