Emotional Health & Leadership

Episode 55 - Emotional Health
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Luke: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor

Cameron: Luke. And I am Pastor Cameron. And this is

Luke: the Uncut Podcast where we have uncut, honest conversations about faith, life, and Oh, Cameron, we're sitting down today. We were kind of talking a few minutes ago of like, what should we sit down to talk

Cameron: about? We had all kinds of topics.

Luke: We did. We were talking about maybe talking about politics, which we will most definitely talk about this year because literally everyone's going to talk about politics this year.

Cameron: And we have

Luke: a sermon series planned on it. I got a sermon series planned on it. So we will be talking about politics. Um, but just probably not today.

Luke: Today didn't feel like the day for that. So we decided to come down and talk about the broad topic of emotional

Cameron: health, health, specifically maybe in leadership. But [00:01:00] also just across the board. Yeah. Um, Some of that was brought up because yesterday you sat in on a conversation, online conversation. I was hoping to, and I was got tied up in a meeting and couldn't get there, but a zoom call with cross point ministry, executive director, Cliff.

Cameron: I almost said his name wrong, a good friend of mine, uh, Cliff Roth, um, talking about the, um, essentially the topic of emotional health and trust and leadership. Yep. So why don't we kind of. Let you talk a little bit about that That zoom call And then we can maybe springboard and some topics off of that.

Cameron: Yep

Luke: I think so. The first is it was kind of a one. It was a really great. I think it's a really good Um, they're calling it the trustworthy leader seminar and you know, they're going to be kind of [00:02:00] talking about these different topics I think they're meeting once a quarter to talk about different topics that are important to people becoming and You Growing into trustworthy, strong, reliable leaders.

Luke: Um, and the topic yesterday was about the leader's emotional health, and they kind of started off by giving a definition for what are emotions. Now, I don't have my notes in front of me, so I'm not going to be able to remember the exact definition that they gave, but I really liked how they said it, is that emotions are messengers of relational need And I don't think they said messengers messengers is my own I think Way, I like I like because I feel like it's a little bit more But it's something they had something in there that was like messenger.

Luke: I just can't remember the exact wording um [00:03:00] but they Communicate something they tell us something they come with a message about a need we have That is relational in some nature. Um, and then we kind of went in and talked about needs, needs of, ooh, can I, needs of mattering, and needs of, um, I want to say like, Security or safety or something like that.

Luke: I remember the four subs seen safe, secure, and another one. See, I didn't bring my notes down. You go get your notes. No, no, it's fine. Um, but so we all have these, like these needs that we kind of need relationally from people. Um, so the

Cameron: premise then is that all of our emotions are, they [00:04:00] are rooted in.

Cameron: Relationship? Yeah. Yeah. So, yep. Or, or they're rooted in the topic of relationship, the soil of relationship. Maybe, um, we should, that should be, that should be copyrighted. Needs are rooted in the soil of relationships. I like that. Yeah. Um, But uh What's I saying? Oh, yeah, so it in some way shape or form is going to reveal an emotional need Yes, or a relational need.

Cameron: Mm hmm that you have.

Luke: Yes. Okay need needs to be met Relationally, okay, right and then we talked a little bit about how Emotions are maybe closer to the body than they are closer to the mind Mm hmm Um, and What is meant by that? Well, the meaning [00:05:00] by that is that we, like, we feel emotions before we cognitively understand them.

Luke: And emotions, I didn't know this for a very long time. And, and so, there are people who were like me who live life and never really actually pay attention to the fact that Emotions cause physical things inside of your body, and actually one of the best ways to identify emotions sometimes is through paying attention to your physical sensations.

Luke: If you're stressed, or your shoulder's all hunched, if you're angry, is your gut kind of like Kind of all knotted up. Is your chest kind of coming in on yourself? Like, are you wanting to clench something? Or your, is your kind of getting that like sense of tears and stuff like that? Like, what is all of those physical sensations telling us about the emotion that we're having?

Luke: Um, and so it's, rarely does somebody Like, not all, you know, [00:06:00] we can definitely think things that will make us sad, but sometimes, and probably often times, something happens, we feel sad before we've even thought through what it is that's making us

Cameron: sad. Or what it is that we're feeling. We feel a sensation.

Cameron: We feel something. Right. And we feel it primarily in our, we're tired, we're lethargic, we're, you know, and it doesn't, it doesn't actually, it takes us a while to articulate how the body is expressing the actual emotion until we come to a point of saying, Oh, I'm sad today. Yep. I'm not fatigued, just fatigued.

Cameron: I'm just tired. I'm just tired. I'm just tired. Yep. You know, I've got sadness today or something. Have you read Bessel van der Kolk's book? The Body Keeps the

Luke: Score? No, it's been on my to read list for several years and I've not gotten to [00:07:00] it.

Cameron: Yeah, if you're out there and you're really interested in the topic of emotional health and in particular how, um, how your physical body is a, um, Is the soil, no relations, relationships with the soil, that your physical body, um, is the storing place of memory, emotions, feelings, and how the things that happen in your body are representative of the things that are happening.

Cameron: Currently to you or have happened in the past. Mm hmm. Like we have trauma responses Yeah, you

Luke: know when you certain days of the year that you might feel upset for a reason you don't cognitively recognize But your body recognizes as being the anniversary of [00:08:00] something. Yep.

Cameron: Yeah Or when you walk into a particular room and you get chills or you go into, um, you know, for a long time, I had a physical stress response in my body to a particularly like regularly scheduled meeting that I had to have where I would sit in the meeting.

Cameron: And like physically, like my core would physically shake almost like I was shivering, like I was cold and it took me a long time to recognize what was happening there that I, my, my body was having. Even though I wasn't necessarily stressed up here or anxious up here, but that my body was having a stress response to just being in this meeting again, even though it wasn't anything, it wasn't the same meeting.

Cameron: It wasn't the same meeting. Um, it wasn't the same [00:09:00] topics of conversation. It wasn't the same issues, but my body was like, I want to tell you that this is stressful. We've been stressed here before right we've been anxious here before listen to what I'm saying. Yeah, right So, yeah Bessel van der Kolk k o l k the body keeps the score Pretty much the gold standard of like The physical storing of trauma and emotions in the body Excellent

Luke: book.

Luke: Yeah, it's been very influential. I feel like in the last I don't know how old it is now, but yeah, it's been very influential across multiple fields so So yeah, we kind of talked about Emotions being closer to our bodies than potentially even our minds. Mm hmm. And then shared language around emotions talked about Chip Dodd's I didn't write down his emotions.

Luke: So even if I had my notes, I couldn't [00:10:00] remember them. Mm hmm his emotions that he kind of lists Mm hmm as kind of creating a shared language. Mm hmm, and then a way to kind of handle emotions And kind of just like process through them. It was kind of the topics that we kind of talked about. So what, what were the, are you pulling up chip Dodd's emotions,

Cameron: the eight feelings, eight feelings from voice of the heart, chip Dodd has lonely, angry, glad, fear, shame, guilt, hurt, and sad, and then kind of in the same, been a parallel tracks of the eight needs.

Cameron: Mm. To be seen. Mm-Hmm. To be soothed, to be safe, to be secure, to be significant. Mm-Hmm. To be competent. To be controlled. To be affirmed. There you go. Yeah. Um, so. [00:11:00] Yeah. So you felt like that it was a helpful conversation at least, right? Yeah,

Luke: absolutely. You know, I think anytime we can consolidate thinking into kind of helpful paradigms and kind of remind ourselves of what are good, what are like best practices and how to help people kind of work through those, um, and even help our, help my own self work through them.

Luke: Right. And just like, we're all. Dealing with our emotional health. Well, at least we should be dealing with our emotional health And we're trying to manage it somehow, you know

Cameron: What what do you think? Like what's your opinion on? Why in at least it's my perception that in recent years and I will say I would say I've recognized it more in the last eight to 10 years.

Cameron: Why [00:12:00] do you think there has been a resurgence of, or a larger focus on emotional health? Like by using these types of terms and understandings, understanding, you know, the, the, um, I don't know if it's the resurgence or maybe it's the, like. prominence now of trauma and trauma responses. And sometimes it, you know, we, uh, a little bit tongue in cheek to say things like, um, you know, triggering, right.

Cameron: Being triggered. Uh, although it does have actual like application in our lives, you literally that I was triggered in that meeting, right. And that trauma response in suit. Um, But like, but like, why? Why? Like, what is the new? Why is it happening now? And is that just my perception that there's been a resurgence of it in the last 8 to 10 [00:13:00] years?

Cameron: Is the timeline different than that? Or? What um

Luke: your experience? I think I'm gonna say something i'm gonna quote or i'm gonna talk about something that I don't know enough about but i'm gonna sound smart anyways, like part of me wonders if it has to do kind kind of a little bit with like Speech act theory kind of playing itself out in by that.

Luke: Maybe I don't actually understand speech act theory but this idea that we You know, you ever heard like Eskimos have like, I don't know, like a ridiculous amount of names for different types of snow? Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. Have you not? Not really. Okay, Eskimo. But I get the concept. Yeah, they have more in their language, native language, they have more names for snow than we do.

Luke: We're like, oh, it's snowing. Or it's flurrying and then that's about it. They've got like different types of snow. They're like wet like they have, you know We say oh, this is a [00:14:00] really wet snow or we're kind of got clunk But they've got very specific languages like words to describe that. Gotcha. Or um There was a joke in, uh, a Simpsons episode, where, like, Lisa's making something up on stage, but she talks about, oh, and my people have like a name for that thing that happens when you run into the person, and then you both try to stutter to go the other way to get out of each other's name, like, that's a thing that we all universally know.

Luke: We don't have a name for. When you have a name for a thing, you're able to more fully understand, experience, quantify, and express the thing. And so, as we've developed around, like, just a shared language to talk about these things, that means that we're Talk, we're able to talk about it more and it brings a greater awareness to it, even though the thing may have always [00:15:00] existed, if that makes sense, like you can, um, like PTSD, you know, um, back in, I think world war, I think in the world wars, um, And even before that, they would describe soldiers as having shell shock or, um, there's even older terms than that.

Luke: And they had a whole bunch of, like, derogatory things to say about soldiers who were experiencing that. It wasn't until they kind of, like, began to understand it as something more complex than that. Um, so, I think part of it is just that the more people research it, the more people publish and put stuff out there, the more people read.

Luke: The more people talk about it, the more people are able to identify and name what's happening, even though it's been happening. All along. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. I don't know if that answers the question. [00:16:00] Yeah. I

Cameron: just, I think it describes what has happened, but I don't think it answers why now.

Cameron: Yeah. I don't know. Like, was it just a cultural moment? Is there, is there something that happened in culture? That was like, is this coming out of like a, I mean, I suppose that if it was going to come out of like a post war type of culture that that would have happened probably after world war two, but then you have Vietnam certainly have people who like really any generation Um, as experienced a war or a conflict, there's been a significant amount of PTSD or those suffering from those symptoms afterwards.

Cameron: Um, and was it just now that we were ready to talk about it in any way? Are we, are we a more emotionally aware, um, culture now than we were then? Or I think

Luke: maybe some of those quite the questions. [00:17:00] Yeah, I think maybe we're kind of tired of old coping Like I think like I notice in myself um I think like a frustration with Um, like a frustration with how, like, Oh, like, just suck up, suck, suck it up and deal with it.

Luke: Like, that's kind of at least the attitude I feel like previous generations have had, and that seems to have led to a lot of generational dysfunction. Um, and there's a general desire, I think younger generations even than me, are like very fixated on authenticity. Yeah. And so like, we want what's real and we don't want to just kind of take, um, we don't wanna just pretend I guess, that everything's okay.

Luke: So I don't know. Yeah. And, and [00:18:00] maybe like, honestly, I just don't, maybe I'm not even qualified to even answer the question as to why we're,

Cameron: well, I think it's, you know, it's, I, I'm not, it can be, I think it's okay to. have conjecture about opinion about whether it is or what has happened. I don't know. Like, um, cause you know, you'll, I think I've experienced that some people will see it as an actually a negative thing that we're a more emotional culture now and we're, and they will say things like we, we didn't care about all that emotional stuff in our generation.

Cameron: We just pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps. We just went out and did it. Yeah. Or

Luke: they'll say we lived by. Um, certain values and traditions and philosophies and those held us up, not even, you know, in a way they're not

Cameron: wrong. Yeah. In a way they're not wrong. In a way they're not wrong. I think like, I do think that there is a, [00:19:00] there is a different emotional landscape among the generation now than there would have been.

Cameron: I have to like, I got to say like 60 or 70 years ago, if I want to hit the right timeline, cause we're getting older that there would have been like 60, 70, even 80 years ago is a different world that's in now. And there are different core values of culture and there are different, like orienting principles of culture that there are then now than there were.

Cameron: Then, and I, and I, and I don't necessarily think that we have, obviously some directions that we've moved as a culture have been positive, right? Um, but I think that the, that there's a, there is a general sense that morally and ethically. And if from a value based, um, perspective that we are in trouble, [00:20:00] yes, that we are like, we are in trouble.

Cameron: Yes. Um, and that's a theological, that would be a theological statement to us. It's like, we are moving at mock speed into wickedness. Um, In what I think is an escalate eschatological preparation for the coming of Jesus, right? You know, um, and that Um, and so what was the connection now is going to make until like emotional health coming up?

Cameron: Oh, it's just that, um, you know, I think that there is a, I think that the, that the tide is rising. On people's personal capacity to successfully process, cope with, and hide the generational emotionally traumatic [00:21:00] events that have shaped who we are. And so it forces for, for those who, for those who want to essentially escape the matrix and be even more.

Cameron: Moderately self aware about what's going on inside of me as I live in this culture in this world now Yeah, it requires that I be a little bit more curious as to why am I feeling like I'm feeling right? And how do I change how I'm feeling? Yeah

Luke: So, you know the way you said that makes me do I will offer maybe an answer as to why I think we're reaching a, I think we're reaching a place of like hyper individualism.

Luke: Like, we're pushing more and more, because like you hear, I hear people saying like, Oh, I just need to speak my truth. Or like, you know, when you talk about [00:22:00] kind of moral decay, all of that kind of stuff is like, well, all of that's been removed from traditions and things external and have been put into, what do you say about yourself?

Luke: Nobody can tell you about you. You can only tell yourself or tell the world about you and that's actually really soul crushing in a lot of ways To be entirely self defined as an existential like nightmare and And so by being in this hyper individualistic culture like more and more we're turning inward So I think that's part of it and then You mentioned that kind of like, not everybody sees all of this emotional health and psychobabble as positive.

Luke: They'd say, you know, oh, it's making us all into snowflakes. Yep. Um, which, I've had that conversation. Why, what would you say to that? What would you say to that, Cameron? If I came up to you and I said, Cameron, like, talking about emotional health and all [00:23:00] that stuff. Like, that's just making you into a snowflake.

Luke: Like, you just gotta, like, get over it.

Cameron: Um, I would say that even good things taken to extremes become bad things. And I think that talking about emotional health is no exception to that rule, that it can certainly be, it can certainly become like a paralyzing conversation where you, you really do get lost in the, um, pursuit of. Emotional is emotional.

Cameron: I would call it emotionalism. Yes. Um, almost idolatrous towards it. Um, and I understand what people think, say when they, when they. Talk about [00:24:00] like, well, you're just overly emotional and this psycho babble. And, um, what's interesting to me about it is that those, those types of comments usually come from people who would equate emotionalism with the emotions of sadness.

Cameron: Crying, um, very X, uh, emotions that are, are, are, are external and, and seem to be soft, but in the midst of like their description of. Wokeness and softness like that person is obviously very angry. Mm hmm. They are very disillusioned. Yeah, they are very Frustrated. Mm hmm. All of them [00:25:00] are emotions

Luke: Right, and they're just the emotions that you've labeled as being okay or okay

Cameron: or right?

Cameron: Yeah, like we we You know, one person will get chided for being in a like emotion, emotional and crying all the time by the person who, and the person who's saying it, it's just angry all the time. Yeah. Um, as if they're not emotional, I'm not emotional, I'm just angry. Okay. Um, I say that a lot actually, um,

Luke: we're not going to talk about

Cameron: it, but, well, I mean, because they're, I mean, literally that you're, you're almost always going to have an emotion that is more prominent in your life than others.

Cameron: And I was just talking to my counselor the other day who happens to be the guy that was running here. Yes. And, and. And he reminded me that my most prominent emotion in all of life, good and bad, is anger. [00:26:00] I operate on an ang like, from the emotion of anger. And my anger is also the source of my passion.

Cameron: It's also the source of my, like, the things that I'm really good at. and that are positive in life. It's the thing that drives me towards justice. It's the thing that drives me towards wanting to do a good job. It's the thing that drives me towards wanting to see people transformed through relationship with Jesus Christ because I'm angry.

Cameron: All right. And so, um, but of course, emotions also have a very, very negative side to it. Anger has a negative side. Um, but, um, so. So for someone to say, yeah, no, like, why are you so wrapped up in emotionalism and all of that? I would say it's short sighted. It ignores their own emotional response to the situation as it stands, but it also ignores or denies the reality [00:27:00] that God has created us as holistic beings.

Cameron: We've talked about a lot here that we are not just bodies. that move around like, you know, robots in the flesh. Um, we are not just souls. Yeah. Right. We are not just minds that we are created holistically, meaning that our mind, our body and our soul is, they are integrally linked with one another in a way that cannot be separated in this life.

Cameron: Um, and so to say, you know, you shouldn't be emotional is to say to a person. Like you shouldn't recognize that part of your humanity. There's parts of you that are not okay. Yep. There are parts of you that are not good. Yep. Um, and I don't think that that is. Neither the heart of God [00:28:00] or particularly, like, effective or helpful.

Luke: No, I don't think so either. Um, I think, like, the thing I would say to somebody who's kind of coming with that objection of, like, you know, Like, I do think that there is that extreme. Where, um, I was looking on my phone because I wanted to be able to attribute this to the right person. But, uh, Dr. Richard Schwartz, um, who was the developer of like internal family systems.

Luke: He wrote a leadership book, and I can't find the leadership book or remember the name of the leadership book. But he talks about empathy being a really strong and really good emotion, but done in excess a really dangerous emotion. Say that again? Empathy being a good emotion. But. It's a really dangerous emotion.

Luke: Yeah, and by that he means that like, okay well, if someone you're have Cameron you come in you're having a bad day and If I over [00:29:00] empathize with you now, you're having now I'm having a bad day and now the whole office is having a bad day, right? Cuz I was like, oh Cameron like how are you what's going and all of a sudden like we're all just having a bad day Now, I did the nice thing of validating your experience, but I also solidified, perhaps by over empathizing and over validating, that there's nothing you can do to have a better day.

Cameron: Yeah, it's codependency. Yeah. That's classic codependency.

Luke: Codependency, right. And so he, you know, warns of like, you know, yeah, we need to validate and like, yeah, maybe you're having a crummy day. The truth is, is you don't have to have the rest of your day be crummy. Mm hmm. Like holding onto that truth and calling people out of it.

Luke: But if we live in a world where you get to speak your own truth and no one gets to speak into you or call you out of it, and like you're the decider of your own fate and will, and all of that, then. Well, [00:30:00] no, I can't speak into your life and say, Oh, well, do you just have, you can try and have a better day.

Luke: I can't say that because what if that's not your truth, right? So that is where it does fall apart and becomes unhealthy. But I would say you and I have both. Explored our own emotional health and found significant benefit to it in leadership and in just life. Mm hmm. Yeah. Why do you feel like it's so essential to leadership?

Luke: This is probably the last question we have time for today, but, um, we're barely getting to the topic we said we were going to talk about, but.

Cameron: Well, I think there's a lot of reasons. I think the one that is. Most easily is that when we are not in tune with our own emotional health, um, or aware of our own emotional patterns as leaders.

Cameron: We end [00:31:00] up doing damage to the people that we lead. We end up hurting them. Um, not always intentionally, but, um, unintentionally. And we, um, we lead codependently. We actually lead in such a way that we do damage to ourselves because we're not, we're not, um, aware of our emotional, the emotional landscape of our, of our lives.

Cameron: We can become codependent on, if we were to use our context here, become codependent on our congregation's approval of us rather than on God's call. Oh, I did a

Luke: really good job this week because lots of people like my sermon, but if I don't get a lot of feedback or I get negative feedback, then maybe I should quit.

Cameron: Right. I didn't do a good job or I, you know, where that, [00:32:00] that, that, I mean, some of that is like, you're going to have a little bit of that naturally in all in, you know, whether if you're, even if you're super emotionally well balanced, right. Criticism. Um, but what happens then, just use that as an example, is it makes us call into question our deeper core values or our, our legitimacy as, or our, like our personhood, right?

Cameron: or whether or not God has truly called us. Like, Oh, maybe I'm not meant to be a pastor. Maybe God doesn't have a calling on my life, or it sends us into spirals of shame or, um, or it makes us really angry. And then we lash out at criticism when maybe that criticism is legitimate.

Luke: Yep. Or we're a terrible leader because we end up becoming like the, uh, preachers who Want to what is it tickle [00:33:00] the ears of the listeners?

Luke: Right, we're like we're afraid to say anything that somebody might react negatively to even if it is the word of the lord itching ears Itching ears. Yeah. Yeah, and so that now all of a sudden you're not a leader. You're a like you're a follower Yeah, you're a follower. Yeah, you follow of your flock.

Luke: Exactly. You're no longer shepherding

Cameron: Right. So, yeah, that would be the 30 second answer to that. Question. I think that's, uh, it, it, there's a lot of practicality that maybe in fact, why don't we call this part one and we'll call part two. Why is important? I'm going to talk from a church perspective because that's what I know.

Cameron: Uh, why is it important to be emotionally self aware as a leader? Oh, I

Luke: think, yeah. It does like you, we are, your emotions are impacting you whether you're acknowledging it or

Cameron: not. And they're impacting the people around

Luke: you. Yes. Yeah. I like, I've reflected a lot [00:34:00] on the phrase of like, you can only give what you have.

Luke: Like if you are angry and anxious and that's all you're going to be able to give to people. At the end of the day, you can't give what you do not possess. And so I think that's a really, really true statement I've found in life that like, I want to bring a, like, if I want to lead people, like, and the thing is, is that that plays out in our spiritual life too.

Luke: Like, we need to be, we need to be possessing Christ and be in Christ so that we can minister Christ to people. Mm hmm. Otherwise, I'm just doing it out of my flesh. And, and part of that is working with your emotions. with Jesus.

Cameron: Correct. Well, why don't you tune [00:35:00] in for part two, if you want to hear, or if you're interested in hearing the rest of this conversation about like why it is important and maybe some of the practical reasons.

Cameron: And I can, I can share some stories. Uh, I can share lots of stories, uh, about, uh, how emotional health has affected leadership and affects churches and stuff like that. So yeah.

Luke: And if you have questions about this topic, Let us know so

Cameron: we can answer them. Yes, send them into our text line 716 201 0507 or you can leave them, if you're watching this on YouTube, you can leave them in the comments there.

Cameron: Um, or, um, wherever you're listening, you know, we ask you to like this, uh, like our podcast, not like. Please like us, but no like press the like button and the share button Subscribe subscribe if you can that'd be great Thanks for [00:36:00] listening,