Reasons for Having Two Sunday Services

Why Two Services ep 59
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[00:00:00] Luke: We ready? Let's do it. Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke. I'm Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut Podcast, where we have uncut and honest conversations about faith, life, and ministry. Um, today on the Uncut Podcast, we're going to be talking about adding a second service to, uh, to our church specifically, but figured we would have kind of a conversation around, because it's kind of a big change.

[00:00:39] Luke: If you've got a church that's got one single service and you get to a point where you decide to split that service into two kind of, um, and add a different service, that's like a big change to a congregation. Um, and it was something, had you ever, you'd never led a church through,

[00:00:58] Cameron: you had, yeah, no, we've, the previous church service that we had two services and then, did you lead

[00:01:03] Luke: the transition?

[00:01:08] Cameron: I think so.

[00:01:10] Luke: Yeah. I

[00:01:10] Cameron: think

[00:01:10] Luke: I

[00:01:10] Cameron: did.

[00:01:11] Luke: Okay. Yeah. I did. Okay. So you've got some experience with it before. Some. Yeah. I've. Yeah. Great. been at a church, I've attended, I've been at churches that have multiple services, but I've never seen the transition done for either, or well, I've never seen it done. I should say you have, but you know, and you know, our unique context and stuff.

[00:01:33] Luke: And so, I don't know, we just thought we'd get on here and

[00:01:37] Cameron: This is kind of like in the, it's in the context of like, you call it like conversations on church growth or like the philosophy of church growth and the practicality of church growth and whatever. Yeah. Like, so we have, we have a sanctuary here at conduit that holds, I don't know if you call it comfortably or uncomfortably, but like 200.

[00:02:00] Cameron: 200 is like, ain't no one else coming in. Um, 150, 160 is pretty full. Yep. It's pretty, pretty full. Especially

[00:02:10] Luke: with pews. Cause we have pews in our, in our service. We have

[00:02:14] Cameron: about 40 seats of, Like chairs in the back and those are always full. Yep. So the whole thing is full. Yep. The whole sanctuary and the parking lot is full and the kind and the the kids ministry rooms are full.

[00:02:27] Cameron: Yep. Everything's full full one service on a Sunday morning. Um, and the energy is great.

[00:02:36] Luke: Yeah.

[00:02:37] Cameron: The feeling in the building is great. The um, the room is loud.

[00:02:46] Luke: Yep.

[00:02:47] Cameron: To see everyone. Yep. A lot of energy during preaching. Yep. A lot of engagement. It's great. Yep. All of it is great. And so. During,

[00:02:54] Luke: during Easter, I think one of my, which was, which was packed for us this year.

[00:02:59] Luke: More than.

[00:03:00] Cameron: Almost 300. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:01] Luke: Which is pretty good. Way more than we've had before. And I remember getting up to do it, do announcements and the hosting and welcome everybody there. And I could see some regular attenders had pulled up chairs in the center aisle to sit next to the pews so they could sit next to their family because they were spilling out of the pew.

[00:03:20] Cameron: Yep.

[00:03:20] Luke: So

[00:03:21] Cameron: it's kind of cool to see.

[00:03:22] Luke: Yeah, it was. Yeah.

[00:03:23] Cameron: Um, so then the question is as well, wouldn't you. like, okay, your church has grown. It's big. It's successful. Is that the, is that it?

[00:03:35] music: Right.

[00:03:35] Cameron: Like, what do you do at that point? Do you just say, all right, this is as big as we are.

[00:03:41] Luke: Yeah.

[00:03:41] Cameron: And we're not going to get any bigger.

[00:03:45] Cameron: Um, I think if you, I think if you ask my, my, my guesses is that if you asked just a random person that goes to church, say, would you, do you want your church to grow? Do you want your church to say the same size? Or do you want it to shrink? What do you think they would say?

[00:04:06] Luke: I would think most people would say that they want it to grow.

[00:04:11] Cameron: Correct. I agree. Because that's like, that is a, a marker of something. There's a temporary marker of spiritual health. Right. Yeah. And so then when we grow, then the question is, okay, well, what happens when we grow to capacity? Is growth over? Um, and so one of the reasons, one of the things that we, um, had been discussing for a long time is like, okay, we are pretty much grown to capacity in our building.

[00:04:45] Luke: It was actually one of the things I said to you might've been the, when we, when I interviewed with you, Yeah. Is, I said, are you thinking about, what are you thinking about the capacity of this church?

[00:04:58] music: And

[00:04:59] Luke: you were like, yep, that was almost three years ago. Yeah. We've had that first conversation with you about it.

[00:05:05] Cameron: We are admittedly behind on this. We could have, or should have. Probably done it a couple years ago. Yeah, but whatever here we are right and we are starting a second service And so the question is well, why why not? Just leave it the way it is.

[00:05:21] Luke: Yeah So we're gonna have a conversation around some common Topics question mostly questions.

[00:05:28] Luke: We have a lot of questions and statements that we're gonna kind of organize our discussion conversation around this about, and maybe it'll be helpful for people who want to look in and think about their church and their context. But then we're also doing it for very practical reasons of just like wanting to offer, uh, look for anyone who's in our congregation, who's going through this change with us and say like, how and why are we thinking about it the way we're thinking about it?

[00:05:54] Luke: Yep.

[00:05:55] Cameron: Yeah.

[00:05:55] Luke: So.

[00:05:57] Cameron: So. Okay. So why, why would we add another service? Well, um, I don't know if many people know this stat. This is a stat I just recently learned this week, Chautauqua County, where we live, where we're located, Chautauqua County, New York, Western New York. Um, what percentage of the population do you think goes to church on Sunday?

[00:06:18] Luke: Oh, that's an interesting question. Here in Chautauqua County,

[00:06:24] Luke: 40%?

[00:06:25] Cameron: 18%.

[00:06:26] Luke: Whoa.

[00:06:27] Cameron: Yeah, 18%. So, that means that there's, you know, 82 percent of the population in Chaco County, which is 40%. Uh, about 120, 000 people in the county. Um, so it own, you know, 82 percent of people don't go to church, right? They're not affiliated with the church. You don't go to church, you know, by for all intents and purposes, there'll be this, the assumption that they don't have a, you know, Is this like people who go to relationship Jesus.

[00:06:58] Luke: People who go like 18% go to church at least once a year. Like, well,

[00:07:03] Cameron: I don't know. It's a good question because there was two percentages. There was 18% that go to church regularly and there was a holiday percentage of 20%.

[00:07:10] Luke: Okay,

[00:07:11] Cameron: so but that's

[00:07:11] Luke: still not a big jump. It's not a

[00:07:12] Cameron: big jump. No.

[00:07:14] Luke: Okay.

[00:07:14] Cameron: So the reality is like, alright, if we see that the church is full.

[00:07:21] Cameron: And we make the assumption that the church is full because people are at the very least becoming more curious about their relationship with God, um, are being drawn into relationship with Jesus, you know?

[00:07:39] Luke: Cause we don't, we don't make assumptions. It's sometimes it's clear. At least I know we try and make it clear when we talk from the stage during our like hosting time, we try and make it clear that we know, understand, and expect that there are people who do not yet know Jesus in the congregation and that they're

[00:07:56] Cameron: welcome.

[00:07:57] Cameron: Of course. Right. Yes. Um, but if we were to ask someone the question, is it, what's the, what's the better thing more people hearing about Jesus or less people hearing about Jesus? Well, more, more people, more people hearing about Jesus. So if we, if we see that more people are being drawn in, like into the ministry of conduit, why wouldn't we want to make more space for more people to come and hear about Jesus?

[00:08:36] Cameron: More about the love of God to them. In Jesus. Yep. Um, and so the reason really the, the reason that we are starting a second service is not so that we can have a church that says, Hey, we have two services, or, Hey, we have this many people, or, Hey, like our ministry is this successful. The reason we are starting a second service is to make more space for more people.

[00:09:05] Cameron: To come in here about Jesus.

[00:09:08] Luke: Yep. That's period. That's why we do most things.

[00:09:13] Cameron: That's why we do most things. The centrality of Jesus here. Um, is what we are always aiming for. And like I've told people before, sometimes it's a really big, like, sometimes we hit the target. Sometimes we miss. Right. But the reality is, is like, that's what we are aiming for.

[00:09:26] Cameron: So. Yeah.

[00:09:28] Luke: Okay, so that's like the main driving reason is like, we want to see, we want to see more people get to know Jesus, help people get closer to Jesus. And if there's no more room here, if people cannot show up and be part of the community,

[00:09:42] music: they

[00:09:42] Luke: can't do that. So make more room. But Cameron, what about the fact that like, you know, I'm not going to be able to know everyone.

[00:09:51] Luke: Right. If I'm gonna come in on a Sunday morning, there's gonna be two services. I'm not gonna see some people Yeah. At different services. I'm not gonna know everyone who comes to my church.

[00:10:00] Cameron: Correct.

[00:10:00] Luke: What would you say to that conversation? ,

[00:10:03] Cameron: I would say correct. You're not , you're not, you're not gonna know everyone that comes to the church.

[00:10:08] Cameron: Okay. Um, and I would say like, in two, two different ways. Like, and not to be snarky about it or anything like that, or sarcastic about it, but number one. Is I, I'm, I'm the lead pastor here. There are like, it's very difficult for me to know everyone. Like I, there are people who I'm like, I think I know their name.

[00:10:36] Cameron: Just the amount of people that there is. Right. And I say this, and I'm just honest about it from the stage. Like if I call you buddy, I don't know your name.

[00:10:43] Luke: Yep. I have swapped people's names. I have like, uh, yeah, I wish I, I wish I just wish I wish we had a magic power as pastors to just make it so much easier, but it's not,

[00:10:58] Cameron: no, it's not.

[00:10:59] Cameron: Um, and so. The reality is is that you don't know everyone's name now You don't you and you probably didn't know everyone's name when the church was 50 people Smaller than it even is now just out of like the the amount of names that a normal person can keep in their head And, and so it doesn't really feel for me to, to be the actual issue, like not knowing everyone's name, um, because you don't know everyone's name now and you're okay with it.

[00:11:31] Luke: Right.

[00:11:32] Cameron: You know, um, and, and to take that, to follow that rabbit hole even a little deeper, um, you would, to make that argument, you would then have to make the argument that knowing everyone's name in church is the goal.

[00:11:49] Luke: Yep.

[00:11:50] Cameron: That's the goal. Yeah. The goal is for me to come to a place on Sunday to know everyone's name or at least one of the goals.

[00:11:57] Cameron: Um, and, and that's not the goal. I understand. Listen, I, from an emotional place, I understand and, and all other things being equal, I want to know everyone's name. I want to have a deep sense of community. I want to know everyone that I worship with, but the reality is I don't and I can't. Um, so. So, so I get it.

[00:12:22] Cameron: I'm not like saying that it's an, it's a unreasonable ask.

[00:12:27] Luke: Yeah. Well, so like, here's a story I can share from the previous church that I was at that doesn't exist anymore. Um, but it was a small church plant in the city of Chicago. Our biggest service we ever had was maybe like 40 people. That was like opening weekend or something like that.

[00:12:46] Luke: We, our numbers fluctuated from like 15 people to like 30 people. We could not get past like that number 40. And I, you know, so small church, right? And I was there for a number of years, and, you know, we're a very dedicated, beautiful community. Love everyone who was a part of that church. It was really special.

[00:13:09] Luke: And we were having, I think it was a friend's giving or a Christmas party. I can't remember which. And I remember two individuals who had been part of our church for like two years, both, like they were very involved in the church, like not people who you didn't see ever. Came in and met each other for the first time.

[00:13:30] Luke: Mm-Hmm. at like this Friendsgiving. And I was like, what? , like Yeah. How have you guys been going to the same church?

[00:13:38] Cameron: Yeah. Mm-Hmm. .

[00:13:40] Luke: We are not big.

[00:13:41] Cameron: Yeah.

[00:13:41] Luke: And you guys haven't like, they're like, oh, I think I've seen you. They've just never introduced themselves. Never had a conversation. Mm-Hmm. they tended to just oscillate on different weeks of not being there.

[00:13:52] Luke: Mm-Hmm. . And they just didn't know each other.

[00:13:54] Cameron: Yep. Crazy,

[00:13:56] Luke: crazy.

[00:13:56] Cameron: Yeah. Mm-Hmm. .

[00:13:57] Luke: And that happened at that church there. You know, I've seen that same thing happen here watched it happen like oh they go to our church or you know It it happens now.

[00:14:10] Cameron: Yeah, I would say that like the number one goal is Not that we know everyone's name.

[00:14:17] Cameron: The number one goal is that everyone knows the name of Jesus Yeah. So while we're concerned about names, let's ask the question, how do we make space for more people to know the name of Jesus? Right.

[00:14:31] Luke: And I do think, I do think it's important that like, you know, some people's names that you have a sense of community, right?

[00:14:38] Luke: That's why we're, we talk a lot about small groups and building and I'm, well, at least I am talking a lot about small groups and I know you do too, but like, we want to get people connected into those smaller units because like, yeah, it's unreasonable for you to know. 150 plus 200 people's names, um, but like maybe 10 or 15 in your small group and like create that greater sense of community and growth there.

[00:15:03] Luke: Like, it's not that we don't want you to know, know anyone's name, like that's not a good situation either.

[00:15:08] Cameron: No. Yeah. We want. That we, I mean, knowing someone's name is like the first step to actually genuine connection with them. So of course we want that.

[00:15:16] Luke: Yeah. We don't want to create a church where no one knows anyone's name.

[00:15:19] Luke: Right. No, that's not what we're trying to

[00:15:21] Cameron: create. Yeah. It's that balance. Yeah. So is it, is this, is this whole thing just about the numbers? No. Yes.

[00:15:29] Luke: No. Yes. Yes. No. Um, are

[00:15:31] Cameron: we just

[00:15:35] Cameron: trying to pad our numbers? Nope. In fact, I think you and I have talked about going back to the small group conversation. I would almost like, in order to put our right priorities in the right place in terms of discipleship and growth and everything like that, I'm almost more like, I'm going to stop counting like Sunday attendance and start counting small group attendance.

[00:16:01] Cameron: Right. Make that the metric right for how healthy we are. Um, and so in that way, like, do numbers matter? Well, no, they don't. They don't matter. I don't care about the numbers, but at the same time I do care about the numbers because every number is a person. Right. Every number is a person. Every person has a story.

[00:16:26] Cameron: Um, um, every person is created in the image and likeness of God. Um, every person is made for relationship with God. Every person has a heart that needs transformed by Jesus. And so I will count the people because people are important to God and they're, so they're important to us. So is it about the numbers?

[00:16:49] Cameron: Well no. It's But it's also not, not right about the numbers, right? Um, alright. Is one service going to be better than the other service? We're gonna, are we gonna be, are we gonna have services that compete with one another, compete with one another for how they're gonna be better?

[00:17:12] Luke: Man, we kind of talked long and hard about like this dynamic in the way that we kind of approached, um.

[00:17:21] Luke: even how we're doing two services in the way we kind of thought about it. Because we were thinking like, well, let's just, because we were like, well, do they need to be the same? Right? Does each service need to look the same? And we were kind of on that track or that trail a little bit of like thinking, okay, we should make them as similar as possible.

[00:17:45] Luke: But I think we were both sensing that like, That was probably too big of a burden for our size and scale

[00:17:55] Cameron: on our volunteers,

[00:17:55] Luke: our volunteers. And it was going to like, it was going to lead to one service feeling like we were kind of trying to make it into something. It wasn't right. So we actually tried to differentiate the services, make them a little bit different.

[00:18:11] Luke: Um, but not in any way, try and say that one is better than the other. Um,

[00:18:17] Cameron: Nope. They're just different. Yep. Yeah. So our service is going to be downstairs in the multi purpose room. Right.

[00:18:25] Luke: First early service. The

[00:18:26] Cameron: early service. The 9am service is going to be like, there's going to be. Tables in the back and, um, going to have, uh, uh, lower seating capacity that service will, um, were hopeful that the, kind of the smaller room, smaller environment, and then like, Table setting fellowship area type of thing will provide an opportunity for families who decide to come to have a little bit more comfortable environment where they can sit with their kids at a table and do coloring pages and still worship and still hear a message and still pray together and, uh, all of that.

[00:19:15] Cameron: And The preaching is going to be, it's going to be the same sermon,

[00:19:18] Luke: same sermon, same

[00:19:19] Cameron: sermon, same preacher. Yep. It's going to be the same worship team. Yep. Um, it might be, you know, it might have one, you know, Or two less elements on the stage down here than we would upstairs just because of acoustics and sound and all of that space.

[00:19:34] Cameron: And so is it going to, are they going to be, are they going to be different? Yeah, they're going to be different. Are there going to be, is it a lot of it going to be the same? Yes, it's going to be the same because we, my, my intent is to bring the same heart for the people. The same leadership style, the same preaching, the same love for the people, the same desire to hunger after God and his word.

[00:20:03] Cameron: And, um, and so I, Um, but then the, the service that we have upstairs, the later service is going to be in a big, beautiful sanctuary with a full, full worship team. Same sermon. Once again, um, conduit kids is going to be offered during that service. So that. Um, you know, you, that your, your kids will have a purpose built environment for them,

[00:20:34] Luke: lessons and teaching.

[00:20:36] Cameron: Right. And so, um, families, you know, like we, we, I, I hope I really, I, I really hope that families go to that service so that kids can

[00:20:50] Luke: get age appropriate discipleship,

[00:20:52] Cameron: correct, you know, or, or that, or that families who attend together. The, the first service then allow their kids to experience conduit kids and then they choose to serve during the second service.

[00:21:09] Cameron: So they're serving either in kind of kids or hospitality or safety team or parking or, um, in some other way, shape or form. really is kind of one of the, one of the reasons that we did that, the way that we're doing it, not having kind of kids in both services. Yeah.

[00:21:26] Luke: Well, cause like we wanted to give, we recognize that like, it's, um, we wanted to give our volunteers a more sustainable way of doing ministry because like we hear from a lot of people that they lament that like they, when they serve, they feel very disconnected from community.

[00:21:43] Luke: They didn't get to participate in the adult worship or the teaching. Yeah. And so this provides an opportunity for people to like, cause like, uh, sometimes on a Sunday morning, you come into church, you're feeling rushed and you're serving that morning, come down to huddle, we pray and then you go off and you go serve the kids and then you kind of leave by the time all the kids are gone, all the other adults are gone and you just kind of leave and you feel very disconnected.

[00:22:08] Luke: Maybe you had fun with the kids. I know my wife has a blast when she serves in CK with the kids. Um, but what if you had a different rhythm for that? You could, you know, you could come in, participate in a full service, hear the sermon, participate in worship in the community, be filled up in a sense, and then come and serve out of that in the second service, feeling really connected and able to bless the kids with that.

[00:22:32] music: Yeah.

[00:22:33] Luke: I think that's, you know, that's one of the many reasons we kind of thought about this. It's our vision and hope for that. Yeah.

[00:22:39] Cameron: So I don't think that one service is going to be better than another. I think it's just going to be like what service fits. Maybe your family better and then what serve and then and how and then how does that inform your passion to serve other people in the church?

[00:23:00] Luke: What would you say Cameron to though for someone who's like, Oh, like I've got two services. Maybe I'm going to go to the one service and this is actually an opportunity for me to not serve anymore actually.

[00:23:12] Cameron: Yeah, I would say, um, that. We conduit is not a product to be consumed. Um, church in general is not a product to be consumed and it would concern me that that heart attitude would concern me.

[00:23:36] Cameron: Um, because I think what it, what it shows is that we have divorced or separated in our own mind or in our own heart, the act of serving as an act of worship, we have said that serving is separate from worship. It's not something it's, it's, it's just flat out volunteering. Like I would volunteer at, you know, whatever.

[00:24:05] Luke: I feel like I have to volunteer at the service that I go to because I take part of it. It's like my way for paying for it or something.

[00:24:12] Cameron: Right. But I think that serving. Um, serving in outreach, serving on a ministry team, serving conduit kids or hospitality or safety or parking or, you know, whatever. So I think serving is a found both foundational and formational aspect of worship serving changes us serving.

[00:24:35] Cameron: Um, forms us more into the image and likeness of Jesus. When Jesus had one night left to live, the thing that he chose to do was humble himself in service. Of those, um, that were closest to him, his family. Right. And John chapter 13, he washed their feet in the midst of knowing this is the last, this is my last night on earth.

[00:25:00] Cameron: What should I do? I will serve. Right. And so I think it is really short sighted to say, well, I'm so glad we have an early service because now I can just get my check box of. I can check my church box off and then I'm free for the rest of the day to do whatever I want. And when I'm, when I, as your pastor, I would encourage you to say to before you just choose to do that, that you would ask the Lord, Lord, how would you have me serve as an act of worship?

[00:25:35] Cameron: My church, my community, um, and, and, and allow him to set your priorities for serving and worship rather than just being like taking it as a matter of convenience that now you get to be done earlier. Yeah.

[00:25:54] Luke: Yeah. And I think I, you know, I think we. We've both preached on Sabbath, and we both preach on, like, we try and exercise healthy boundaries a lot here.

[00:26:05] Luke: I don't think we're in the vein of trying to ask people to burn themselves out. I feel like we very much actively work against that.

[00:26:16] Cameron: Yeah, well, and I think this shows that we're Actually, like desiring to offer people who serve a worshipful experience in one service so that, like you said, they, they serve out of the overflow of their heart.

[00:26:33] Luke: Right.

[00:26:34] Cameron: Right. Um,

[00:26:38] Luke: So Cameron, this seems all really complicated doing two services, fixing up the space down here at the bottom, like. It's going to make your day longer. Um, all of that. Why aren't we just doing a building drive? Why are we not just making a bigger sanctuary cam? Like that's the easier thing we would have one service at feel full.

[00:27:02] Luke: We'd have. Brand new, you know, all that stuff and feel all fancy and shiny. Like, why are we not just building a bigger sanctuary? Like every other church?

[00:27:11] Cameron: Yeah. Great question. Um, and I would say like, what could be seen as a merely like a financial question is really, I think, a ministry philosophy question or ministry philosophy answer.

[00:27:27] Cameron: Cause the, the basic answer to that is the amount of money. That we would have to spend Yeah. To expand our sanctuary. Right. To match the architecture to, because it's,

[00:27:42] Luke: right. 'cause it's not just the sanctuary, right? It's the

[00:27:44] Cameron: parking lot. It's

[00:27:45] Luke: the parking lot. Which,

[00:27:46] Cameron: which is, it's the number of bathrooms, number of bathrooms.

[00:27:49] Cameron: Um, it's the number of spaces for kids. Right? '

[00:27:53] Luke: cause if more people are coming into the sanctuary, we need more space for kids. Yes.

[00:27:57] Cameron: So, it's not, it's, I mean, you'd be talking about a whole building expansion, and

[00:28:05] Luke: What would, like, just out of curiosity, like, I know, I know we've talked about it, but what would be, like, the conservative number estimate for, like, a total property renovation like that here?

[00:28:14] Cameron: Oh, you'd be multi millions. Multi millions. Multi millions. Yeah. Yeah, I mean. Millions. Without naming, like, there's, there have been churches in the area, in the county, in the last decade. Who have put on major had done major, major additions, new worship centers and classrooms and stuff like that. And you're talking like the five to 7 million range.

[00:28:38] Cameron: Um, now, um, I'm not saying that God doesn't provide stuff like that. Right. Totally does. What I'm saying is that, um, from a philosophical standpoint, like I want to spend my money. I want to spend ministry money on, um, on, on like people and ministry, not bricks and mortar. Like if I, if I've got a million dollars to spend, right.

[00:29:12] Cameron: I don't want to spend it on new pews and windows. And it's like, I want to leverage that money for ministry and for like the benefit of people. Um, and the reality is, is like, you could do a capital campaign, you could take on, um, um, a mortgage, a loan, a construction loan or whatever. But then what happens is, um, you become slave to that debt.

[00:29:42] Cameron: And now you begin to find yourself doing things in ministry that ensure that you can continue to pay off that debt.

[00:29:52] music: Yep.

[00:29:53] Cameron: Cause it's going to come due every single month. So you're not, you know, you're not maybe preaching the word as faithfully because you don't want to tick people off because if they leave, then that's not, that's income lost or whatever, uh, or tithe tithes and offerings lost.

[00:30:08] Cameron: And it becomes this kind of albatross that you need to maintain.

[00:30:14] Luke: Yep.

[00:30:15] Cameron: And then there's just, then there is just the building maintenance and the upkeep.

[00:30:19] Luke: Yeah. It's a bigger building. It needs cleaned more. It needs, yeah, all of that. And we've, we, we even talked about the fact that that would impact, like that would make more choicing choices around staffing, right?

[00:30:32] Luke: Like it's a choice between, between paying the mortgage or having someone else on staff,

[00:30:39] Cameron: a children's ministry pastor or a youth pastor or something like that. Like, no, I'd rather pay. To have more ministry capacity than I would seating capacity. Um, and also like we live in Chautauqua County, New York.

[00:30:56] Cameron: This is not a mega church area.

[00:30:57] Luke: No,

[00:30:58] Cameron: there will never be a mega church. It's Chautauqua County because it's not representative of the culture and the context here. Um, And, and I don't particularly believe that for my gifting and like my personality and the way that like I feel called to do ministry that I really want to lead in a mega church type of capacity where you're just stacking things taller.

[00:31:27] Luke: Right.

[00:31:27] Cameron: Um, and so, you know, um, and so some people might as well, what if the church, like, what if you have two services and those both fill up?

[00:31:39] Cameron: Well, I mean, I mean, we'll cross that bridge when we get there, but I tell you what, I'm not going to do, I'm not going to build a bigger building. I might move to a different building, one that, you know, better suits our needs, but, uh, you're never going to see cranes in this parking lot lifting huge new trusses or anything like that.

[00:32:02] Cameron: Um, because not, it's like one, it's out of touch with the neighborhood, you know? And two, um, I would rather say, okay, why don't we take 50, 80, a hundred people from our current congregation? And why don't we say, why don't we go plant a church in an area that's underserved in ministry?

[00:32:21] music: Yep. Um,

[00:32:23] Cameron: and, and expand, if we're going to expand or grow ministry to do it in that way, rather than just like building something bigger, shinier, and fancier that moth and rust destroy and thieves break in and steal.

[00:32:39] Luke: And, you know, I, I don't know if you ever finished listening to that one podcast, but listen to that podcast about executive pastor at this large, large, large church. Um, it was one of those churches that built really tall, right? And at the end of the podcast, he's just lamenting. And he's like, if I could say one thing to other churches is don't do what we did.

[00:33:03] Luke: Don't saddle yourself with all of this massive infrastructure in massive property. Because one of their biggest problems now is what do they do with all this property? Because they were huge, they shrunk down for a number of reasons, and now they have this property that is outsized what they actually do and what they actually serve with.

[00:33:23] Luke: And they're like, what do we do now? And that's not just a recent trend. That was like a pre COVID trend. I went to a, um, like a church growth, church planting conference, and every single like mega past, mega church pastor that I, like, that came up and spoke, or I saw in a breakout session was trying to find ways to get their big church be smaller.

[00:33:52] Cameron: Yep.

[00:33:53] Luke: And I think that needs to be a little bit of a wake up call for us who are maybe on the other side of that spectrum who think that grass is greener on, at a bigger size

[00:34:03] music: and

[00:34:03] Luke: realize that maybe they are perhaps warning us that maybe going tall, going big as possible in that way is not the thing.

[00:34:12] Luke: Maybe not. Maybe it's not the thing. It's certainly not the

[00:34:15] Cameron: vibe. Yeah, not here.

[00:34:16] Luke: Not the vibe. Not the vibe. What if someone just says Cameron a nine o'clock service an 11 o'clock service? I don't like those times I really really like my 10 o'clock service.

[00:34:28] Cameron: You can come at 10 o'clock if you want Like come at 10 o'clock and catch the you know The end of the first service in the beginning of the, of the second, like, I don't know what to tell you.

[00:34:40] Cameron: Like I can do it at eight 30 and 10 30 if you want, but it sounds to me like, I mean, forgive your pastor for offending. No, I don't forgive your like. You just want to be offended by you want something to be you're disagreeable about that you have a disagreeable heart get over it It's like just

[00:35:02] Luke: yeah What about this is kind of really unique to the way that we kind of started talking about The early service or two services was kind of the way we phrased it early on and so I think we should talk about this, uh, just to bring any clarity to any miscommunication or overcommunication at the beginning.

[00:35:23] Luke: But what if I don't have kids? Do I have to have kids or do I have to be serving in order to go to this early service?

[00:35:32] Cameron: Right. Because originally we were Considering calling it the family service family and ministry service was the

[00:35:38] Luke: way we Well, because I was the first one to kind of talk about it. I think you were gone from that family meeting You were sick.

[00:35:44] Luke: Yeah, so I talked about it and the language I chose around it was family and ministry service and the reason I did that was to Accurately describe the way it was supposed to function and will function and differentiate it A little bit. Instead of just calling it second service, calling it family ministry service.

[00:36:06] Luke: And I said at that meeting, I did say that doesn't mean you have to have kids or that you have to be serving in ministry in order to attend this service. It just simply means that the service is going to be functioning towards those things a little bit different than the other one. Yeah. But regardless of how clear or unclear I may have communicated that, simply attaching that name has created Confusion.

[00:36:34] Luke: Since then.

[00:36:35] Cameron: Yes. Yeah. And, uh, no, you can come to whatever service best fits your schedule, whether you're serving on that day or not serving on that day, or you have family or don't have family or whatever. Um, yeah, the purpose again, we've talked a little bit more about this is that if you do have, if you are say regularly serving in conduit kids, but you don't want to miss

[00:37:00] Luke: Or do you want to serve it?

[00:37:01] Luke: You've never served in conduit kids, but you've always kind of like felt bad about missing service.

[00:37:06] Cameron: Great point. Great point there is that now there's a service for those of you who are in ministry, right? Right. That you can still come to. Um, and if you have, it's the same thing with family. Well, you have kids,

[00:37:21] Luke: right?

[00:37:21] Cameron: All right. You can bring the kids and that, that service is going to be. Um, I mean, that service is going to be a little bit more purposefully tailored to families who have little kids and are keeping them in their service. We'll have tables in the back,

[00:37:40] Luke: drawing things,

[00:37:41] Cameron: like. Right. And so that's why we call it kind of like the family services.

[00:37:45] Cameron: Bring your family. It's okay. The kids are there. Right. Don't get worried or upset about them being a little bit louder or being a little bit more of a rambunctious service.

[00:37:53] Luke: Well, it's a really positive way to communicate. Instead of saying it's, it's the no seat, it's the no conduit kids service, or it's the no children's ministry service.

[00:38:02] Luke: That's a really negative way to talk about it. Instead of saying, well, let's celebrate the fact that the family gets to worship all together. Right. And all of that, all the messiness and goodness that that brings.

[00:38:12] Cameron: Yes. So. That's really what the whole, that whole like moniker came from. But no, if you don't have kids, you can still come to the 9am.

[00:38:21] Cameron: If you're not serving in ministry that day, you can still come to the 9am. Um, my hope is, is if you come to the 9am, you'll be like, well, yeah, Hey, I got to worship with my family. Now I'm going to go serve my family today. Um, and that that would be, you know, that would be the heart that the Lord develops in you if it's not, you know, if you're not there yet.

[00:38:41] Cameron: Um, because. You know, like I said, serving is formational as much as it is foundational to the Christian faith.

[00:38:47] Luke: Yeah. Yeah. So those are some of the kind of the big questions, topics, and things that we kind of are hearing and things that we've been thinking through and talking through as we're doing this final service or the second service.

[00:39:01] Luke: But I think it deserves mentioning one more time, going back to that first question. Why are we here? Why in the world we do two services and not just say, the Lord has blessed us. We have one service and just be happy with that.

[00:39:20] Cameron: Because this is an experiment to see if the Lord wants to keep blessing us.

[00:39:24] Cameron: It's an experiment to see like, okay, the Lord has created the increase. Is he done? Is he done with the increase? And if you look at the number of people, 82 percent in shock County that don't know Jesus are not connected with the church. My guess is the Lord's not, okay. Um, satisfied with 18 percent that there is, there are more people that, that there are more people to come to know Jesus.

[00:39:53] Cameron: And so that's why we're doing it is to make more space for more people to come to know Jesus.

[00:39:59] Luke: You know, what just came to my mind as we were, as you were just talking was a message you gave, I think last year or maybe it was two years ago. It was one of our tent services outside. You gave a message on the passage where Jesus is in the house and the friends get up on the roof.

[00:40:18] Luke: Yes. Pull the thatching off the roof. They lower their friend, their paralyzed friend down into the middle of this meeting with Jesus because they're like, we got to get him close to Jesus. And they were willing to stretch the limits of that building. Yeah. In order to get him just physically, proximately closer to

[00:40:36] Cameron: Jesus.

[00:40:40] Cameron: Is that not the parable? Do I have to preach that? Yeah, right. You know what I mean? Like we

[00:40:45] Luke: want to get people closer to Jesus. We're gonna stretch the limits of this building. Yep. We'll take a part of the ceiling out if we need to yep to get people here

[00:40:54] Cameron: Exactly. I'll blow the roof off this place if it means one more person closer to Jesus.

[00:40:59] Cameron: Yep. Mm hmm We hope like that Those some of that, some of that conversation is helpful for you. Uh, if you've been having some questions, just want more information about the, you know, the changes that are coming and they're in the, and it will change. Like we're not going to, well, I'm not trying to say that it's going to be the same, right?

[00:41:17] Cameron: It is going to be different than what we're experiencing now, but different doesn't mean to need to mean worse. And we always can endure change for the

[00:41:33] Luke: right reasons, for a good why,

[00:41:35] Cameron: for a good why.

[00:41:37] Luke: So,

[00:41:38] Cameron: um, if you have any questions, more questions, maybe you have a question that we didn't answer. Maybe you have a philosophical or methodological question.

[00:41:45] Cameron: Maybe you don't go to conduit at all. And you've never even heard of conduit ministries, but you watch this podcast or listening, you're thinking about like, well, what, what, I don't get it. Or. I do get it. But here's the question that I have. Yeah, send it over. Um, like I said, this is much, this is as much for us, uh, philosophical and methodological ministry question as it is like a informational, um, bit of information for those who go to conflict.

[00:42:12] Luke: Cause there's a reason that we're not just saying, uh, more people should go online.

[00:42:17] Cameron: All right,

[00:42:17] Luke: because we could solve that problem that way,

[00:42:19] Cameron: but

[00:42:20] Luke: we're choosing not to right and we talked about that in other episodes Yeah,

[00:42:23] Cameron: and don't even get me started on more people online.

[00:42:25] Luke: I know you were getting into an argument on fate on Instagram yesterday I almost commented on it

[00:42:35] Cameron: So anyway, thanks for listening appreciate your appreciate your Your presence here. Yeah. Um, leave us a question, a comment, um, like this episode, wherever you're listening, share it with your friends, subscribe to it. If you're not,

[00:42:50] Luke: if you're listening, listening to this audio podcast, leave us a review. That would be yes,

[00:42:56] Cameron: we'd really appreciate you could

[00:42:57] Luke: be our first review.

[00:42:59] Cameron: Really? We have zero reviews

[00:43:01] Luke: last. I looked. I don't think we have any. Oh, wow. Um, I

[00:43:04] Cameron: don't know what to make of

[00:43:05] Luke: that I think you just haven't talked

[00:43:07] Cameron: about it. That's true. Yeah. Okay. Yeah review us, please Um, and our text line is seven one six two zero one zero five zero seven Thanks for listening