Loving Jesus but Hating the Church: Is the Church Important or Necessary?
Welcome to the uncut podcast. I'm pastor Luke. I'm pastor Cameron. And this is the uncut podcast where we have honest uncut conversations about faith, life, life, and ministry. So, Cam, we're sitting down on a beautiful Monday.
Luke:Yep.
Cameron:You're trying to get a Crown Street, sponsorship?
Luke:Yep.
Cameron:Nick and Mikaela, if you're watching.
Luke:My friends.
Cameron:Jake Paul, if you're watching. I'm trying to get a Prime
Luke:sponsorship. Yep.
Cameron:I I don't I think one is probably more likely than others.
Luke:So You
Cameron:know, I was just thinking as you were doing the intro Mhmm. Because I know that we were recording all that stuff that we just
Luke:We we were.
Cameron:That were that is gonna probably fall on the edit room floor.
Luke:I was just gonna chop it off. Yeah.
Cameron:It'd be funny to do a couple. You could do you could do a here's here's some of the issue is that even though we've been doing this for over a year now, we got 60 some episodes. Mhmm. It still is a different conversation when we after we do the intro than it is before.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:I don't know how to get over that.
Luke:I mean, maybe we just don't do the intro one day. Like and we can do it at the end, and then then we can cut it and put it at the end. I don't know if that bugs anybody that makes it the uncut pot makes it the cut pot
Cameron:of the podcast.
Luke:But, but
Cameron:I don't know. Like, maybe maybe it'd be wise to, like, just show people the conversation that we have even before we have the conversation. Maybe. So maybe, I don't know. Maybe you'll see what we had, the conversation that we had about some future episodes that we want to do.
Luke:And maybe we'll, like maybe I'll addend it at the end of this episode. You can, like, skip forward into chapters and, like
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:Click and you can listen to us talk about future episode plans and stuff.
Cameron:Yeah. Right. Yeah. We could do that. Yeah.
Cameron:Oh. To the uncut podcast. Here's a cut of the uncut podcast. So, yeah, I saw I mean, suffice it to say we have some, we have some episode and really series ideas Mhmm. That we like and that we think would bear some fruit.
Cameron:And so you can look toward you can look forward or towards those. Maybe even, you can help us with, with some of them. If you we were talking about the possibility of doing a series of episodes on, like, some, well, on on, like, some of our favorite bible stories. Yep. But also maybe some of our future bible stories that aren't the most classically well known.
Cameron:Right. Bible stories like David and Goliath and Noah's Ark and stuff like that.
Luke:Like the deep cuts of the Bible.
Cameron:Right. Yes. And so, and then, and then just kind of like talking about some of the ways that they have, spoken to our own spirituality Mhmm. And walk with the lord and maybe how they can speak to yours. So if you have, like, a favorite bible story, could be a story from the book of acts or one of the gospels even, or most of the story stories are in the old testament.
Luke:Yeah. A
Cameron:story that you really like, maybe that not everyone talks about all the time, whatever, or maybe one that is well known. You'd like for us to talk about it to just kinda like see what we can pull
Luke:out of it Yeah.
Cameron:And create some application for
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Do that. Send us send in that recommendation. Drop it in the comments, or you can text it to our text line, 716-201-0507.
Luke:So Cool. Yeah. I I think that'll be an exciting one to do to to kind of because I don't, you know, it it it I don't think this is true so much in our church, but in a lot of churches from the pulpit mostly gets preached didactic texts. I think we try and sprinkle in narrative Mhmm. A fair amount Yep.
Luke:Particularly because we're in the gospel and a lot of the gospels Yep. Are narrative. But a lot of times, really, all we hear in a lot of churches is just didactic Mhmm. Like letters, Pauls. We hear Paul preached all the time
Cameron:Yep.
Luke:Which is is great. We're preaching Paul. We've preached 2 of his books almost in a row. So you know? And we,
Cameron:maybe not everyone understands, but we do try to do a somewhat healthy balance. And I don't wanna say it's a perfect balance because I wanna be in the gospels. I wanna be around the life of Jesus. Mhmm. But we try to make sure that we're hitting old testament texts in our preaching.
Cameron:Yep. We're doing 2 two series. Yep. This coming summer and fall ish Mhmm. On, in old testament texts.
Cameron:1 on on the life of joy life of Josiah Yep. 1 in the life of Elijah. Mhmm. Those will be 2 separate series. So I'm looking forward to those.
Cameron:I think you're gonna preach primarily one of
Luke:I think, yeah, one of those. I think one of those
Cameron:is you think you get all of them. Yeah. Mhmm. So, but, yeah. So, send me your recommendations if you have them.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Yeah. I got some stories in the old testament that I really love. Mhmm. And some that I have a lot of questions on. Me too.
Cameron:You know, I have a lot of I I do have a lot of questions around, you know, a lot of a lot of the stories in Joshua. Mhmm. A lot of the stories in Judges. Yep. And so, you know, it it'd be interesting to talk about those and just come and be mutually reflect on them.
Cameron:Yeah. Mhmm.
Luke:Yeah. I was I I remember I tried a while ago to do my devotions out of Genesis. I was like, I'll just start in Genesis.
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:And I couldn't do it. At least not for my devotions. It and it was not that I it was just that I was reading it and I would just have more questions. And I was just like, I just wanna read a commentary along with my bible. And so it wasn't it wasn't a very devotional experience for me.
Luke:I was coming away with a lot of, like, textual, historical, interpretive questions more than actually just sitting in the text. So I had to change it back up, go somewhere else. So
Cameron:What do you think about the dynamic of, like, I I hear a lot of pastors say that you shouldn't do your devotions, personal devotions in the same texts that you're preparing to preach?
Luke:I think there's some wisdom in it, but I also think that there's a little bit of a silly dichotomy to it. Yeah. Because I had a because I had a professor my freshman year at Bible College. She, was a fantastic professor, but she was really she was, like, trying to help students because she knew that we were gonna have 4 years of using the Bible like a textbook. Mhmm.
Luke:And she's like, what is that gonna do to your spiritual life and the way you interact with the Bible? Yep. And she's like, it doesn't have to become a textbook for you.
Cameron:Right.
Luke:And so, you know, really advocating for, like, a positional heart posture that even though, like, we like, I had to go through these old testament, new testament surveys, I had to write a summary of every single book of the bible. And it was just like, we'd turn in these, like, 15, 30 page tomes
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And the TA is great at it. And you're just trying to get through it. Like, how do you how does how is that devotional? Right. How is this how how am I not just doing this?
Luke:And so the same thing applies to the sermon. Like, am I just reading this to see, oh, how I need to preach it?
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:But oftentimes, and people come up to me and they say, oh, that was an impactful sermon. I really needed to hear that. I end up just saying, you know what? I needed to hear it too.
Cameron:Yep.
Luke:I'm preaching to myself a lot of times.
Cameron:Yeah. There's a famous quote out there and I don't know whose it is. Mhmm. But it's something to the effect of, like, preachers usually preach to save their own souls. Yeah.
Cameron:I don't maybe that's
Luke:Something like that.
Cameron:It's something like that. I don't anyway, but I've never really quite understood. I guess I'd I mean, I understand it, but, like, I spent a lot of time in the word in a week.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:A lot of time. And it is, one of the main reasons I spent a lot of time in the word is because I am preparing to teach it Yeah. Or preach through it. And, there are, I suppose, like, the way in which you approach it makes a difference. Yeah.
Cameron:You know, if I approach the word with like a, how am I gonna preach this? How am I gonna teach this? Or Lord, what do you have for your people in this? Then you kind of go into it with an expectation of, I'm not listening to the Lord's voice for me Mhmm.
Luke:In
Cameron:it. I'm listening to the lord's voice and for the congregation. And I do think it does, it does make a difference what you anticipate as you approach the scripture. Yeah. To how it like sits with you.
Luke:Yeah. Because not everybody approaches well, like, I'll just say like earlier when I was when I was newer to preaching, I was really anxious about the task. Mhmm. And I was because I was like, am I gonna come up with something? Is it gonna be clever?
Luke:Is it gonna be clear? Is it gonna be right? And so with all of that anxiety, there was a whole lot of just like, oh, I gotta come up with so many illustrations and I gotta, you know and that pressure and the performance aspect of it was of a higher degree because I was simply new at the task and the mechanics of it. The more that that has lessened, the more comfortable I feel in it, and the less I'm focused on some of the nuts and bolts, and I'm just kind of doing it. I think it has become more devotional for me.
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:I guess so I guess it I maybe it depends on the type of preaching or how your preparation even feels or operates.
Cameron:Yeah. I I don't know that I can I just don't know that I can really easily separate what the Lord does in us as people, us as individuals, me as a son Mhmm? With what I'm doing as a preacher or pastor. Like there's not like a direct correlation all the time, but I just can't get behind the idea that God is, like, speaking to the congregation through the Holy Spirit's, like, wisdom in my words, but not speaking to me at the same time.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:You know? And so it's like that I feel like I have to be moved by the spirit of God through the text that I'm preaching Mhmm. Or there's no, like it's very hard to communicate it with a pastoral heart if I have not first been at least in some ways or in the process being transformed by it. Yeah. And so to so to so to say that like, oh, no, I have a portion of scripture that I'm reading devotionally and I have a portion of scripture that I'm studying to preach.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:Feels a little bit like, well, you could actually study to preach it and have it
Luke:Be devotional.
Cameron:Be devotional.
Luke:Right. Which I think is the if you can do that, do that. Right. Like that would be the better thing I'd think.
Cameron:Mhmm. Yeah. But, yeah, that that that might be more of, like, my personal belief or my personal theology on, like, pastoral ministry and the work of preaching than it does a, like, a universal principle for
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:Industry.
Luke:Yeah. Oh. Different different people, different seasons, different, you know? Yeah.
Cameron:So what were we gonna talk about today?
Luke:Well, we we said ecclesiology in a broad sense.
Cameron:It's a little bit of what we just did, but
Luke:A little bit. Yeah. Because it is like it's a it's a thing that is in play all the time, but isn't maybe always talked about explicitly in church. We should probably define ecclesiology for our listeners.
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:So
Cameron:So ecclesiology is the study of the church. Mhmm. I think isn't the root isn't the root of ecclesiology? Yes. It would have to be.
Cameron:Yeah. So, when you see the word church in the, scripture, the new testament Mhmm. It is not exclusively, I don't think, but almost always the Greek word, ekklesia.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Ekklesia with little squiggly above one of those, letters. No. Listen. Greek was 20 years ago. So 20 plus.
Cameron:Yes. So and the word ekklesia does not is not translated church. Right. It's from 2 word, 2 root words, ek and kleo, which means called out of. And so when we see the word church in scripture, we're seeing the word ekklesia, which has which was originally the definition was a people who are called out of.
Cameron:Its focus was not on a location. It was not on a facade or a building. It was focused on a people. Right. With a particular, with a particular, like, distinguishable mark about them.
Cameron:And that distinguishable mark about them was that they were called out of Mhmm. The world in which they lived, meaning that they were called to be separate. They were called to be holy,
Luke:like
Cameron:we talked about this past week. They were called to be distinguished by this one unifying principle and that one unifying principle was their faith in Jesus Christ. Mhmm. So to talk about eclisiology, the study of the church, you're really talking about the study of the people of God.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:But throughout time, throughout history, throughout church history, theological history even, that the study of the church has also been like the study of church structures Yeah. And church governments. And what are some other factors that are involved in ecclesiology? Membership. Like worship, preaching.
Luke:Worship, preaching.
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:Like, the role, salvation actually, if because the role
Cameron:of the church
Luke:in salvation, which is big divide between Protestants and Catholics. And it's why a lot of us don't seem to understand Catholics. And then, I can't think of anything else.
Cameron:Church discipline. Church discipline.
Luke:Yeah. That one, offices, roles
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:Gender
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:Inside of the church. Mhmm. Gifts. Gifts, orderly worship, all of those texts.
Cameron:Yeah. Yeah. Tithing. Yeah. And then maybe even like tied a little bit to mission too.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:Like, what is the role of the church in regards to mission Yep. Evangelism Mhmm. Acts of service or social justice.
Luke:Yeah. And also authority. Like, the authority v against the authority of the individual in interpreting and understanding and determining interpretation and Bible and truth and Mhmm. Practice.
Cameron:Yeah. So everything. Everything. Yeah. I guess in some ways you could.
Luke:Yeah. In some ways it touches all of those things.
Cameron:Yeah. But, ecclesiology in a little bit, or in a lot of ways kind of defines what even the whole podcast is about. Yeah. You know, all of the things that kind of surround or revolve around church life or the study of the church or the study of the community of called out people.
Luke:Yeah. And it was it it's a really important thing because there is that I think I sent you a video yesterday of I actually, I can think of 2 videos I sent of you yesterday. The one like, the the one pod Well,
Cameron:I just got done watching the hammock when they reset these.
Luke:But the one was it was like I won't say the joke. But the guy who was making a joke about the Bible and then he immediately runs into, like, a garage door or something. Yeah. Uh-huh. And it said something about, like, the bro who says he doesn't need to go to church or something like that.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And then there was the other one, which is like a podcast like this. And this one guy was trying to flex about knowing the Bible.
Cameron:It was Chad Ochocinco.
Luke:Oh, I don't I didn't even know.
Cameron:It was Chad Ochocinco who was trying to flex and Shannon Sharp who was calling him out about it. So there are 2 big football personalities.
Luke:Oh, okay. Well, the guy was like, 7's the number of completion, you know, and, like, he's like, how many how many books in the Bible? What did he what did he say?
Cameron:32.
Luke:32. And then he was like, oh, no. That's 66. 32 is half of 66.
Cameron:Yeah. It just devolves. That was bad.
Luke:But both of those were kind of making fun of this, like, because, like, I've encountered those people who are just like, I don't need to go to church. I, you know, I go out into the woods and that's God's church, Or, I read the Bible all the time, and I know, like, I know the word, like, I don't need to go to church. Like, why why should I go to church? You know? Or I watch online, which is very
Cameron:Oh, boy.
Luke:You know? And so, like, and so that's that's what I call my church is the church that, like, I watch online or whatever. Mhmm.
Cameron:So what do we wanna say about those things? I mean, yeah. Like, oh, boy.
Luke:Did I tee you up to say it for controversy?
Cameron:No. I'm not really. Like, because obviously, it is a, like, it is a I I don't know if it's so much as a question as it is, like, something that's we talk about a lot. People who I don't know if we've talked about it here even, but people who are like, well, I love Jesus Yeah. But I just don't like the church.
Cameron:Mhmm. I don't I hate the church. I love Jesus. I hate the church.
Luke:Yep.
Cameron:Or like that you said, like, yeah, I follow Jesus, but, like, my church is the woods or the outdoors or whatever it is.
Luke:Or my back porch
Cameron:or whatever. And I guess the question
Luke:to
Cameron:the question then that needs to be answered is, is that legitimate? Right. Like and and not is it legitimate based on my personal preferences or opinions. Like, because obviously people are gonna say, well, yeah, you guys are biased. You're pastors.
Cameron:You want people to come to church. Well, I don't think that I'm biased because I want people to come to church. I think I want people to come to church because I believe it's the way in which scripture communicates is the context, the environment of Christian maturity.
Luke:Yeah. Because to be honest with you, there are easier ways for us to do ministry Yep. With less overhead, less complications, less headache. If we just decide that, like, actually gathering together as a church is not important, We could do church entirely virtually Mhmm. Or even through non synchronous content, and we just become like a a content publishing house Yes.
Luke:To people and like The content
Cameron:and the theology and the teaching part of ministry is, without question, the easiest part Yeah. Is, like, the easiest, like, low stress Yep. No headaches Yep. Like, just crank out the theological content.
Luke:We could just make it as, like, a subscription website and people could just subscribe to it and call that church.
Cameron:Yeah. Except that we don't believe that. Yeah. We don't believe that that's church. We believe that that would be wrong.
Cameron:Yes. Because we believe that church is a community of people. Yeah. And that in order to be, in order to pursue Christian maturity, there must be unity of the spirit Mhmm. Among those who have faith in Jesus Christ.
Cameron:And part of that unity is proximity. Mhmm. It also like if I've said this once, I've said this a thousand times, like Jesus is not inspired by your faithfulness to him. When you say I love Jesus, but I hate the church. It's not some like Jesus doesn't get some kind of like nostalgic, like, oh, I'm so glad they love me feeling.
Cameron:It would be similar to you, Lou, coming to me and being like, Cameron, I really love you. I hate your wife though.
Luke:I would be on the floor pretty quick. Okay. You know? Would at me down in case anyone's wondering.
Cameron:It well, if that's what it's analogous to, you know, the scripture is really clear that that the church is the bride of Christ and that Christ has come and died and sacrificed himself for the church, that Jesus is the head of the church, which is his body, that that Jesus has, that Christ has apportioned gifts within the church so that people may grow up in Christian unity. That's part of Ephesians 4 that we didn't get to talk about yesterday, that Christ apportioned certain gifts to certain roles in certain places within the church Mhmm. So that they might be built up into the fullness of the wholeness of who God has called into being Christ. And so to say I love Jesus, but I hate the church is to is to like basically, you know, like take a shot at the bride of Jesus. And I think really what it means at its heart is like, no, you like the teaching of Jesus and the vibe of Jesus.
Cameron:You know? Not even the teaching. You like the vibe of Jesus Yeah. But you don't love Jesus. Mhmm.
Cameron:Because there's there, it is impossible to love Jesus and hate the church. Impossible. In the same way, it's impossible for you to love me, but hate my wife. Like we are 1. We are like, we, we cannot be separated from one another.
Cameron:We are, we are, we, we are 1 in covenant unity. Yep. And, and so the which is why, like, that to me is a really difficult statement and why I think there needs to be a, a reeducation or a initial education campaign on what the church is Yeah. And how it functions in our, in our walk with Christ and our pursuit of Christian maturity. But, also, let me tell me what you think about this.
Cameron:Is that like, why the, why the practical application of living in community needs to be taught so extensively in Christian community. Because what usually happens when, when someone says I love Jesus, but I hate the church is they're expressing some significant, legitimate significant and legitimate hurt Mhmm. Trauma
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Judgment, sin that has been done to them Mhmm. That has that they have then used as a really, really wide paintbrush. Yeah. To coat the entirety of the church with, but have never gone through or experienced the process, the pain, the difficulty, but then also the reconciliation of doing things like relational forgiveness, humility, gentleness, sacrifice, patience, forbearance, Christ likeness. Christ likeness with other people.
Cameron:And so instead of pursuing the path of Christ within the community of Christ, they have instead just thrown the baby out with the bathwater. And like, well, obviously I'm not, I'm out. The church doesn't work Right. Because it hurt me. Yep.
Cameron:People hurt you, and the gospel has an answer for that. Mhmm. So, but like a massive reeducation, you know, like campaign needs done in the American church Yep. For that to take root. I think that is one of the major tasks of the preacher and the pastoral leader is to lead people.
Cameron:1, obviously towards a greater love for God Mhmm. But also a greater love for one another. And that greater love for one another is what keep people rooted in community. Commitment to that. Mhmm.
Cameron:We're talking a lot, like, all about not all about that, but it's a major factor of what we're talking about on our in our Sunday morning sermons.
Luke:Well, that's what I was Ephesians. That's what I was thinking because I was thinking about, like, because, like, I don't wanna say that people I I don't wanna go quite so far because I don't think it's a 100% true, in, like, the ex most extreme sense of, like but, like, where where is where is God? Is he just like, is fearly above us in the clouds? Is he, like, out in the woods? And I know lots of people who have experiences, and find Jesus in their own individual.
Luke:Like, lots of people find Jesus apart from the
Cameron:church. Mhmm.
Luke:But, like, Ephesians, like, has some pretty strong language around around this. I wanna say, yeah, at the end of verse or end of chapter 2 of Ephesians, You've got verse 19.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:I'll start there. It says, consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers. So we're no longer all of us diverse people were no longer foreigners and strangers to each other, but we're fellow citizens with God's people and also members of his household. Built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone In him, the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him, you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his spirit.
Luke:And I don't think that that passage is not talking about individuals. No. It's talking about a community. Yes. And we wanna talk about where's God dwell because we don't have a temple anymore.
Luke:We don't have, a tabernacle or it God was in the pillar in the fire. He was in the the ark of the covenant. God is not there anymore, but he is with his people.
Cameron:Yep. Dwelling in his spirit. People as in plural.
Luke:As in plural. Mhmm. Right? And that is like, this is only one of, I know there's other texts in the New Testament that speak like this. I can think of, Peter talks this way.
Luke:Like, it's seen as this corporate identity. And when we kind of we wanna say, well, we can just go somewhere else. Like, well, no. There God is uniquely with his church in a way Yes. That he's not with you all by yourself.
Luke:Correct. Correct.
Cameron:Not a popular idea. No. Well, and not an I should say, not an American idea.
Luke:No. Yeah.
Cameron:Yeah. It's it is, I think we we do see this or at least I've heard I should say I don't see it because I'm not really a part of it. But, I have heard that this is not as much of an issue in the eastern church
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Than it is in the western church. Because the western world is a really individualistic Mhmm. Postmodern, post Christian even. Like, you know, me and my salvation.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:Where in the Eastern church, so much of their life with Christ is built around the built around community, is built around the family of God, the all those who express faith in Jesus Christ being united by one spirit
Luke:Yep.
Cameron:And the spirit of God living in them together as a whole. I think we both talked about it a little bit this past Sunday Mhmm. In 2 different services Yeah. About how, you know, when we pray and when we sing, especially songs that sing holy, holy, holy is Lord God Almighty, that we are joining with the whole of the church.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And the question was like, well, yeah, of course we're the whole yeah. Everyone in the room, the whole church is singing the same song.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:And that's not what we mean.
Luke:No. Right.
Cameron:What we mean is that the whole of the church, the whole of the people who by faith in Jesus Christ filled with his spirit have been called out of the world, both here and now and in heaven. Yep.
Luke:The great cloud of witnesses.
Cameron:Correct. Yes. Are all singing the same. So like the church on earth united with the church in heaven singing now at the same time, holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty. Worthy is the lamb of God who was and is and is to come.
Cameron:Mhmm. And I even like like people are gonna think people are gonna think that I'm, like, a closeted Catholic. I'm really not. And I'm not even an apologist for the Catholic faith.
Luke:No. We're not trying to convert people.
Cameron:I'm not trying to but but this is again a really misunderstood part of Catholic theology. Mhmm. Wow. They pray to to other human beings. They pray to Saint Peter.
Cameron:They pray to Saint Michael. They pray to, you know, Mary and it is maybe a nuance that's not quite understood, but they're not praying to those people. They're asking those people whom they have like connection with in the spirit because
Luke:they're part of
Cameron:the church to pray for them. Right. Similar to a way, like we think that there's just some, like, magical barrier between this world, this the earth and heaven. Right. Right?
Cameron:But I would have no problem coming to you, who is my you are my brother in Christ. Believe in Jesus Christ. You have the same spirit of God in you that I have in me, being like Luke. Would you please pray for me?
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:For this thing, this issue. Right. No one's saying to me, well, like, why would you ask Luke to pray for you when you can just pray yourself? Yeah. And and because well, because there's the power in the prayer of the saints.
Cameron:Yep. Right? And if you've ever wondered why people why Catholics pray to the saints, they're not praying to the saints in the same way that they pray to God.
Luke:Right. They
Cameron:are asking asking the saints who we are connected with by faith in Jesus Christ. Mhmm. Please pray for me, my brother, my sister. Yep. Holy Mary, full of grace.
Cameron:Pray for me.
Luke:Right. That's what it says.
Cameron:That's what it says. Right. Right? Pray for me. And I think it is a beautiful part of Catholic ecclesiology
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:To understand that the saints in heaven can pray for us.
Luke:Right. Yep.
Cameron:Tell me what's wrong with that. I I don't know.
Luke:Well, I I think one thing is that, like because we've we've talked about things that are kind of Catholicesque or the way in which Catholic theology. Do you think it's that, like, it's the same thing? Because, like, people, you know, someone comes to you or I, Cameron, says, well, I went to a nondenominational church once, and they were awful. There was tons of spiritual abuse, and they taught that, that like, I don't know, some weird, they they taught Arianism or something like that. They taught that Jesus was you know, not God or something.
Luke:And and so, like, just non non non denominational churches are just awful.
Cameron:Or like something, like, that we might actually hear is like they this non denominational church taught that if you don't speak in tongues, then you don't have the holy spirit.
Luke:Right. Right. And so now I'm just angry because I think all non denoms teach that. Exactly. Do you think that's kind of what's happened happened is that there's a lot of parishes that either by just non explicit teaching or unclear teaching or people just growing up in the Catholic church and never really understanding certain parts of it?
Luke:Like, is it lots of misunderstanding and then pockets of in in incorrect application and teaching of
Cameron:I think so.
Luke:Catholic doctrine and practice and teaching?
Cameron:I think so. I think that's what it's gotta be. Is that, like, what I don't see in Catholicism a lot is the effectiveness of catechesis. Mhmm. Like, that there's not there's not a rootedness of their catechism so that there's a deep like a gut level personal understanding of, this is why we practice faith in the way in which we do.
Luke:Right. Which is funny because they have such a strong
Cameron:program for it. And even, like, even funnier still is because their belief has not changed in 100 and 100 and 100 of years.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:This is not this is not new. Like, some things change with Vatican 2, but not much.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Right? Nothing, at least in the catechesis, has changed. Yeah. Like, so we're talking about theology that has been rooted in a church for freaking forever. Yeah.
Cameron:So it's not like a, oh, well, we once thought this, but no. Now we think this. Like, no, this is the same Right. As it's always been.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:And so for me, it has to be like a has the Catholic church as a whole Mhmm. Become so like, become so separated from it's the necessity to ensure that its members understand the practice of their faith.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:So and but but part of it here part of it, I think, is is the church's fault because they don't always I don't know that the Catholic church always believes that understanding is necessary.
Luke:I don't think they do.
Cameron:For, for faith, for the practice of faith. Right. You don't need to understand something for it to be effective. They, I half believe it and I half agree with it.
Luke:Right. You know? Right. And I know that that probably is, that's probably a pretty good description of like medieval Catholicism. Like when you had people, when you had priests saying the Latin that couldn't read Latin.
Cameron:Right.
Luke:You know? Sure. This is they're going to the Latin liturgy, but they don't know the liturgy. They don't actually understand what they're saying. They're just doing it because that's what they've been told to do.
Luke:Right. So I don't know if that's representative on any level now, but Yeah. We're not Catholics, and we've neither of us have ever been Catholics.
Cameron:So Sure. But yeah. I don't know. I'm not a Catholic apologist, but I'm also not anti Catholic. Yeah.
Cameron:I'm really not. Yeah. But,
Luke:Anyways.
Cameron:Anyways, whatever.
Luke:Hashtag Cameron's Catholic. Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron:Yeah. No. There are, there are a number of reasons why I can never be a Catholic Yeah. Especially a priest. But, like We
Luke:we did a whole episode responding to a Catholic video. That was way back Yeah. Last year, sometime somebody was like it was a Catholic video. Someone who's like a Catholic apologist of, like, saying was like ten reasons why Protestants are heretics or something like that.
Cameron:Something like that.
Luke:So we went through it and It was such a caricature.
Cameron:It it was yeah. It was so strong, man, that that it was like, this is not even
Luke:Wow. Because it's like heretics according to who you and just because we're not Catholic, essentially. Like, essentially, why are Protestants not Catholic is another way to title the video that was made. Correct. And we just responded to it.
Luke:And sometimes she was very right and other times you're right. That's not true to all protestants or good representation. Right.
Cameron:I think I think some of our answers to that were like, well, yeah, we don't do that because we're not Catholics. Yeah.
Luke:I think they're Like, I don't know
Cameron:how else you want an answer.
Luke:They don't acknowledge the pope's authority. We're like, correct. He don't.
Cameron:He wears a funny hat. Sorry.
Luke:He's got a funny mobile. He drives around. Right? Yeah. No.
Luke:We don't we don't go through weird smoke. Man, like, the selecting of a pope is something else.
Cameron:Like It is.
Luke:Different colored smoke and stuff.
Cameron:Like Yep.
Luke:I don't
Cameron:What would you say, like, are there pieces of Catholic theology or practice that are, like, for you, like, probably the sticking points between not for not being Catholic?
Luke:I mean, like, mostly, it's got to do with, like, this is where I get stuck with pretty much all denominations of any kind, is that at some point, denominations tend to crystallize and stop movement on practice, like, in a like, they kind of, like, freeze their authority in some ways. Now the Catholic hasn't Catholic church hasn't necessarily done that, but, like, sometime like, it's like, well, we wear these robes and, like, they're now sacred. Well, at one point, you didn't wear those robes and you decided you could wear those robes.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And then now it's become almost as, like, set in stone as the bible. Mhmm. And I was like, but if we're still the church, don't we have decisions over our own practice and implementation of the faith? Sure. And so why can we not adjust what we'd previously adjusted?
Luke:Yeah. And then for some reason, we just stopped adjusting that one piece. And that's kind of how a lot of practice happens. And I'm not saying that necessarily for theology, because I'm not I'm not particularly a fan of I'm not, like, in agreement that, like, all theology needs to be moving in this progressive No. No.
Luke:Definitely not. That would make me a liberal. So I think, like, that's probably it's the way the authority of the churches and the denominations kind of function always feels a little silly to me. So that's probably, like, the biggest sticking point of why I have such a hard time fitting into pretty much any denomination. But then, you know,
Cameron:the pope. I just I, the, like People structure.
Luke:People structure, the pope, the way that that plays out has played out historically. Like, the an I'm not an infant baptist. Mhmm. If I was, I'd probably be Anglican. So yeah.
Cameron:What about sacrament?
Luke:I'm pretty, like, I'm I'm pretty open to sacrament mentalism. I I prefer, a less defined sacramentalism. So, like, the way the Catholic functions through sacrament tends to be too platonic in my view. Like, it's too much of, like, the, like, what did what did Plato's call those things? The the real essence of the thing that exists, the true image that exists in the other realm and, like, the way transubstantiation is overly explained in the Catholic church.
Luke:Mhmm. I'm like, I don't think we actually have to rely on a platonic philosophy to explain that. I think we can just say, Christ is present and then be done with it. I don't think we have to transmute the blood, the wine and or the juice and the bread into something. I think God is present with his church and is present in the elements.
Luke:How? I don't know, and I don't really care. I just think it's really important. Yep. So that's me sacramentally.
Luke:So, like, you know?
Cameron:But they would say like, no, there's a hard stop on that. Right. So much so much so that you and I can't take communion in the Catholic church Yes. If we say we're not Catholic.
Luke:Right. They would be very offended by what what what I just
Cameron:said. Right.
Luke:But I just that whole transmutation and, like, into the actual essence, I see as just a a large philosophical extrapolation that I don't think is necessary.
Cameron:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Luke:So I hopefully we didn't confuse our listeners with my answer, but
Cameron:I understood it.
Luke:Yeah. Okay. Oh, good. You understood it. Yeah.
Cameron:Yeah. Alright. Well, I don't know that we got very far.
Luke:No. We didn't. We just talked about how important the church is. Yes. So it's important, people.
Luke:We continue to believe that.
Cameron:Yeah. I will believe that for all my days. Yep.
Luke:And we talked about how we're not Catholic.
Cameron:Yes. But we're also not not Catholic. Alright. Well, thanks for listening today, everyone. Give us a like, a subscribe, a share, listen, a rate, a review, wherever it is that you're watching.
Cameron:Whatever type of feedback that you can give us,
Luke:I don't know what I want
Cameron:to talk about today. Although I do know that I think maybe a fun series of episodes over a couple of times would be, like, talking about some of our most favorite bible stories, particularly, like, old testament bible stories. You know? I mean, not like
Luke:Like favorite or is it like interesting?
Cameron:Well, both. Both. And like, like, I was thinking I was, reading an audio book I was running yesterday. It's by a, it's by a marathoner who is he has the fastest recorded marathon time for an American, but he's also a his main platform is running, but his secondary platform is his Christian faith, Ryan Hall. And he was talking about what I was like, Oh, that is an awesome story.
Cameron:And I've preached a sermon on it once actually, or a series of sermons on it once on 12 stones when the Israelites, you know, crossed the when they crossed the Jordan into the promised land, and they took 12 stones and or they taught, like, each tribe brought a stone to make a monument to the Lord to help them remember God's faithfulness. Yeah. And he was talking just about the application of his life and, like, you know, if you were to look back in the last 12 months of your life, what is one stone that you would take from each month in order to, like, remember god's faithfulness or goodness or anything like that? And I'm just thinking I was just thinking through. I was like, you know, it'd be like there are a lot of great stories in scripture.
Cameron:Some that don't get talked about a whole lot, but that have really great application. And I thought at some point, it would be fun to maybe talk about some of those types of things. Mhmm.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:I also think I wanna do a series sometime this year called We Believe where we take we like really every big general theological concept that you're gonna get in a systematic. Mhmm. So I'll say atoma theology and ecclesiology and eschatology and soteriology. And, and we talk through, okay, what are some of the relevant texts? What are some of the, like the, the premises or not even just the basics, but even Yeah.
Cameron:Some of the more granular beliefs about them, and maybe just where we both personally land on, maybe pivoting points in each of the theologies, each of the areas or Mhmm. Whatever.
Luke:That'd be fun. Mhmm. I like it.
Cameron:I think even, like, atonement theology. Like, I don't think I think most people the majority of people, I think, have only, like, one view of atonement theology and that's penal substitution.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:I had a seminary professor who was like, if you argue for penal substitution as the prominent theology in scripture, I'm gonna fail you. But he, like, literally said actually, I went to him when I was writing my my thesis. Mhmm. And I was doing atonement in the book of Hebrews. And he I essentially said, like, I'd like to, you know, kind of juxtapose and argue against and for, certain theories of the atonement as found in Hebrews.
Cameron:And he basically said, I'm not interested in being your adviser if your premise or starting point is penal substitution is the primary view of the atonement in the new testament because I am not interested in it. Wow.
Luke:Yeah. Like hard on that. Go hard on that. Yeah.
Cameron:He went hard on it. I mean, he's a brilliant theologian. Yeah. And and but he had I remember doing probably some of the reading that I remember the most in seminary was from his classes. Mhmm.
Cameron:But, yeah, it would be fun to talk about moral influence and crisis Victor and ransom theory and all those penal substitution of course.
Luke:Yeah. Cool. Well, do you wanna talk about ecclesiology?
Cameron:How do you wanna talk about it?
Luke:I have no idea.
Cameron:Yeah. I don't know either.
Luke:I like both of those ideas you just gave, but they feel bigger.
Cameron:They feel bigger. They those those are both things that I'm like, I need to we need to prepare A little
Luke:bit more.
Cameron:To have those conversations. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we can talk a little bit about it in terms of like unity and peace in the spirit as we're seeing in, like, Ephesians.
Luke:Yeah. I had a I had a book title come to me this morning when I woke up.
Cameron:Oh, yeah?
Luke:Stop Going to Church.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:Because, like, you're not going to church. You are the church. Right.
Cameron:Mhmm. Right? Yeah.
Luke:You know? And it'd be a good, like, launching point off to, like, talk about just, like, calling out just religiosity in general. Yep.
Cameron:Okay. We can start talking. Okay.
Luke:Let's do it.
