Apostles & Elders - Making Sense of Church Leadership in the Bible
Welcome to the uncut podcast. I'm pastor Luke.
Cameron:And I'm pastor Cameron.
Luke:And this is The Uncut Podcast where we have honest uncut conversations about faith, life, and ministry, and the drinks that we have in our hands each and every day.
Cameron:Today, it's a Jocko Go. It's Real energy with 0 crash. I would say it's true. It doesn't chocolates usually don't give me the type of crash that are caffeine based. Yeah.
Cameron:There's not really any caffeine in this A little bit, but not a ton. Yeah. But it's also, sorry, Jocko. It's not quite as good as as long as I have caffeine in them.
Luke:I am drinking a San Pellegrino, my choice of sparkling natural mineral water. So
Cameron:So those are our drink sponsors for today. Those are
Luke:our drink sponsors. Hashtag not. Also not. Yep. But so we, Cameron, we were having, so we've been doing, like, these Wednesday night classes Mhmm.
Luke:For those who maybe do not know. We Sunday mornings, we're preaching through a book of the Bible. Right now, it's the book of Ephesians, and we've been carrying that conversation over into, essentially a Wednesday night bible study or class. Mhmm. And because you kinda planned out the sermon series for the series of Ephesians, and you kinda planned some things to kinda be covered in the sermons on Sunday and some things to kinda be talked about on Wednesdays.
Luke:Not because they were necessarily not important, but just because, like, for the sake of
Cameron:The treatment of them Yeah. Required more time.
Luke:Right. Mhmm. Or, yeah, or we also we didn't want the sermon series of Ephesians to be the entire year. Or
Cameron:Right. Yeah. I mean, there's only we play in Ephesians for 8 weeks, which you think, oh, it has only has 6 chapters. That should be easy. Chapter a week.
Cameron:Well, I mean, like, most most most preachers or most pastors who who do this have done this long enough or preach on a regular basis would tell you that, like, preaching through a book like Ephesians, which is really there's a lot of depth to it. Yeah. A lot of stuff there. A lot
Luke:of stuff.
Cameron:A lot of different topics, lot of, like, lot of different theological concepts, lots about the church, structure of the church, theology of the church. Mhmm.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:A lot about, like, practical living and application to our personal lives. So it'd be they'd find it difficult to preach through it in 8 weeks.
Luke:Yeah. Well, it's I think, you know, just like just like when you're in a buffet line, you under you overestimate how much you can actually get through in any given meal or Sunday service. And so Yeah.
Cameron:Well, even last week preaching, I I think I had, like, a 16 verse. Yeah. I had I had it planned for 16 verses.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And I only really dealt with 6 Yeah. Versus out of it because it was there's a lot there.
Luke:Yeah. So Yeah. So that's that's meant that our Wednesday night classes have kind of served as like part 2 to the to the sermon series almost and a space for people to kind of go deeper on some of the stuff that we don't have the time to talk about on a Sunday. Yep. So this last week, we ended up kind of talking about the everyone's favorite and most interesting topic in the entire world, which is church offices and structure.
Cameron:Mhmm. Yeah. Not like the architectural layout of your church. No. Like how many offices do you have?
Cameron:How is your building structured? Not that.
Luke:No. Not that.
Cameron:But like the offices, in the same way that you would talk about at like a college, the office of the dean. Sure. Yeah. Something like the office of the president. Yeah.
Luke:You know? What what positions
Cameron:Position. Are there
Luke:inside of a church?
Cameron:Yeah. Or roles Right. Or whatever.
Luke:Like, well, do you want to just maybe read the passage Yeah. As a good introduction Right. To kinda why and how we kind of started that conversation?
Cameron:So it's out of Ephesians chapter 4 and, I guess the I don't know if the context is important here or not. I think it both is and it isn't. I don't know. For sake of real estate, I will just say that the context of all of Ephesians and then even going into Ephesians chapter 4 is Paul's theological insistence on the unity that comes through the spirit of God to all those that are have, you know, expressed faith in Jesus Christ. So we're united together by the Holy Spirit.
Cameron:Mhmm. That unification is something that needs to be fought for. And the reason that needs to be fought for is because we have an enemy that tries to destroy it, and in destroying it, it can destroy us. And that part of the pursuit of unity is really actually the pursuit of Christian maturity. Mhmm.
Cameron:About growing up into the fullness of all that is Jesus Christ. And that in Ephesians chapter 4 specifically, Paul starts the conversation about how how Jesus actually himself has apportioned. What's the actual word? It was maybe he doesn't use the word apportioned. Oh, no.
Cameron:In verse 7, but each but to each one of us, grace has been given as Christ has apportioned it. Mhmm. Right? And then we could talk a little bit about the parenthetical, verses of 9 and 10, but that's not the point of this conversation. Then he goes into into verse 11, referencing Jesus again.
Cameron:He doesn't use his words, the adverb there or the, the pronoun. It was he, Jesus, who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers. Those are the offices of the roles. Mhmm. Right?
Cameron:Christ gave them. Mhmm. Why did he give them? Verse 12 to prepare God's people for works of service so that the body of Christ may be built up.
Luke:Yep.
Cameron:What's what more did he give them for? Until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we'll no longer be thrown back and forth like infants by the waves blown here and there, by every wind of teaching, by the cunning and craftiness of men and their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will, in all things, grow up into him who is the head that is Christ. From him, the whole body joined and held together by every supporting ligament grows and builds itself up in love as each part does its work So we re we really talked about like the verse, 11.
Luke:Yeah. Well, because it gets right into it. It says, so Christ gave, himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors, and the teacher and teachers to equip his people for service. And so the question then is like, okay, well, you know, so does that mean he gave he gave to the church these things?
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And the way you kind of started the conversation off of that being is like, okay. Well, does that mean every church needs to have apostles, a prophet, evangelist, and a pastor, and a teacher?
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:And like, what is what does this mean? What is this? Is this like a outline right here of, like, you know, your church structure? Should we be, like should we put out an want added the ad? What do you call that?
Luke:Want to add Mhmm. On, like, Craigslist or something or Indeed, and or LinkedIn
Cameron:for Looking for an apostle.
Luke:Looking for apostle. Uh-huh. 5 years prior experience needed. Yeah. Entry level position.
Cameron:Pay commensurate upon experience of seeing Jesus in the resurrected form. Right. Yeah. I think that what is one of the main questions that I approached the text with when I was looking at it for this you know, the bible study last week was the question of whether or not this is a list of offices that every church
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:From the time that Paul wrote it until the time that Jesus comes back
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:Needs to have, or if it's particular to the Ephesian context Mhmm. Is this something that Paul wanted the Ephesian church to have? Yeah. Or maybe similar to that, but all but a little bit different is is there an era in which these these offices or these roles exist?
Luke:Right.
Cameron:But in in an era when they cease. Mhmm. And then maybe as a those are kinda like the general questions, but then maybe as a more granular question is what exactly is each of those roles? What is an apostle? Right.
Cameron:What what what would have been an apostle then, and what would be an apostle now? Yeah. I guess it depends on how you answer the first question. Mhmm. And same thing with prophets, evangelists, and pastors, and teachers.
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:So So maybe we start with that first question. Yeah. Because I was thinking about this and because he's he's what does he says here? Says to equip his people for works of service so that the body of Christ might be built up. So he I don't know that he says anything here that necessitates it being even localized to the Ephesians.
Luke:Like, obviously, it's a letter written to the Ephesians. Right?
Cameron:Right.
Luke:But he's talking about, like, the body of Christ, talking about all we all plural and, like, he could be talking about the entirety of the church. Did you read it that way, or did you think that he was talking specifically to the Ephesians church?
Cameron:Well, I mean, not to be tongue in cheek or snarky about it, but I, like, I think he was talking specifically to the Ephesians church because he was writing a letter specifically to the Ephesians church.
Luke:Think this could be like a, like, any sort of, like, he's making a broader statement across, like, that applies to the Ephesian church, but is also applying to the larger church?
Cameron:I mean, I don't know. I think that's really the kind of the hermeneutical question, is what did Paul have in mind when he was writing this? You know, what what was what anytime that Paul wrote was was Paul writing with the understanding that these letters would be universal in nature?
Luke:And
Cameron:that the wisdom in them would be universal in nature. And I think that's a difficult question to answer because then you have to really deal, Then you have then you have a a more difficult time dealing with, like, the pastoral epistles that were extraordinarily contextual to write then.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Written to specific people in specific circumstances. That's why we we look at things like, what's a good example? We could look at things like in the letter to the Corinthians when Paul is talking about the proper and improper way in which they're taking communion. Mhmm. And then we we take that.
Cameron:Paul's very specific, instance to the Corinthians, and we transpose that upon how we take communion now or what, you know, even what we say about communion now. Mhmm. And the question would be, well, is that is that theologically or interpretively appropriate Mhmm. Based on what we know Paul was saying and the context was there, and does that transpose to our context here? It's not always it's not always clear that it does.
Cameron:Right. It doesn't mean that it's any less inspired or any less important, but I think that intent of the author is important. I think it's I I don't think it's something that we can dismiss, but I also think it's very difficult to know the intent of the author. Well, I
Luke:was gonna say intent, I think, is actually philosophically impossible to determine aside from explicit statement.
Cameron:Exactly. Right. So the intent so, like, to say, well, is Paul's intent here to make a comprehensive list of all of the offices of the church universal for all time forevermore. So the only way we would be able to say positively that that would be the case would be that he states that explicitly.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:But the opposite is also true in the sense that we can't discount that Paul is is we we can't say Paul was not making a universal list because he's not he's not saying this is only contextual to the Ephesians. Yeah. Now Right. Christ has given some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Pastors, and teachers. So I think it does come down to a matter of, like, it's got to come down to a matter of, well, there's the rest of the council of scripture
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Number 1. So how do you make it how do you how do you make the interpretive jump to application now? So if we look at the rest of the council of scripture, if we look at maybe the roles themselves Mhmm. And to try and determine what, like, what these roles would have meant to Paul. Right.
Cameron:Like, did Paul have a the usage of the words even? Were they universal words? Like, I guess we just we jump into, like, definitions like like the Yeah. Like the term apostle.
Luke:Well, yeah. Because that's what I was I was thinking because he's like, he's, you know so yeah. Let's do that. So the term apostle. Right?
Luke:And people people debate as to whether or not there are new apostles or people who apostles now. Yeah. I've pretty much always been of the persuasion. No. Same.
Luke:Mhmm. Because well, there's that passage in acts is it 2 or is it 1? It's pretty early on in the book of acts where they're seeking to replace Judas Iscariot. Mhmm. And they kind of talk about, like, well, to be one of us, they have to have been
Cameron:With us from the beginning.
Luke:With us from the beginning. Mhmm. So they make a very clear, argument for it. And then, Paul is a unique dispensation.
Cameron:He's he calls himself the least of all the prophets.
Luke:Least of all the prophets or apostles. Yes. And he's kind of he he saw Jesus resurrected, and was kinda given this message to the Gentiles and the apostles meet with him and they kind of give him the stamp of approval and send him out. He's commissioned by them and has a good relationship with them. And there's other, which I was wondering this yesterday, which book is it that Paul argues against, like the quote unquote, like super apostles, the false apostles that were going around?
Luke:Do you remember?
Cameron:It's gonna be the Thessalonians.
Luke:Maybe. I feel like there's there was some, that would be an interesting place to look because he kind of argues against these, like, teachers who were claiming to be, like, I don't know why why I have the term super apostles because I don't think that's what maybe that just is what we, what theologians have coined the term, but that's not what's in the Bible. The Bible doesn't
Cameron:call it that. Corinthians.
Luke:2nd Corinthians. So that seems to be like a pretty, strict club to be in it. Mhmm. Which passage are we looking at? 10 in 2nd Corinthians.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Well, did I read that right? 2nd Corinthians?
Luke:Maybe. Chapter 10. I mean, he's kind of 3 through 5. 3 through 5. For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.
Cameron:That is not it. That's not it.
Luke:That's not it. It's about spiritual warfare.
Cameron:But how about 115? That might be it. But I do not think I am in the least inferior to these super apostles. Oh, yes.
Luke:It actually does translate
Cameron:it to that. Yeah. Paul and the false apostles.
Luke:Yeah. Look at that.
Cameron:Someone comes to you and preaches to Jesus other than the Jesus we have preached or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it. He's in that. But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those super he's using it tongue cheek.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Very sarcastically. I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way. So, basically, he's calling out those who have, you know, preaching a different gospel.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:The Corinthians are receiving it.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:He's like, I may not be one of these super apostles, but I still know what I'm talking about.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:But anyway, the the even the term apostle, the title apostle means something.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:It means to be sent out. So you're commissioned to do something. Right. So in a manner of speaking, all those who follow Jesus Mhmm. Via the great commission
Luke:Right. Are
Cameron:apostles. Mhmm.
Luke:Right? Yep. In in a lowercase sense.
Cameron:Yes. Right. Or they are yeah. They're apostles. But, if you think about the way in which the, New Testament, specifically, Acts talks about or uses the terms, uses the term apostle.
Cameron:Like, it begins with the 12 Mhmm. Apostles as you stated. Right? But we didn't know them in the gospels as apostles. We knew them as disciples.
Cameron:Yep. Right? Because in disciple in the gospels, they were followers of Jesus. Mhmm. But in acts, in new testament literature, early church literature, Jesus had sent them out pre his ascension, sent them out to go and preach and baptize and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you, and surely, I'm with you always even to the end of age.
Cameron:And so the question then began be I like is like at the death of the original apostles, are we still holding to the office of apostle? Not not necessarily the, like, the the commissioning aspect of an apostle.
Luke:Right. Because we wouldn't limit the great commission to the apostles.
Cameron:The apostolic age.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:No. We'd say that that's for We'd say we're all sent out to do that. Right. But maybe it becomes a distinction between the office and the function. Like, the office, the title Right.
Cameron:Is no longer in
Luke:In use.
Cameron:In use, But the function is Yeah. But I guess begs the question, if the function is, why isn't the title?
Luke:Well, are we correctly understanding even, like, the the function? Right? Like, the apostles were the eyewitness carriers of the teachings of Christ. Mhmm.
Cameron:Mhmm. And the eyewitness carriers of the of Jesus' not just the teachings
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:But of the resurrected Jesus himself.
Luke:Right. And so by that very nature of like, no one else can do that Mhmm. Anymore because it's been 2000 years. Mhmm. And so you can't that would just be kinda I don't know.
Luke:Yeah. So I don't know that their their specific role was to do that, to carry that specific message. We can still carry the same message, but we no longer
Cameron:Meet the qualifications of the office.
Luke:Meet the qualifications of the office. We're simply just being faithful to carry it
Cameron:on. Mhmm.
Luke:And so I think, like you said, that that very first, quote, unquote, office or title, I think, points that, like because Ephesians did not have, like, a resident apostle. Right? And so, like, he I think he's I think that at least indicates that he's talking more broadly amongst all the churches that were being planted at the time. Like, each like, there are prophets out. There are apostles out in amongst these churches.
Luke:There are apostles. There are, like, you know, until you get to the pastors and teachers, which because of other passages in the Bible, we can presume were pretty standard to have it, have at least 1 pastor and teacher. Mhmm. Usually more at each, at each church.
Cameron:Well, Paul goes on to tell Titus to set him up. So
Luke:Right.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And so but then prophets and, evangelists and apostles, perhaps, at least we can see from apostles, we're not like a per church thing all the time. Mhmm. They were more broad than that.
Cameron:I can I can see that? I can I can get on board with that? Yeah. Although I still have my questions about the universality of these lists.
Luke:Well, I think that I think that doesn't necessarily change. That doesn't make it universal now. It makes it Universal then?
Cameron:Yeah. Right? Like Comprehensive to the churches or to the context that was in, not necessarily the context of Ephesians, but the context of the early church at that time.
Luke:Right. That's that's what I think maybe.
Cameron:Okay.
Luke:So I don't know. If you don't don't grieve me, that that's okay.
Cameron:It's okay to it's okay to It's okay
Luke:it's okay for us to disagree?
Cameron:I don't know that I agree or disagree. I just have questions. So Yeah. Mhmm.
Luke:Okay. So if we don't neither of us are convinced that apostles still are active and running around, what do we think of? Prophets. Prophets?
Cameron:I would think I think it's the same. I think I'm I I fall into the same, like, function of the prophet, but not the Mhmm. Office of the title of the prophet. Mhmm. You know, because, like, if you if the function of the prophet is to speak the words of god
Luke:or
Cameron:in whatever way you want to talk about that. Right? Or whatever definite however you wanted whatever word you wanna use to define that. Like, it certainly would be appropriate to say that pastors and preachers sometimes function in the, like
Luke:In a prophetic sense?
Cameron:In a prophetic sense. Yeah. Like, when appropriate, speak the words of God. We certainly do when we proclaim the word of God Mhmm. Like we're speaking the words of God.
Cameron:But in the sense maybe that Paul was thinking here, I don't know that I would say that, like, it is a it be it becomes at least universal to us, maybe, like you said, universal to the early Right. Church context, but they're they're again unsure. Yeah. Unsure.
Luke:I think yeah. Yeah. I I think the thing is is that if it's I think for me, at least if it's universal to the early church context, I think it makes it easier to understand this as not as not necessarily like a prescriptive per church, if that makes sense. Because then it's easier to say, okay, well, then, you know, the apostles have ended and the the prophets are are done.
Cameron:And Rather than, like, bringing them up into eras or ages?
Luke:I mean, it's kind of essentially, I think it lays the groundwork for that argument. Mhmm. If if we're if we understand his his words here is not applying specifically to is meant to be general while applying to Ephesians, but being general as well. Mhmm.
Cameron:So Well, then would you say the same thing about evangelists?
Luke:Mhmm. Well, even because of, like a little bit of, like, the the role of an evangelist is that I don't know that an evangelist is necessarily supposed to be typically inside of an established church. Do you know what I mean? Right. And so I think
Cameron:They travel in such a way as to share the message, to be the messenger Right. But they're not rooted Right. In a specific church. Exactly. Paul would be an evangelist.
Cameron:Right. Right.
Luke:And I don't know that there was anything I can't think of any passage in the New Testament that describes someone as an evangelist in an office sense. And so it might be like someone is an evangelist by merit of what they do. I think
Cameron:yeah. Well, there's the 2nd Timothy passage.
Luke:Do the work of an evangelist. Do
Cameron:the work of an evangelist. Right? But then there's a passage in Acts where it may refer to Philip as an evangelist. I gotta find it here. While I find that, you wanna talk a little bit more about just, like, how you feel we could go should go about the idea of, like, defining between or determining between something that's an office and something that's a like, the difference between the the role or the office and the function.
Luke:The function of it?
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:Man. So
Cameron:I feel I find that that's a hard It
Luke:it is it is a hard thing to kind of, like, drop. I guess there's there's, like, maybe if there's it's easy to say it this way. There are parts of the requirement of the office, maybe some of the functions of the office that we can do, but there are some of the qualities of being of the office that we cannot fulfill now. So apostleship. Right?
Luke:The apostles were, you know, sent to carry the they were sent to carry the message of Christ, his teachings, and his resurrection. Share that, preach that, guard that, train people up, make disciples, baptizing them, all of that. We can do those things now, but we cannot be who they were when they were doing it. So we cannot be having had been with Christ, having witnessed the resurrection. None of those things are available for us to meet.
Luke:And so I think that that might maybe kinda puts us into this place of of being like, we can fulfill the the we can fulfill some of the role and responsibilities, but we cannot be who they were, and therefore, we do not sit in the office with the same authority. And and then even I think in our discussion last Wednesday, I think I pointed out that I'm not sure that profit was something that, like, I'm not sure if it ever functioned as, like, well, it did function as a title, but, like, an office that one sat in all the time. All the time. Yeah.
Cameron:As opposed to like being also like a farmer.
Luke:Right. Like you are a prophet when you have a word from the Lord to communicate.
Cameron:Right.
Luke:And then you're not a prophet when you don't have a word from the Lord to communicate. Yeah. Like, I like, I don't know that it was like, oh, I inhabit the office of prophet, and so everything I say is a word from the Lord or something like that. Or I'm expected to have a word from the Lord on a regular basis or something like that. I just I'm a little dubious of whether or not like that's really the way prophets function.
Luke:We see some prophets function that way in the Old Testament, and we see some that didn't function that way. They had, like, very limited or short term prophetic careers. You know, there was Elijah and Elisha who had this lifelong or Samuel. But then we had others. Some a lot of the minor prophets were just like they were a prophet for, like, 5 years or a year or something like that.
Cameron:Whatever the Lord needed them
Luke:to be. Right. And and then they were not the rest of the time. And so and so it's it for me, it feels kind of strange to bring that forward and say, oh, well, I'm prophet so and so. And like, I'm always prophesizing or something like that.
Cameron:Right. And maybe the same could be said for a thing like an evangelist. I did find that it's, it's Acts chapter 21 where where, Paul refers to Philip the evangelist. Mhmm. But he calls them one of the he's we continue the voyage from Tyre and landed in, Ptolemyse where we greeted the brothers and stayed with them for a day.
Cameron:Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the 7.
Luke:The 7?
Cameron:Yeah. I'm gonna assume the 7 from Acts chapter 6.
Luke:But Oh, okay.
Cameron:Yeah. I don't know. He had 4 unmarried daughters who prophesied. Yeah. Yep.
Cameron:So I think that's the only place that I'm aware of where someone is called an evangelist in the scripture. And then, of course, in 2nd Timothy 5, Paul tells, Timothy to do the work of an evangelist, Which is to be a messenger. Yeah. To carry the message. Mhmm.
Cameron:And, you know, in for the case of the scripture, it's the message of the good news of the gospel.
Luke:Yep. I think, like, I'm fine with somebody calling himself an evangelist. Like, that doesn't really bug me
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:That much.
Cameron:Mm-mm.
Luke:I'm dubious. I've said dubious a lot in this podcast episode, but I'm dubious of anyone who calls himself a prophet.
Cameron:Same.
Luke:Mostly because I don't know that one should be the that we should be the ones to declare ourselves prophets necessarily. I think the the the word has to be self authenticating. Yeah. And even then, I think it's pretty daggone pretentious.
Cameron:Yeah. Well, yes. Very pretentious. I mean and, like, it's also weird because the prophets in scripture were not popular.
Luke:No. You didn't invite them to come speak. They showed up.
Cameron:They were hated. Yeah. And in fact, most of them were killed Mhmm. For their the prophetic nature of their ministry in their life.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:You know, by governments or religious zealots. You know?
Luke:Or ordinary people that they made very mad.
Cameron:Correct. You know? So, yeah, it's not like the not like the prophet was a super desirable job
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Or office in the scripture. Yeah. But yeah, I feel the same way. A little dubious myself Yeah. Of those who have self titled Yeah.
Cameron:Prophet.
Luke:Yeah. And then I'm just categorically against calling oneself an apostle.
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:Like, that's kind of how I at least put it in my in, like, my buckets of conviction. Mhmm. Because, like, I do think that there's, like, the Bible does talk a lot about, like, the gift of prophecy. And I do think that people get prophetic words, but I don't know that that means someone should become a prophet Mhmm. As, like, a title or as, like, a thing that they do on the regular or something like that.
Luke:Or if someone does get, like, a lot of prophetic words, I think the more faithful way to do it is to steward that quietly. Mhmm. Than to to be kind of self declarating about it. Because the way, and I think that even just lays into the way I think prophecy should be handled generally Mhmm. With a much more open hand than the way most people tend to exercise it.
Luke:Mhmm. Mhmm. By that, I mean, like, not walking up to someone saying, thus saith the lord, you are to marry me. Yeah. What are
Cameron:you gonna say about that? Because the lord told me to say it. Right?
Luke:Yeah. Mhmm.
Cameron:Well, what about that last term, pastors and teachers?
Luke:Preachers and teachers. Yeah. Do you remember your you were recently looking at the Greek for it, so I'll I'll rely upon you to remember the the Greek words for that.
Cameron:Yeah. So it was or it is the same as the Greek words that were in, Acts chapter 20 Mhmm. On it. Because they're put in 2 different places. It's presbyteros Mhmm.
Cameron:And, as pastors. It's a presbyter one there. And then the teacher was, I don't remember the conjugation of it, but I think it was.
Luke:Yes. Yeah.
Cameron:Which is from the root word, like, from or teach. Mhmm. You know? So the yeah. The this is the one that I think should get the most airtime
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And should get the most, like, talking about because it is a unlike the term apostle, unlike the term prophet, and unlike the term evangelist, which we see relatively scantly
Luke:Right. In The New Testament.
Cameron:The New Testament. The the the words that we see for pastor, specifically Mhmm. We see quite a bit.
Luke:Yeah. They get used a lot Yeah. In different places and applied to a lot of churches.
Cameron:Correct. But it's also a question of, like, it's not the only way that this word gets translated or what the Paul uses the word pastor here or how it's been translated to pastor in Ephesians chapter 4. And the the Greek word that he uses is presbyteros. Mhmm. Presbyter.
Cameron:Right? But there are other instances where it seems like he's talking about the same office or role Mhmm. But that he uses a different Term.
Luke:Term. Uses elder.
Cameron:He uses well, for us, it's translated as elder, but like elder or overseer. And those are all different Greek words. So there's like episcopas, which is the overseer slash bishop
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And, presbyter. And what's the other one that we talked about the other night?
Luke:Deacons?
Cameron:No. Oh, Shepherd.
Luke:Shepherd. Shepherd.
Cameron:Yep. That the words are used
Luke:Almost interchangeable.
Cameron:Almost interchangeably. And so this this is really the words these are the words that we see, you know, pastor. And to be clear, in in Ephesians chapter 4, don't believe that, like, Paul was talking about 2 separate
Luke:a just feel like you were making some comment about that recently.
Cameron:Like, it doesn't it doesn't appear in the Greek that he was trying to separate those 2, but making sure that that it was understood that the role of pastor teacher was To teach and to teach to teach and shepherd
Luke:Right. To teach and care.
Cameron:To care for and to feed. Mhmm. Right? So I'm gonna bring up my notes from the other night, but
Luke:Technology is supposed to make things easier.
Cameron:It is. Yeah. If you've ever wondered how, uncut this actually is, you're seeing it right now. So
Luke:yeah.
Cameron:Poimen. That's the word. I couldn't think of it. I knew that there was another one. Poimen, which was meant to be, which is what we translate as, which we translate as shepherd or herdsman.
Cameron:And then, yeah, so there's episcopas, which is overseer, presbyteros, which is elder. And then in acts chapter 20, Paul appears to use 3 of those titles kind of interchangeably, elders, overseers, and shepherds. Mhmm. And so, like, if you talk about, like, well, when Paul uses the term elder in scripture, what's he talking about? Term overseer, what's he talking about?
Cameron:The term shepherd, what's he talking about? We believe that he although there's 3 different words, there are 3 different titles essentially talking about the same role Mhmm. In a similar way to as if, like, someone would call me pastor. Mhmm. Someone would call me reverend.
Cameron:Someone would call me minister. Someone would say you're the leader here. Right? They're talking about the same thing.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:It's just generally understood that it's different. It's explained differently. And so when it gets to when it gets to the role of overseer, elder, pastor, shepherd, whatever, while there's not a whole lot of definition in the scripture about what an apostle is or what an evangelist is or what a prophet is
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:There is descriptions about what an elder overseer shepherd Mhmm. Is or should be. Right. Right? And then Paul goes to even more significant length when and adds another office to the life of the church, the office of deacon Mhmm.
Cameron:Which, you know, the the most significant portion of that is in 1st Timothy 3. It's also in 1st or and also in Timothy or I'm sorry. 1st Timothy 3 and Titus chapter 1.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Both give explanations of, okay, this is what an overseer, elder, presbyter, appointee, shepherd is. This is what a deacon is
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:As well. And so in turn in talking about the term or in talking about the offices of the New Testament church. Let me rephrase that. In talking about the offices of the contemporary church
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Now 21st century, I would say that the conversations around what an elder is are the most cogent, are the most appropriate
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Are the most critical for saying like, okay. Do we believe that these offices that Paul was talking about are they have universal application? I would say if I'm gonna fight for the universal application of any office, it would be the office of elder Mhmm. Even though I still have the same questions about its universal contextuality. Yeah.
Cameron:So do you do you think that his do you think that Paul's more detailed description of elder, overseer, shepherd in, first Timothy and in Titus gives it any more universal contextuality?
Luke:I think so, because the question kind of becomes, like, well, what should the structure of a church be? Mhmm. Right? And there there does actually need to be 1. Yeah.
Luke:And so while Paul didn't write any of his well, I don't know that that's not true. Paul because we we also have to remember that Paul knew I'm assuming he knew that these these letters would be passed around at least inside of the regions in which he sent them.
Cameron:And that was fairly common practice.
Luke:Right. And so he wasn't you know, it so he did have at least a broad like, he knew the audience wasn't us now, and the audience wasn't all of the Middle East, but the audience was at least a couple towns,
Cameron:you
Luke:know, of people. And so he he marked it. You know, he went went through, created the list of, like, these this is what a, you know, an elder overseer is, this is what a deacon is, these are the requirements for them, This is how they should kind of, like, operate a little bit because of how they're differentiated. And so I do think that that provides a a more I don't think that that necessarily means, because the text doesn't say, like, all true churches have a organization like this. Right?
Luke:That sentence, that sentiment isn't contained with inside of scripture.
Cameron:No.
Luke:So can't go that far.
Cameron:Right.
Luke:But if we wanted to say, well, what is maybe the, like, what is the model that seems to be present in scripture? That would seem to be the model, the present that's in scripture.
Cameron:Yep.
Luke:Should the church continue you to use the model that's present in scripture? Stands to reason. Stands to reason. Yep. Does that mean we're constrained to it necessarily?
Luke:Not necessarily, but we shouldn't necessarily just throw it out out of the window either. So that's kind of where I end up making my argument is not in this absolute sense
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:Because I don't think Paul says it, and the scripture doesn't say it that way. Right. But you don't have to make it absolute. All you have to say is, like, well, if we need a structure, we should take the one that we have we're given seriously and probably shouldn't stray too much from it.
Cameron:Or we at the very least, we could say, like, hey. If we need a structure, the structure that was good enough for Paul to pass on to his proteges
Luke:Right.
Cameron:Probably good enough for us.
Luke:Right. And I think that's a pretty strong argument that is ultimately just shy of being absolute. Right.
Cameron:Well and it and it also it would require us to have some kind of conversation about, like, okay. Well, if Paul's church structure given to Timothy and Titus, generally kind of seen in Acts as well Mhmm. Was good enough for them. How are we going how would we defend against someone saying, well, you know, like Paul's systematic of salvation, I think, was just for the Romans.
Luke:Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right.
Cameron:So at at what point at what point do we end the argument against universal contextuality? Do we end it at church structure, something that's just practical, or do we end it at the deep things of theology?
Luke:Right.
Cameron:So I think it just becomes a slippery slope when we say, you know, we we, you know, we can we'll take some things, but not not not at all.
Luke:Be careful to wash too much out, not to wash too much out in the waters of contextualization.
Cameron:Yeah. Yeah. So while we're hitting on, like, 15 minutes here
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:We kinda set maybe maybe set the stage a little bit for conversation next week about elders and deacons.
Luke:Mhmm. So we kind of like, maybe in summary, for those who managed to make it through this Oh my god. Kind of dry episode
Cameron:We were kind of everywhere at this point.
Luke:Is that generally for church structure, we think there are how many offices, Cameron? 2. 2. And we think that those are Elders and deacons. Elders and deacons.
Cameron:Or in There's not really a different term for deacon. No. But there is like It would be like elder or overseer or shepherd, which is be the same as, like, elder
Luke:Right.
Cameron:Presbyter
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Pastor even.
Luke:Yep. Well, what's the difference? We didn't mention this, but what is the qualifications for deacon and elder are oh so similar in scripture, except for one thing.
Cameron:Which is the responsibility and the ability to teach. Teach.
Luke:And so that, that qualification then dictates a little bit of what they how they function and what they do. Correct.
Cameron:Yeah. It's mostly believed, although it's not explicitly stated. Mhmm. The, like, the office of the deacon was was seen in the choosing of the 7 in Acts 6.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:Where Stephen, the first martyr of the church, so to speak, was the head deacon, the 1st and head deacon. Interestingly enough, he was killed for proclaiming the gospel. Yes. Yeah.
Luke:We're gonna have to think that. That's for next time. Yeah. Right. But yeah.
Luke:So that's at least our opinion on what biblically sourced offices of the church look like. Mhmm. Next time, we'll probably need to talk about, like, implementation of those offices in church. Yeah.
Cameron:And what the characteristics or qualities of them are. Yeah. So tune in next time if you care about that.
Luke:Or if you don't.
Cameron:If you don't. Yeah. You might get some you might get a a few free potshots here and there. Oh, you get to see what we're drinking.
Luke:That's true.
Cameron:So alright. Anyway, thanks for listening today. Thanks for sticking with that. Don't count us as the experts on this conversation for sure. We have a little bit of, expertise, but not, not at all.
Cameron:Appreciate listening, and we'll catch you.
