Obstacles in Marriage: Identifying and Overcoming Relational Hurdles

Luke: 00:05

Welcome to The Uncut Podcast. I'm pastor Luke.

Cameron: 00:09

And I'm pastor Cameron.

Luke: 00:10

And this is The Uncut Podcast where we have honest, uncut conversations about faith, life.

Cameron: 00:17

Ministry sponsored by Jocko again this week. Yep. I'm gonna see Jocko

Luke: 00:23

Yeah.

Cameron: 00:23

In just a few months. So I'm gonna tell him that I drink his energy drinks on my podcast all the time, and he should sponsor us.

Luke: 00:33

You're gonna tell him what the podcast is about?

Cameron: 00:35

I will. Yeah. Yep. Mhmm.

Luke: 00:40

Yeah. What is the podcast about today, Cameron?

Cameron: 00:42

Today, I thought we'd talk a little bit about marriage.

Luke: 00:45

Yeah. Mhmm.

Cameron: 00:48

Been studying a lot about marriage lately. Been thinking a lot about marriage lately. We have a marriage conference coming up here at Conduit. We do. The weekend of October 19th.

Luke: 01:01

Mhmm.

Cameron: 01:01

19th 20th. It's gonna be a Friday evening and then an all day Saturday.

Luke: 01:08

Yep. It's

Cameron: 01:09

gonna be I'm believing it to be a great, experience for married and engaged couples as well. Mhmm. So if that's something that interests you, mark it on your calendar now, and there'll be more details coming out, here as we get closer to October. But, anyway, I'm also studying a lot about marriage this week. Yeah.

Cameron: 01:32

Been thinking a lot about marriage this year.

Luke: 01:35

Mhmm.

Cameron: 01:36

Both because of the marriage conference and because this is, this year, Sherry and I only have been married 20 years Wow. Which feels to me like a milestone.

Luke: 01:52

Yeah. I

Cameron: 01:52

don't like, I know, like sometimes it's like the 25 year anniversary and the 50 year anniversary. Like my in laws just had their 50 year anniversary this weekend, this weekend, this past weekend, so we celebrated that with them. But, I think what we learn about marriage is also a lot about what we learn about ourselves. Mhmm. And, so I thought, you know, there's enough there's enough collective wisdom about marriage that we can talk about it, I think, or at least talk about perspectives.

Cameron: 02:28

And I think that what I really like is your perspective.

Luke: 02:35

Oh, yes.

Cameron: 02:36

Yeah. Because, you know, there is a, sometimes it's difficult for people who have been married a while to remember what it's been what it's like to be married a short period of time. And I would say you guys like, your this will be your 2nd anniversary coming up.

Luke: 03:03

Yep. Yep.

Cameron: 03:04

So 2 year anniversary this summer. And a

Luke: 03:06

half and some change. Yeah.

Cameron: 03:07

Yep. We're not this summer, but this fall. Yep. And so I think to similar to what we did when you came to work here

Luke: 03:20

Mhmm.

Cameron: 03:20

And we're like, I wanted to grab onto your newness of being here Yes. Yeah. To tell us tell us the things about Conduit and about the ministry that we had become blind to

Luke: 03:33

Mhmm.

Cameron: 03:35

Because of our proximity to it. I think that there's value also in asking you, like, some of your reflections on marriage in the first few years Yeah. For those who, you know, are maybe hoping to get married or are engaged to be married now or who are newly married and and, to just try and get a sense of like, all right, how do we talk about marriage? What are the things that we wanna talk about in marriage? What are the things that are important?

Cameron: 04:06

And, thought we would just jump off

Luke: 04:10

Yeah.

Cameron: 04:10

Into the deep end.

Luke: 04:11

Let's do it.

Cameron: 04:12

Jump off into the deep end there. I also, you know, like I it it's it, I do I've done a fair amount a fair bit, of both premarital counseling and marriage counseling Mhmm. Counseling for married couples. And kind of without fail, there are a few issues that are the issues.

Luke: 04:49

Yep.

Cameron: 04:51

Really is. Mhmm. So if you had to guess, at least from my experience in counseling with these couples, is what would be the issues that couples, married couples, face that that that motivate them to get an outside perspective? Motivate them to come and see me or come and see someone else who can help them process through their their things?

Luke: 05:22

Money, like money differences, sex, expectations around, like, roles inside of side of the family, like and like children, parenting, wouldn't have kids.

Cameron: 05:42

Mhmm. And

Luke: 05:47

yeah. Those would probably be like no. I'm honestly, I'm just kind of going off the list of what, like, I know you talk about in your primary counseling and also what I know is, like, included in every premarital counseling, like Yeah. Book. Yeah.

Luke: 06:03

Those those are typically the ones that, like, that people get hung up on.

Cameron: 06:13

Mhmm.

Luke: 06:14

Because they're kind of they're big and everybody has thoughts about them, but they maybe don't realize they have thoughts or opinions about them.

Cameron: 06:21

Yeah.

Luke: 06:22

And so, and the hard thing too is is that when you decide to get engaged, you almost immediately start making financial decisions together, whether or not you've actually talked through.

Cameron: 06:36

You have the same values about your resources.

Luke: 06:38

Exactly. And so you're immediately in this place of, oh, well, we're going to get a venue and a photographer and

Cameron: 06:44

we're going to,

Luke: 06:45

or are we going to put a down payment on a house and start making all these financial decisions together. And you may have not, you may have not been, you may have not talked through how to integrate your finances my money? Is it your my money? Is it your money?

Cameron: 07:09

Like, all those questions. I think what I found is that, like, While, like, the the conversation about finances is an important one Mhmm. I think it is even broader than finances. I think it comes down to, how how do I say it? It's like determining your like, the lifestyle that each individual values.

Luke: 07:42

Mhmm.

Cameron: 07:43

Yep. You know, because generally, everyone has the same, like, finances finance questions or questions about finances. If you just talk about, like, like, people are gonna have the right answers for finances. You can't spend more than you make. You need to save for retirement.

Cameron: 08:05

You Yeah. Should have a budget and, you know, everything like that. But what happens is that, like, I'm only, like, 50% a Dave Ramsey subscriber. But, you know, one of the things that he says and I agree with is that dealing with finances is like, 10% knowledge. Mhmm.

Cameron: 08:34

What to do. Yep. And 90% behavior. Yeah. The willingness to do Mhmm.

Cameron: 08:40

What you need to do with what you know. Yeah. And so when it comes to the conversation around finances with couples, it's more about like, okay. What type of lifestyle do each of you value? Mhmm.

Cameron: 09:00

And that usually gets into conversations around like there's, you know Yep. Someone's a spender or someone's a saver

Luke: 09:10

Yeah.

Cameron: 09:10

Or someone values this type of vacation or that type of vacation or someone values this type of home or that type of home Yep. Or someone values

Luke: 09:20

The flexibility to make incidental purchases.

Cameron: 09:23

Right. Yep. Right. Or someone values, you know, one of the one one of the partners staying at home

Luke: 09:31

Mhmm.

Cameron: 09:31

To raise a family or to take care or the other partner both they both wanna work. And like, so it then becomes like a what type of lifestyle rather than necessarily like how are you gonna build a budget together. Mhmm. It's part of it. Yep.

Cameron: 09:48

But the conversation is much bigger. It has a lot more, I guess, like, tributaries to it Mhmm. Than just dollars and cents.

Luke: 09:59

Yeah. It it certainly does.

Cameron: 10:01

Yeah. But I you know, you're you're right in a lot of ways about the things that, I feel like are tend to be, tend to be, categories that people wanna talk about or need to talk about. The expectations, like Yeah. Is is a big one. Yeah.

Cameron: 10:21

You know, like, we carry expectations into every relationship that we have. Mhmm. I have expectations for you, and you have expectations of me, both as friends and as colleagues and all of that. And, you have expectations for your wife, and she has expectations of you. And and I've got them for my wife and she has them for me.

Cameron: 10:40

And the question is not whether or not we have expectations of the other person in our relationship with them. It's whether or not those expectations are clear and have been communicated. Yeah. And why would you say it's important to clearly communicate our expectations that we have in any relationship with people?

Luke: 11:00

Well, I think it's because, like, that's on on on what what's the quote? Unspoken expectations are is a recipe for disappointment or something like that. Like or disappointment is is just unspoken expectations.

Cameron: 11:18

Like,

Luke: 11:20

It's funny, I had a professor who would occasionally, he was also a pastor in the community, and so he would occasionally do premarital counseling for some of the students and things like that, which like he's not He's more of a pre I've always thought of him as more of a preacher and less of a pastor or shepherd. But from someone who went through his premarital counseling, I heard that, like, one of the questions that he he would kind of bring this up in this kind of way of saying, so do you just squeeze the toothpaste or do you roll the toothpaste tube? Okay. And and his whole idea is just that, like, are you gonna share toothpaste tubes? Are you guys have gonna have your own toothpaste?

Luke: 12:11

Is it gonna bug you when you come in and like your wife is just kind of randomly squeeze the toothpaste tube and when you prefer to roll it or whatever? I think it's somewhat ridiculous that he goes down into that kind of granularity.

Cameron: 12:23

It definitely is. But there is some value in it.

Luke: 12:28

There's some value into it. And his point being is just simply is that, like, what are your expectations around toothpaste?

Cameron: 12:37

Well, there's things that see the the the and here's how I talk about it, is that we all kind of enter into marriage with a a picture in my our mind of what it's gonna be like. Yeah. How we're gonna live together, how we're gonna spend our time, what our home is gonna be like. Mhmm. All of that.

Cameron: 12:58

And we almost always create the idyllic image. Of course. Why would why would we create the disappointing image? So we almost always create the idyllic image and then if you don't have someone that helps you express those expectations pre marriage, you carry those in with you.

Luke: 13:18

Mhmm.

Cameron: 13:20

And then what happens? Well, she rolls the toothpaste instead of squeezes it. And the idyllic image of what it meant to live together in crumbling down. Yeah. Holy matrimony comes crumbling down.

Cameron: 13:35

The whole house of cards falls on the toothpaste.

Luke: 13:37

Yeah.

Cameron: 13:38

And yeah. And then you're left either having to say something

Luke: 13:43

Mhmm.

Cameron: 13:45

Or you don't say anything because realize how silly it is. But that doesn't eliminate that thing that's in your heart, that expectation that's in your heart. Mhmm. And so unspoken expectations that then get broken Mhmm. By the people we love Yep.

Cameron: 14:05

And then we don't communicate and compromise on our expectations for the other Yep. End up becoming seeds of resentment Yes. That lead to roots of bitterness. Yep. And so when we have things that we don't communicate as expectations and then they get broken Mhmm.

Cameron: 14:28

It creates gaps. Yeah. And those gaps get filled with with resentment and bitterness, which is never the place that we want our our, you know, those the most intimate of our relationships to be.

Luke: 14:40

Yeah. Well, I heard it said that resentment if you notice resentment in yourself, it's probably because they are behaving in a way in which you do not feel permission to behave yourself. And I've found that to be, it's not like that's not the root of all resentment, but it's a root of a lot of it. I think particularly for couples, if one of us has a value of, well, say, we'll stick with the money one, for example, say we're not allowed to make any purchases above $100 without, like, you know, or as far as, like, preapproved purchases. Right?

Luke: 15:19

Yeah. You know, non budgeted, You can make it a budget a non budgeted expense as long as it's under $100 or something like that. Anything above that, oh, I would never I would never purchase something that's 150, 200, $300 without first making sure my wife is okay with it. But then if she were to, to to not hold that rule or expectation that's invisible inside of my head, and then she goes and does does that, resentment could come out of it. And you'd be like, oh, so mad that she bought that thing.

Cameron: 15:51

Mhmm.

Luke: 15:51

And you're angry. Why? Because she behaved in a way that you felt you couldn't or shouldn't because of certain value or conviction you held. And then you're in that place of what do you do? Do you communicate it?

Luke: 16:07

Do you just roll over it? Do you not say anything? Does it build into bitterness over time? Yep. And that's that's where it is.

Luke: 16:15

And it's because and this is one of the things. This is not wisdom from me. This I've heard this from other places, I think. But that, like, it's easy, I think, particularly in, like, the quote unquote honeymoon stages to just be like, oh, it's not a big deal. Right?

Luke: 16:37

But you're just getting close to your 20 year, I mean, a year and a half. Is the thing that is not a big deal a year and a half in going to be a how big of a deal is it gonna be 20 years in?

Cameron: 16:51

Yeah. It it it's it won't be the thing anymore.

Luke: 16:55

Mhmm.

Cameron: 16:56

But it will be the thing. It will be the seed that created the root Mhmm. That grew the tree that now is shading the entire marriage. Right. You know?

Cameron: 17:08

And there's a 1,000 other things in the branches of that tree.

Luke: 17:11

Yep.

Cameron: 17:12

Now and it really is not even about that thing anymore. No. It's about, it comes down to probably the main thing, the main thing ish the main thing ish with all all of healthy marriages is the ability to effectively and healthily communicate. Yeah. So, so it it it becomes like if we can't communicate how an expectation is not met in our heart and it just sits there

Luke: 17:54

Mhmm.

Cameron: 17:55

Then there can never be any, like it can only turn into resentment. Yeah. It can only turn into bitterness. But we have to be willing to we have to be willing to say something. Mhmm.

Cameron: 18:08

And that that that talk has to has to, at some point, be in a healthy way because we can communicate and communicate very aggressively Mhmm. Very, abusively, very, very poorly. Very like we can communicate. We can communicate with our non communication. Yeah.

Cameron: 18:34

You know? Right. The silent treatment is communication. You know? Yeah.

Cameron: 18:40

And so, you know, the the thing about the the whole question that I I started with is that you're right. All of those issues do usually come up. It's usually I start really every marriage counseling session and premarital session with kind of getting a sense of like, really it's more premarital than not, but is to get a sense of 1, like what is a person's view on marriage?

Luke: 19:18

Mhmm.

Cameron: 19:19

Like, what what are the things that they are carrying into this relationship?

Luke: 19:24

Yep.

Cameron: 19:27

That is that will inform their perspective on marriage. Yep. And that's usually like a tell me the marriages that you saw growing up. Yeah. Your parents felt and how you and and how you felt about them.

Cameron: 19:43

Yeah. How they affected you, both negative and positive. Because not everyone has just negative views of marriage. Some people have super, super positive

Luke: 19:54

Yeah.

Cameron: 19:54

Examples of marriage in their life, and they wanna take those examples and carry the lessons that they've learned into their own marriage. And some people are, like, the complete opposite, and most people are a little bit of both. Not everyone's marriage not everyone's parents' marriages is the marriage that they talk about. Sometimes it's their grandparents. Sometimes it's their friends or nate and uncle or an older sibling or whatever.

Cameron: 20:19

But what's your like, what kind of stuff are you bringing into your perspective on marriage? Like, okay, so let's now to get separately as 2 individual people, let's create let's create some let's describe write it writing it down. Let's describe our view of an idyllic marriage. Mhmm. The marriage that we want to create, the marriage that's in our head, the marriage that we've dreamed of, the marriage of, you know, like, that we've always wanted, avoiding the things that we saw growing up that we don't want, adding in the things that we do want.

Cameron: 20:57

Mhmm. Right? And let's do it around these general categories. Yep. Let's do it around household responsibilities and kind of like how we're gonna do life together.

Cameron: 21:08

The practicalities. Mhmm. Let's do it around life lifestyle and value, like this value of our lifestyle and finances and that kind of stuff. Let's describe how we're gonna think about our sexual relationship, the frequency, what is allowed, what's not allowed,

Luke: 21:27

who

Cameron: 21:27

we're gonna talk to about it, who we're not gonna talk to about it, you know, all of those things, family of origin type of things. How are we each gonna interact with our families now that we're married? Yeah. Right. And how we're as individuals, how are we gonna, like, interact with our families once we're married?

Luke: 21:45

Right. We're gonna allow the the, like, the classic mother-in-law dynamics to play out? Are we Right. Whose family are we going to for Thanksgiving and Christmas? Like, all of those things.

Cameron: 21:58

Yep. Mhmm. Which ends up being you usually a pretty big one for people.

Luke: 22:04

Yeah.

Cameron: 22:07

And then, what was the last one? Oh, obviously, like like faith, spirituality.

Luke: 22:14

Mhmm.

Cameron: 22:14

Like, how are we gonna live together in, you know, integrating our Right. Individual walks with Jesus. And so okay. Then now make a list of, as far as those categories are concerned, all of the idyllic things that you can imagine about what your marriage is gonna be. Mhmm.

Cameron: 22:32

Don't share them with each other. So you make them separately. Mhmm. Next session, we're gonna come in together, and I want to watch the dynamic of you communicating your heart to the other. Mhmm.

Cameron: 22:45

So you watch them communicate it. Alright? And then you give the other person the opportunity to respond to

Luke: 22:54

Mhmm.

Cameron: 22:55

What has been said.

Luke: 22:57

Right.

Cameron: 22:57

And so the whole of the exercise is 1, is the ability to articulate what I want, the ability of the other to hear what I've said, to interpret it in to interpret it inside their own head and say it back, so to interact with it. Because sometimes, the expectations that one person has of a marriage is are unrealistic. Right. Not everything that's idyllic is reality.

Luke: 23:30

Right.

Cameron: 23:32

Kind of a classic example would be someone who's like who write writes on the expectation. I have an expectation that we are gonna have sex 7 times a week Right. While we're married.

Luke: 23:42

Unrealistic for most people.

Cameron: 23:45

For most people. Right? Unless both people are saying, like, that's the reality. That's what we will like That's what you want. Oh, okay.

Cameron: 23:51

Good for you. Right. But it's probably it's probably unrealistic.

Luke: 23:57

It's on the it's on one side of the bell curve.

Cameron: 23:59

Correct.

Luke: 23:59

Right? It's not the it's not the average.

Cameron: 24:01

Right. So what do we do now as the person who didn't write that, who thinks, oh my gosh, I can't do like I can't live up to that expectation.

Luke: 24:09

Right.

Cameron: 24:09

What do we do? Do we hold those thoughts in our in our heart in fear?

Luke: 24:15

Or do we

Cameron: 24:15

or do we, or do we say, I think that's an unrealistic expectation. Can we find some kind of compromise? Mhmm. Right. And it's in those moments where we learn to speak and we find the we we we work together to find the compromise or I learn why the other person feels like 7 days a week is important to them.

Luke: 24:37

Right.

Cameron: 24:38

So so now I become I get to become curious about why would they say why would that be some tell me why that's important to you. Right. And that whole conversation brings just like a flood of information.

Luke: 24:54

Yeah. Well, that's the thing is that it's it's rarely, like you said, it's rarely the thing. Mhmm. Right? Like, if it's I feel like like sex is a big one, and sex is always something other than just sex, usually.

Luke: 25:16

There's usually layers to it. Right? It's not just about the thing itself. There's emotional components to

Cameron: 25:24

our sexuality that some of us are aware of.

Luke: 25:24

Some of us are sexuality that some of us are aware of, some of us are completely oblivious to, but they're they're there. Mhmm. And they impact the thoughts we have about that. And the same goes to just about everything. Right?

Luke: 25:39

There's these values and these desires or needs, or there's a story. Like, well, my expectation is that, I don't know, dinner's on the table every single night. Mhmm. But my expectation is also that I will be home every night for dinner.

Cameron: 25:57

Exactly.

Luke: 25:57

Right. Well, what's the story behind that?

Cameron: 25:59

Right.

Luke: 26:00

Well, my dad never came home and he wasn't home every night. Right. And like and my mom, you know, was, you know, whatever. Like, there's some sort of story behind that as to why that's formulated as an expectation. It's got to do with family of origin or a family they saw, and they're like, my family wasn't like that, but I saw a family like that, and I saw how connected they were.

Luke: 26:24

And so now I've I've tied that to the husband comes home every day, and they have meal together, the wife is cooked. And that's I want not just that, I want what that results in in my mind as well. And so when you get to that, you're like, oh, well, we can achieve that a number of different ways. And it doesn't have to be that I cook a meal for us every single night.

Cameron: 26:47

Yep.

Luke: 26:48

And all of a sudden, the field of play is open much wider than it was before.

Cameron: 26:53

Correct. Correct. It's almost never the thing that's the thing.

Luke: 26:58

Right.

Cameron: 26:58

There's something behind it. And sometimes it's a big thing. Sometimes it's a relatively small thing.

Luke: 27:03

Yep.

Cameron: 27:03

But the goal there is not even really necessarily to, like, get all of the expectations out in the open right then and there. The goal is to help them see how to communicate regularly.

Luke: 27:21

Mhmm.

Cameron: 27:22

How to do that.

Luke: 27:23

So I'll share this one because this, I shared this in a sermon. So this one's already been been, it's

Cameron: 27:29

already been. It's already out on the internet.

Luke: 27:31

It's already out on the internet. But, like, this is just it's a super silly example. But, you know, we've got, like, mats in the bathroom. Right? And, like, I like, there's this mat between our toilet kind of faces the faces the the the shower and there's this square mat and I'm like, well, that mat is for when you get out of the shower and you're drying off.

Luke: 27:55

And so it needs to be close to the shower so that when you get up and every time I'd go into the bathroom, I kinda noticed that, oh, it kind of scooched over closer to the toilet. And so I'd kinda scooch it back. Well, that went on for about over a year. And then finally my wife said, Luke, are we gonna talk about the fact that you keep moving the stupid mat in the bathroom? And I was like, what are you talking about?

Luke: 28:18

You keep moving.

Cameron: 28:21

And then

Luke: 28:21

she was just like, and I had no I had no idea that there was this, like, silent war between us over where this map belonged to the bathroom. And she was like, I thought you just weren't saying anything. I was like, I didn't know I wasn't or I didn't know that you weren't. Mhmm. We were just like

Cameron: 28:38

Yeah.

Luke: 28:38

And so it was immediately humorous because we were both just like, oh. So now it's equidistant.

Cameron: 28:49

See the big one.

Luke: 28:50

Just need a big one or yeah. But anyways, like, you just gotta you gotta talk about it though. Yeah. And how and have a way to talk about it because Right.

Cameron: 29:02

Because you make a sum when you when you don't talk, do you make assumptions about what the other person is

Luke: 29:07

Right.

Cameron: 29:08

Their their their motivations, their decisions.

Luke: 29:11

Right.

Cameron: 29:12

And we almost never it's very rare that we make assumptions in the best direction. No. We almost always make assumptions in the worst. We create a negative narrative in our mind when we make assumptions, not a positive one. Right.

Luke: 29:28

We become mind readers.

Cameron: 29:29

Right.

Luke: 29:30

But we're really bad at it

Cameron: 29:32

because we actually can't read people's minds. Correct. So the act of communication just actually it it removes assumption from the equation and allows us to actually engage with reality, which is usually a lot more gentle and benign Right. Than we originally thought it was.

Luke: 29:51

Yep. So Yeah. Because I just thought the mat kept moving.

Cameron: 29:59

Yeah. I mean, I've shared a similar story, from our 1st year of marriage about how, you know, one of Sherry's kind of unspoken, expectations of me. And it was like, I remember as being like our first kind of fight Mhmm. As a married couple. We don't really fight.

Cameron: 30:21

We don't fight. Our first disagreement as a married couple was kind of the unspoken expectation that I would take the garbage out when it was full Yep. Without being asked.

Luke: 30:34

We had the same we had the same thing.

Cameron: 30:36

Yeah. Without being asked.

Luke: 30:37

Yep.

Cameron: 30:37

I would just notice that it was full and take it out without being asked. Mhmm. I have no problem taking the garbage out. I like, totally fine with me. I don't, like, not an issue at all.

Cameron: 30:49

Yep. My issue with what was just like a, you know, like, okay. Well, if you want me to take the garbage out and I haven't yet, all you need to do is say, could you please take the garbage out? Mhmm. But she wanted me to take it out before it was before she had to ask.

Luke: 31:10

Mhmm.

Cameron: 31:11

She wanted me to notice. Yep. I think what it comes down to is, like, what what is what is the implicit expectation underneath all of that

Luke: 31:19

Yeah.

Cameron: 31:19

Is that she wanted me to have, like, some perceptive intentionality Mhmm. About what needed done in the house, the household chores

Luke: 31:29

Mhmm.

Cameron: 31:29

The things that needed done for cleaning and maintenance and upkeep and stuff like that. And to take an active role in taking care of those things, without being because what she because her ultimately, her heart behind that is that she has always wanted to maintain a lot of distance from being a, what she calls, a nagging wife. Mhmm.

Luke: 32:03

And

Cameron: 32:03

she didn't wanna feel like she was nagging by saying by, like, having to tell me Yeah. An adult, you know, to take the garbage out.

Luke: 32:14

Mhmm.

Cameron: 32:16

So all of that kind of gets unraveled now by the conversation Yeah. Of just like, hey, here's what I expected you to do. Yep. And so, yeah, we had a little a little tiff about it. But, you know, all in all, our first, man, our first couple years of marriage were just so great.

Cameron: 32:43

I mean, I'm I'm serious. They just they were. I feel really grateful for that because life was I don't know. I look back on it and I'm like, I know we were really, really stressed. Mhmm.

Cameron: 33:01

And I know that we had felt like we had a lot on our plate. Mhmm. And we had a lot of it was hard financially. I was in seminary. Mhmm.

Cameron: 33:13

She was

Luke: 33:13

making minimum wage

Cameron: 33:13

as a veterinary technician. I was working small little apartment above a garage. Small little apartment above a garage, and, you know, we scraped by financially. We ate so much spaghetti and hamburger helper, you know, that 1st year, You know, regular dinners over at the in laws so that we didn't have to buy groceries. It was just hard.

Cameron: 33:49

It was just really hard, but it was also really just a simple a simple life. Yeah. You know, no kids. No really like, no what I would call like jobs of significant consequence. Like we both had jobs and they were important and we did like did a good job, but like like, now Sherry's job is as a mom, that's pretty significant.

Cameron: 34:19

Mhmm. And obviously, I'm a pastor. I feel like that's pretty significant too. Yep. And so life is just much, much, much more complicated now.

Cameron: 34:29

And I look back on it and I'm like, wow. The simplicity of what we had then was so beautiful and I can't say that I would go back and, like, not have what we have now, but it's just like life changes so quickly and perspective change so quickly. Mhmm. And what's important changes so quickly, and what you think is important one day, in the next won't be. And there's just a beauty in doing life like that together with someone else.

Cameron: 35:10

Yeah. And, so I'm really grateful for it. But I do remember, I think it was we just it was hard back then.

Luke: 35:21

Yeah.

Cameron: 35:22

But not in comparison to what we are doing now.

Luke: 35:25

Mhmm.

Cameron: 35:26

But it's like, I think every stage

Luke: 35:29

Presents its own Challenges. Challenges.

Cameron: 35:32

Right.

Luke: 35:32

And, like yeah. And, you know, each generation has their own, like, I feel like like stereotypes and patterns to kind of like overcome.

Cameron: 35:45

Yep.

Luke: 35:46

Right? Like, I you know, I was talk actually, it was interesting. I was talking with one of my brothers the other day, and he pointed out, and it's something I also have pretty low tolerance for is, like, the kind of what do you call it? Like, the like, ragging on one's spouse. Mhmm.

Luke: 36:11

Like, behind their back and kind of like a, old, the old ball and chain. Like, woah. Like, she's just, you know, whatever. He was just like, yeah. I've got, like, 0 tolerance

Cameron: 36:22

for it.

Luke: 36:22

I was like, yeah. Me too. Like, you yep. Like, wanna get me kind of frustrated and angry? Like Mhmm.

Luke: 36:29

Start talking like that, And like, you'll find our conversation stops pretty quick because Yeah. It's not gonna tolerate it. And I think that's maybe like an older generation, generations above me. That's kind of a pattern. But like the younger generation, my generation's got like more, you know, has kind of different, like, different unhealthy, like, stereotypes that kind of get made fun of.

Luke: 36:56

Right? They always show up in comedy, but they, but they're but they can be true. Right. The caricatures. The caricature.

Cameron: 37:06

So there's truth. There is truth there, but the truth gets magnified to become negative. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Luke: 37:12

There was this there was this real that was going around, and it was essentially it was like the wife was like the husband's like, oh, I'm married to my wife. And like, and that means and then, and then she would interrupt him and she would like. So essentially, anytime the husband would go to say something in this, like, joke, we'd kind of interrupt him, and the wife's opinion kind of ruled. And you could it was really interesting to see all the comments because some people were like, that's so true. That's exactly how me and my husband are.

Luke: 37:45

And then other people like, this is exactly how me and my wife are, and it's killing me. Right. Like like, it's this, like, oh, this is, like, just how it is. Like, and it's just kinda funny, but then, oh, no, that's not actually helpful. Like, just because it's the reverse of what's maybe happened traditionally or historically, doesn't mean it's good either.

Cameron: 38:08

Right. Right. You know, I I agree. I think that there's a there's there's cultural ways that people perceive or characterize the husband and how they characterize the wife, culture, pop culture, or whatever. And there's, like, obviously, there's examples on the spectrum of those being true.

Cameron: 38:29

It's like the you see it as, like, the knucklehead husband who who's dumb and stupid.

Luke: 38:34

Homer Simpson.

Cameron: 38:34

Yeah. Can't get anything right.

Luke: 38:36

King of the hell. Yeah.

Cameron: 38:37

And then you see on the other side, it's the nagging wife. She's always, like, on her husband's case and like

Luke: 38:43

Everybody loves Raymond.

Cameron: 38:44

Yes. Right.

Luke: 38:45

Yep.

Cameron: 38:47

And I think I that's not honoring Mhmm. To, it's just an unhonoring position to be in to kind of abide by or uphold those characterizations as being true.

Luke: 39:14

Yeah.

Cameron: 39:16

Outside of your willingness to, if they exist in your life or in your marriage, to communicate them to your spouse so that you can work

Luke: 39:30

Yeah.

Cameron: 39:30

Through it. You know? Mhmm. Because our guy can guys be boneheads, Homer Simpson? Of course, they can.

Luke: 39:38

Sure.

Cameron: 39:38

Can wives be nagging and everyone loves Raymond wife? Like, yes. Of course, they can. But we can we all have the capacity and the the tendency to do those things and to be like that. But, you know, telling everyone that my wife is nagging or telling everyone that my husband is an idiot is not gonna solve the problem.

Cameron: 40:03

No. It's just gonna make it much it's actually just gonna make it worse.

Luke: 40:06

Right. Because then we create a narrative for the other person to continue to live in.

Cameron: 40:11

Right. And it's just it's it's just dishonoring

Luke: 40:13

Mhmm.

Cameron: 40:14

As well. It doesn't honor the person as your partner. Yeah. You know, as like Paul says in Ephesians chapter 5 that, like, you, husbands love your wives like you love your own bodies. You know, like they are part of you.

Cameron: 40:32

You are part of them. Like, cannot be separated from one another. That the the 2 shall become 1 flesh. Mhmm. So anything that you wouldn't want to be said about you or you wouldn't say about yourself.

Cameron: 40:47

Right? Right. Be careful about how we say that about our spouses. Yeah. So I could really talk about marriage a lot.

Cameron: 41:01

I feel like all day.

Luke: 41:03

Mhmm. I was gonna kinda ask you. I was like, do you feel like we kinda talked about some cultural stereotypes. Do you feel like Christian stereotypes? Like, do you feel like there are ways in which Christians have talked about or portrayed or simplified marriage in a characterized way that's unhelpful?

Cameron: 41:24

Yes. I think that there has been an overemphasis on in the Christian culture, an overemphasis on wives submitting to husbands and an underemphasis on submitting to one another out of reverence for the Lord. Mhmm. Just and and the the issue I think is that the Bible does talk clearly about wives submitting to husbands and that our culture has an understanding of what submission means.

Luke: 42:11

Right.

Cameron: 42:13

And our general understanding of what that means is less than. Yep. Not as important as unworthy of. Yeah. That's not a biblical understanding of submission, which is more about, a a willful position that a person takes.

Cameron: 42:34

It was a really came out of a military term. It was a like a willful volunteerism, so to speak, of the position that one took in relationship to to one another Mhmm. In relationship to another. But it's been used in a way to denote worth Mhmm. Rather than role.

Cameron: 42:57

Yeah. So I think that's a characterization that or that's a, like, a a it well, I I have maybe I should finish all those thoughts is, like and so it can sometimes come, it can sometimes sometimes come to the point where Christian husbands don't believe that they have to listen to their wives or shouldn't listen to there's not wisdom in listening to their wives that there's not any place for them to

Luke: 43:30

because then they they just say, well, you're not submitting to me by not just letting me make the decision I want.

Cameron: 43:35

Correct. Right. Right. They're not they're they're misunderstanding, which is a their their misunderstanding how their submission to Christ

Luke: 43:51

Mhmm.

Cameron: 43:52

Affects how they show up in their marriage. Mhmm. And so I think that's one is the whole idea of mutually submitting, of sacrificing and serving the other.

Luke: 44:12

Mhmm.

Cameron: 44:16

What else would I say that the I don't know. I think that's a really good question. I don't know that I've ever really thought about it too too much.

Luke: 44:32

Yeah.

Cameron: 44:33

But I think it's really it's a question that I should think about more.

Luke: 44:37

I think the one for me, the like, one of the one of the things is that, like, it not this was something I discovered in previous relationships prior to meeting my wife was I was trying to figure out like some relationship dynamics that were happening in some of my dating relationships. And I ran across, because I remember my parents reading the book and it being talked about like that book, Love and Respect. Right. This idea that men need respect, women need love. Mhmm.

Luke: 45:07

And I read it, and I felt so disoriented as I read it, because I primarily identified with what they considered to be feminine needs. It's like, no, that's I actually feel like I I lack and need more of what they classically say the woman wants and needs out of a relationship versus what the man wants. And it was and it's specifically like it's a Christian authors, Christian ministry and book. And and I've talked to other people too who have also been like, yeah, sometimes it's like the man feels like he needs respect and honor or whatever. Like, it's a need, but it's not exclusive to the man or even necessarily the predominant one.

Cameron: 46:02

Right. And so I think As a universal quality.

Luke: 46:05

As a universal quality. And so I was like, no, like there's some sometimes that's the dynamic. Right. Because they were kind of playing into this, like what felt like this stereotypical, you know, the wife always wants closeness and affection and the husband always wants respect. And I was like, no, I don't think that that's necessarily always true.

Luke: 46:26

I don't think that's like sometimes that's maybe the dynamic, but I kinda want both. Right.

Cameron: 46:32

You know? You know?

Luke: 46:34

And it's not really a prioritization of the other.

Cameron: 46:37

Yeah. And I'm I'm assuming my wife doesn't want me to disrespect disrespect her. No. I'm sure she wants respect as well. Right.

Luke: 46:43

Yeah. And then like other things about like, like the 5 love languages

Cameron: 46:50

as

Luke: 46:50

being like a, an oversimplified formula for, like, affection Yep. And care Or, or like one that I was really, you know, I was really kind of passionate about when I was single, was just that, like, you know, treating marriage as this peak Christian maturity thing. Like you're not gonna be a mature Christian until you get married and kind of it's overemphasis.

Cameron: 47:17

Or it is the goal of every Christian individual is to get married.

Luke: 47:21

Is to get married. And so some of those are the things that kind of like come to my mind in that, like where we kind of take some of the stereotypes of the world and we kind of sprinkle Christian fairy dust on them.

Cameron: 47:35

Mhmm.

Luke: 47:36

And then we make them worse by, like, making them sacrosanct.

Cameron: 47:39

Yeah. Yeah. So. I agree. As you were talking before you said the 5 level languages, I come to my come to my mind being like, man, I remember I don't hear as much about them anymore.

Luke: 47:52

Yeah. But

Cameron: 47:53

I remember when I was in, like, high school and college, that was like the way in which you determined who your mate was going to be. Mhmm. Was what what of the 5 love languages do they identify with? And, like, it became it, like, almost became canonical in a Christian circle to understand the 5 love languages clearly. Mhmm.

Cameron: 48:23

And it's not that they're wrong. It's not that they're bad. It's just that it's a very myopic view of what it means to give and receive love.

Luke: 48:31

Yeah.

Cameron: 48:34

And, you know, and what I found is, like, if I had to if if someone were to ask me what my love language was when I was first married or when I was in college or something like that, I would have had one answer. If it's like, what is it now, 20 years later, it'd be different for sure. Mhmm. Very different. Yep.

Cameron: 48:56

And so I think those those things do even those thing types of things can change

Luke: 49:01

Yeah.

Cameron: 49:01

Over time.

Luke: 49:02

Mhmm.

Cameron: 49:03

Yeah. You wanna say anything else today?

Luke: 49:08

No. I think that's I think we've given people enough to think about. Okay.

Cameron: 49:13

Like I said, at the beginning of the podcast, we have a marriage conference coming up in October. Love for you to take part in it if you're engaged or married. You have any questions, perspectives about marriage, like us maybe to talk about in future episodes of the podcast, we'd love to hear those. Love to, love to, you know, take a take a swing at them. Yep.

Cameron: 49:40

So, if you're a member of Conduit or maybe if you're not a member of Conduit, maybe watch, services online or anything like that. We have a sermon series coming up in, I think, 3 weeks from now Yep. Called Asking for a Friend, which is, basically a sermon series that is made up of your questions that you have. Whether that would be about faith or a certain scripture or something like that. So you can ask them by texting them to our line here, our podcast line, 716-2010.

Cameron: 50:15

5. 507. 0507. And, we will add those to the list, and those that we don't get to on a Sunday morning, we we may try to hit here, may try to hit on Wednesday evening bible study, or we'll we'll see what we see what kind of questions we get. And I'm not I'm not promising anyone that we're gonna deal with.

Luke: 50:37

All of your questions.

Cameron: 50:38

Any every question that everyone asks in some environment. Yep. Not gonna do that. Not not gonna make that promise, but send us over some questions. Let's see, let's see what we can learn for some, sermons coming on.

Cameron: 50:54

Thanks for listening, and, we'll catch you in the next one.