Behind the Pulpit: What goes into preparing a sermon
Welcome to the uncut podcast. I'm pastor Luke.
Cameron:I am pastor Cameron.
Luke:And this is the uncut podcast where we have honest and uncut conversations about faith, life, ministry. Welcome back, Cameron. Welcome back, Luke. We have been gone for Where have you been, Luke? Where have I been?
Luke:Where have I not been is the better question.
Cameron:It really is true.
Luke:Which we could simply answer by saying we've not been in this room.
Cameron:Yes. We've been everywhere else.
Luke:We've been everywhere else.
Cameron:We have not stopped doing ministry. We have not stopped leading the church or our families. But sometimes, something's gotta give Yep. Someplace. And for us, that someplace was the podcast for a few weeks.
Cameron:Mhmm. That's okay. Yeah. I'm okay with it.
Luke:Yeah. It was definitely it wasn't like planned. It was just like a series of, like, personal, family, professional, like
Cameron:Lemony Snicket's series of unfortunate events. Very much.
Luke:It's just, like, we were we connect on a Monday, and we're like, are we gonna be able to record this week? And we're like, well, we could have done it 20 minutes ago, but that was the only window we had or something like that.
Cameron:Right. Right. So we did our best. We did our best to, you know, just keep things moving on the ministry front and
Luke:Yep.
Cameron:Had some good things happen lately and
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Some good movement forward. And, I'm curious, we haven't really had this conversation off camera, so we can have it maybe on camera k. Is to how you are, like, how are you feeling about, like, the ministry load and, like, the personal load
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Of 2 services?
Luke:Yeah. It's like if you aren't used to doing 2 services back to back. Mhmm. And then we don't have, like we don't have a ton of lead time between our 2 services. So by the time first service is over at not at 10 starts at 9, ends at 10 Mhmm.
Luke:20, 10:30. Our next service starts in a half hour, 40 minutes. And then we are not, you know, free of obligation in between that time either. So we've got, like, our next little, which is not a big thing. You
Cameron:know, we're gonna
Luke:be at our huddle at, like, 10:35. So, I think the other week, I realized that if you're the person who's preaching, how much time you just end up spending on your feet. Yep. And I was like, I need better inserts in my shoes. Mhmm.
Luke:If I'm kinda I really like those look of those shoes, but they were not as comfortable as I think they need to be if I'm gonna be standing pretty much the entire time. Mhmm. I think I don't know. It's it's not like it's not that it's causing much more work outside of Sunday. Like, I don't I don't it's not really like, it's not that, like, my week is suddenly ballooned because of that.
Luke:I
Cameron:do feel like that maybe there's a sliver more mental work
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:To to make sure logistics for the morning are worked out, but that a lot of that doesn't fall on you and I. No. A lot of that is Yeah. Other staff. Yeah.
Cameron:But but you're right. Like, in the preparation for the week, it doesn't change it.
Luke:So it's it's really just that, like, preaching it twice. And what was it that IIII don't know. I preached something. It It was 1 of the sermons I gave or even just the the sermon I did 2 weeks 2 weeks ago now?
Cameron:On Doubt? On Doubt Mhmm.
Luke:Was just like a heavy Sunday personally, and then to preach kind of, not the weightiest sermon, but like it, you know, it can really kind of something that weighs heavy on people. And I was just like, okay. Here we go. Like, charge up that hill, like, again. So it was kind of feel like, feeling a little bit of out of emotional breath and then having to turn around and do it again.
Luke:But I don't know that I'm you know, so it is more I think it's more emotional and mental work the day of. But I don't know that it's like I'm like, oh, my gosh, that's unsustainable. I think it's at a place where I'm like, I just kind of got to get used to this a little bit, find my rhythm of like, how much do I tweak and change my sermon between, between services. Mhmm. Because, you know, I'll kind of, like and how much is even reasonable, you know, and how much is, like, intentional and unintentional on that.
Luke:And so, yeah, it's I think it's okay. I think it's it feels it's felt like a a lot the last couple of times, but it's not the I have confidence that, someone described it to me as, like, when you're new to playing, like, a sport or a game, like, everything feels like it's just going so fast, because you're, like, trying to process all the information at all at once. And as you kind of get into it, the game slows down and you start to process it. And so I feel like this is 1 of those scenarios where I'm like, it feels like there's just a lot, but I think the more I'm in it, the more we're in it. It'll kind of slow down and it won't feel quite so big on a Sunday afternoon once we're done.
Cameron:Yeah. I mean, there is just still a newness to it that is well, we've been doing it for when did we start it? Beginning of May?
Luke:Beginning of May. 1st week in May.
Cameron:Yeah. So we're just, like, 2 months into it. Yeah. Not even yet. So there is still a newness to it Mhmm.
Cameron:That
Luke:But what about you? You've had more reps on preaching through it so far. I've preached a handful of times with this new service structure, but you've done the majority so far.
Cameron:I'm definitely more tired at the end of the day. Mhmm. I have like, I've not tried to, like, manage my energy
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:In the first service so that I have something left for the second. Right. I just don't I didn't feel like that was necessary or anything like that. I just, you know, just send it and Yep. It'd be fine.
Cameron:I have recognized that some bit of, like, self care in between services is definitely necessary for me. Yeah. I need to get a loan even if it's just for, like, 2 or 3 minutes
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:In between services. It's helpful for me to eat something. Yep. I'm almost always really hungry even if I eat a big breakfast in the morning Yep. You know, before I come in for first service.
Cameron:So there is a little bit more fatigue, and I feel like a little bit more a greater necessity to, like, check-in with myself physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually in between sermons. Yeah. But all in all, I I feel like, you know, it's been a positive experience, and I don't feel I don't feel particularly like it was a bad decision or that there was a, like, a a really big blind spot that we had that is glaring
Luke:No.
Cameron:At us now. So all in all, like, I think
Luke:that's good. That food thing, though, is real.
Cameron:It is real.
Luke:I'm like, I sometimes sometimes it was kind of a toss-up as to whether or not I used to eat on Sundays because sometimes I don't like to eat before I, like, preach. Mhmm. Just kind of like, I just feel more comfortable on an empty stomach for some reason. Mhmm. But I cannot do that with 2 services because I'm like, I'm ready.
Cameron:Because it's 1 o'clock then.
Luke:Yeah. And then I And you haven't eaten. And I'm just like, right. Yeah. I'm definitely not feeling holy at that point.
Luke:I think the other thing I was thinking about was, I think somebody came up to me to have a conversation with me after 1 of the services this last Sunday. And I was sitting here and I was thinking, what did we talk about? I just couldn't remember that whole conversation. Or if we'd had that conversation, I was like, did we actually chat? I don't remember.
Luke:And, like, I'm thinking that I might have to and I don't know that this is new to having 2 services, but it might be made worse by having 2 services. I'm like, I think I'm gonna have to come up with, like, a method of, like, if someone like is coming up to talk to me about something that's gonna require follow-up or action outside of Sunday service, I'm gonna have to start saying, can you email me?
Cameron:That's what I do.
Luke:Or something. Because like, if someone comes up to me, says something to me, it is just gonna go straight out of my brain.
Cameron:I tell people when they come up to me, Sunday morning and they're and we're talking about something important
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:In in particular, something important that I need to remember
Luke:Right.
Cameron:I've just gotten in the habit of being honest with them, saying, like, Sunday mornings are a little bit, in some ways, a a blur to me Mhmm. When I try to sort out the details at the end of the day. Yep. And so this but this conversation is really important to me Mhmm. And I don't want to drop this ball.
Cameron:Could you please text me?
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Because some sometimes even in in emails, things get lost. Right?
Luke:That's true.
Cameron:But they don't typically on the phone. Right? Could you please text me and remind me? Even text me right now.
Luke:Yeah. Right. Just so that there's a note
Cameron:So then I have the notification. I won't take the notification off, and then I'll, like, I'm I'm able to deal with it. And and I will get back to this, like, tomorrow or Tuesday or something like that. Yeah. Because that's been, like, I I don't want to I really don't wanna drop the ball on someone or with the situation.
Cameron:Yeah. And it's never, like it's it's almost never intentional to, like, not deal with something I haven't seen that. Yeah. Like that. So, yeah, I get in the I've gotten in the habit of just telling them flat out right from the beginning, hey.
Cameron:Could you please you know, after we're done with this conversation, please text me about this. Right.
Luke:Because I
Cameron:don't wanna forget it. Yep. And, that's been helpful.
Luke:Yeah. I'm gonna have to start doing that, I think, because Sundays, I'm like, are a little bit of a blur. Yeah. So because you end up especially now that you have 2 services and you have people coming up and talking to you before and after both of those services Yeah. You can kind of there's, like, 4 moments or 4 sections of time Mhmm.
Luke:Where you could be having people interactions and, like, it could get a little bit blurry for me.
Cameron:This is why I think it's important to be able to have a little bit of perspective before you comment on things like I'm thinking of the conversation I've seen online a few times about, like, pastors or worship teams having green rooms. Mhmm. Yeah. And whether or not that is like a
Luke:Wholly a good a good thing or a bad thing.
Cameron:Appropriate thing. Yeah. You know, whatever.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:And, I go I waffle on it a little bit.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:At my heart, I I feel like and maybe that this is a maybe we can just chalk this up to being as a personal value. Mhmm. At my heart, I never want to be so busy on a Sunday morning that I need to Mhmm. Spend my time in the green room. Right.
Cameron:And if you're not familiar with a green room, it's kind of like a what would you call it? Like a It's a well, it's a staging area
Luke:for people. It's well, the the the the 1 of the unhelpful things about it is that I think the terminology is borrowed straight from the theater Yeah. And performance sector. Yeah. So the green room in any theater or stage or concert venue place is a place where the quote unquote talent go to, like, before, after the show, in between when they're not in stage, has drinks, snacks, refreshments.
Luke:It's a place where they can kinda be and not be on stage or not be, you know, you know, having people coming up and Yeah. Wanting and needing things from them. It's kind of a private it's the private place that they can go backstage. Yeah. Right.
Luke:So churches have adopted having green rooms.
Cameron:Some churches.
Luke:Some churches. Particularly, usually larger churches that have multi Sunday service experiences that are like you know, and they've got, you know, big worship teams and Yep. And stuff like that. And so they just have a they have a room, and they just I don't know if they act I don't know where the term green came from. Like, it's actually supposed to be painted green or not.
Luke:But and so churches have started using that as, like, a space for Worship teams. Worship
Cameron:teams, pastors. Stuff like that.
Luke:All that to kinda have a Yeah. Place to go backstage, particularly when you're doing multi services. Yeah. It really doesn't make a whole lot. It makes pretty much no sense in my mind when you have 1 service.
Cameron:No. No. But yeah. Like, so I I had always felt like that was not the way that I wanted to pastor. Mhmm.
Cameron:I wanna be with with my people.
Luke:Yep.
Cameron:I I think it's hard to make the argument that that's not important. Yep. But I am also I also recognize that if you preach 2, 3, 4, 5, sometimes times in a day or in a weekend Mhmm. That your your ability to meaningfully connect with people actually diminishes if you were to be with out in the congregation Yeah. All 5 of those services before and after
Luke:the Gosh. We would I would need a room if we did 3 services.
Cameron:The Internet the interactions become more shallow because you're more, like, zoned out, tired. You've Mhmm. Heard. You know, like, you've been, you know, in ministry to people and with people and hear my heart. That's what I'm called to.
Luke:Mhmm. That's
Cameron:what I love. That's what I wanna do. Yep. There's there's a comes a point at the there comes a point in the day where I'm like, I don't know if I can do I don't know if I can do even 1 more conversation. And so, like, it, so I I have come to value, not value, understand.
Cameron:I've come to understand
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:Churches that do have those. And, and, like, even, like, when I said my need to just get away for, like, 3 minutes of
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Alone Yep. And grab a quick snack, granola bar, sip of coffee, whatever. I kinda I understand. And I guess if I were, like, to be forced into, like, say, you know, a church goes to 3 services, and then you really do need that time in between. Then what do you do?
Cameron:But I would think that if your church was big enough to go to 3 services
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Or more, you're gonna have multiple pastors on staff
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And that, you know, the those who are not in the role, like, in a preaching role
Luke:teaching
Cameron:or doing it. Or leading or something like that Right. To be with the people to make sure that they're being shepherded well Right. And empathetic presence Mhmm. For them for that for that particular week.
Cameron:So, I mean
Luke:Yeah. Well, it reminds me when I was a student, I was at like a conference and big name speaker came in to talk. And I remember being up, like, in the student section and we're worshiping. And I just remember seeing that speaker and they just were like it's like, they're just not singing along to the worship music. Like, they're just kind of, like, they're either looking at their notes or they're just kind of standing there, kind of flat, little expressionless.
Luke:And I just remember kind of having a lot of judgment on that. And it wasn't until I started, like, teaching regularly that, like, I realized how much of a strain on my voice sometimes teaching can be. Yep. And if you've got even just a little bit, like, of, like, you're getting over a cold or something, I was just like and I remember thinking back and I'm like, no. Like, there's been Sundays where I'm like, I can't sing today because if I sing, I will lose all of my voice Mhmm.
Luke:And I won't have anything to physically give of my voice when I get up there. Mhmm. And so it's just small things like that are really hard to really kind of take measure of and stock of until you're in it. Yeah. You know, I think the biggest thing when it comes to like the churches having green rooms thing is that like, you know, is is it being managed in such a way that's creating this, like, celebrity culture.
Luke:Right. And, you know, in because, like, can there is there maybe a purpose for that? Like, if you've got, like, say, a worship team that's, like, doing 3 services.
Cameron:Right.
Luke:Are they expected to sit in on the pastor's sermon 3 times and like
Cameron:I don't I don't expect the worship team to sit on mine twice. So Not that good.
Luke:Yeah. So, like, the question all you know, some of that kind of the practicality of what how you manage that does come in, but also not wanting to just create and borrow and make this kind of like celebrity otherness culture that is unhelpful Right. The way that we kinda do church.
Cameron:Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. We've, started this, we we're in a new series.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And we're gonna be saying that a lot the second half of the year because all of our series sermon series for the second half of the year are pretty short. Yeah. Like, 4 weeks is max. But we're in this new series that we, are that we called asking for a friend. And, so I think we may have even previewed that here.
Luke:We did.
Cameron:Yeah. Where you could, text in your the questions that you had about faith, the bible, or spirituality, Christianity, whatever.
Luke:Yep.
Cameron:And that we would work to we would collate all those. We would decide, okay, what's the kinda, like, the best ones to preach on and then took some other ones. I'm like, okay. We'll we'll bring these other ones over into our Wednesday night classes. And, so we've been working through those.
Cameron:I think we're gonna be going in the week 3
Luke:Yep. Of We're halfway done.
Cameron:Both of those. How is that
Luke:Cameron is having a very uncut reaction to that right now.
Cameron:I'm not prepared for the next sermon series, and it's like it's like right around the corner. Yeah. And, so, week 1, pastor Luke preached about how do we deal as Christians when we experience doubt. Yep. What do we do there?
Cameron:And then last week I preached on the, building or the building of empathy in us and what empathy is and it's rootedness in the gospel. And then this coming week, I'm gonna be preaching on I didn't even like to say I'm preaching on this. It's a whole thing for me right now. It's I'm dealing I'm I'm going through some things, people. Okay?
Cameron:I'm going through some things. But, preaching on, angels, demons, Satan Mhmm. Within scripture
Luke:Yep.
Cameron:In general. I don't even like to say that. Right. Because because you you don't wanna preach about Satan. No.
Cameron:We preach Jesus Christ and him crucified. Right. Right. Jesus Christ crucified. Like, like, it's we're g it's Jesus centric, all of our preaching.
Cameron:Yeah. Aim for it to be Jesus centric. But, so I'll be preaching on that in relation to the lordship of Jesus. Yes. Because that's the only way I that's the only way I would consider doing it.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And then the following week, the very last week, you're preaching the last of the sermon
Luke:I am.
Cameron:Which the title of that sermon or the topic of that sermon
Luke:is What do we do? Why did God allow evil into the world?
Cameron:Yes. The problem of evil. Theodicy.
Luke:Theodicy. Yes. Gotta I'm gonna try and ascertain God's intention as to why there's evil into the world.
Cameron:Yeah. Right.
Luke:It's own thing.
Cameron:Yeah. For sure. You know, and there's been, you know, there's very apologetic. And by apologetic, I mean the discipline of apologetics. Mhmm.
Cameron:There's, a pretty substantial library, apologetic library about that question in general, which tends to be on the more intellectual side of, like, like how can we make logical sense of, prevalence of pain or evil or whatever.
Luke:I think my favorite book on that topic is Keller's book, Walking With Jesus Through Pain and Suffering.
Cameron:I've not read
Luke:it. I think it's he does an overview of pretty much every major theodicy and deconstructs it and tells you why it's wrong. Okay. Typical killer. And then tells and then leaves you with the a biblical biblical explanation for suffering, which is that there's not much of an explanation for suffering.
Cameron:So Yeah. Well, that's, certainly is a deep topic. Yeah. A deep topic. And, good luck.
Luke:Thanks.
Cameron:Yeah. I mean but right after that, we're going into a sermon series on politics.
Luke:So Everyone's favorite topic.
Cameron:Mhmm. Yep. So, yeah. What have you how have you been feeling about, like, well, 1, talk a little bit about, like, the process of choosing some of those topics Yeah. And how, like, you just talk about
Luke:it a little. Yeah. Well, because, like, we got a bunch of questions. And, you know, if if we took people's questions verbatim, we wouldn't really always come up with a sermon. So, like, you know, so what we have so we do sometimes is we kinda look at the theme of some of the questions, maybe combine a couple, kind of bring them together, and kinda say, like, how do we turn this into 1 theme or topic that we think we can preach on?
Luke:You know, I was talking with someone who I know is probably gonna listen to this podcast episode because they were asking why we hadn't recorded in a while. Mhmm. But, they were asking, like, why did Jesus not write any of the books of the Bible himself? Which, which which but that's not that's that's a pretty narrow question Mhmm. That wasn't I was like, the and we talked a little bit about that, and the answer being is that we don't really know why God Jesus chose not to do that other than he seemed fit to want to involve the disciples and Mhmm.
Luke:Wasn't his primary purpose. Yeah. So, and that's pretty much the answer. I was like, that's you know, it wouldn't make it's not enough topic for a sermon necessarily.
Cameron:The answer to that question isn't necessarily theological nor is it rooted in scripture itself.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:You know, it's really a more cultural 1. Like, if I were to answer that question, I would answer it probably from the the basis of the
Luke:culture right now. Because, like, is there some sort of like the expectation of how a rabbi taught and this message was transmitted and all
Cameron:of that. Right. And like, yeah, it's was still primarily an oral culture.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Jesus was gone Mhmm. In heaven. Yep. Right. By the time it was beginning to transition into a written culture.
Luke:Yep.
Cameron:Or at the very least, was beginning
Luke:It was beginning to spread in such a way that it needed to be written.
Cameron:It needed to be written. Yep. Yep. And so it could be circulated.
Luke:Yep.
Cameron:But, yeah. No. Like, you're right questions. There are questions that are asked that are not necessarily preachable. Right.
Cameron:Right. We can We
Luke:can answer it or talk about it.
Cameron:Yeah. Talk, teach. And so we have used Wednesday nights as a way to do some of that.
Luke:Yes. Yeah. So we try and formulate them into kind of a more pithy general question. Mhmm. And then, and then we try and do our best to thematically cover that through the Bible.
Luke:Right? Try and find either a primary singular or couple of primary texts that deal with that topic or idea, root our primary exposition somewhere and then cover that. You know, like that's our, that's how we kinda do it. You know? I think, we've talked about this here, but sometimes people I don't know that I don't I haven't had anybody say this in a long time, but, you know, people are like, oh, we only wanna hear expositional preaching, and expositional preaching, like, can't be topical.
Luke:And I've always thought that just to be, it's like you can do topical preaching and have it be expositional. Mhmm. It's like I
Cameron:just expositing several different tests.
Luke:Yes. Together and having them interpret 1 another. Like, that's that's still expositional. So just because we're not going through, like, a book doesn't mean we're not doing expositional preaching. I think we pretty much exclusively do expositional.
Luke:Yeah. Like, because we're always rooting it in the text.
Cameron:So Yeah. I don't think that there really can be another faithful or effective way of preaching than for it to be expositional. Right. Even if it's topical. Right.
Luke:So yeah. So yeah. Well, that's how we kind of did that. And yeah. Was that kind of the question you were So Yeah.
Luke:Kinda driving at?
Cameron:Yeah. You might find that, like, oh, maybe you submitted a question that didn't make make the list, so to speak, and that wasn't like not all the questions were bad. No. Or there was wasn't it's not that the question was bad. It's just that, like, sometimes we try we're we're trying to lump similar types of questions together to hit a wider base, or it might just be that, like, it's probably be better for a conversation or just a quick answer.
Cameron:And the whole sermon is not necessary.
Luke:Yeah. This or we put it into a Wednesday class. So like this last week, we did. I taught on, what did I call it? Contemporary issues with, like, sexuality.
Luke:Sexual issues. Yeah. Temporary sexual issues, trying to cover a biblical sexual ethic. This week, we'll talk about, what do I do when a friend confesses sin to me? Which I think is gonna be a fun topic.
Cameron:Especially coming off the heels of empathy.
Luke:For sure. And what's the what's the other 1? What's the other class topic? I know what the last 1 is. What's the 1 before that That you're teaching?
Cameron:I don't know.
Luke:Because we're doing 1 on Catholicism.
Cameron:Catholicism was the last 1.
Luke:Maybe that is the last 1.
Cameron:No. Because no. It can't be. It is wait for it. Drum roll.
Cameron:Wait for it. The afterlife.
Luke:Ah, yes. The
Cameron:afterlife. Questions concerning Heaven, purgatory, the rapture.
Luke:Yes. So we get
Cameron:because we got a lot of a lot of those types of questions.
Luke:Yep. Yeah. Yep. So kinda just lump that all in there together.
Cameron:Yep. Mhmm. Yeah. So that's kind of been life in a nutshell.
Luke:Yeah. That's a lot of that's a lot of topicals takes more research and I think brain power than getting our head inside of a singular book of the Bible and kind of following it, following the through line. Because it's like, I'm sure for your last 1 that you just did, how do we grow in our empathy? There's not like a passage that says, you know, thus what empathy is. Right.
Luke:Jesus Jesus said, this is what empathy is, and this is how you grow in it. Like, there's no text on that.
Cameron:The word empathy doesn't even really exist In the bible. In the new testament. Right.
Luke:Yeah. So having to kind of walk through that in a larger theological Mhmm. Sense. I'm cure I'm I wonder if people would how do you do that? Like, how do if someone, like, wants to learn about, like, what the Bible has to say about a particular topic, what do they
Cameron:do? What should they do? What should what do you do? What should they do? Like Yeah.
Cameron:Almost always, I, almost always if there is a topic, like, I the first the the first thing that I would do would be to, do a quick review of the gospels.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Whether that would be just like in my own head or whether I would actually skim or read the gospels to see if this is an issue or a corollary issue to anything that Jesus either talked about
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Experienced himself, dealt with, or that his ministry represents. Yep. So what is first what is what is its rootedness in the life of Jesus?
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And so it's that's similar to what I did with empathy.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:You know? Yeah. You have to, I think, have some some type of understanding of what the actual like like, so since empathy is not the word empathy is not in the scripture.
Luke:Right. You've gotta extrapolate it out to a theme or a concept.
Cameron:Well, I had to have some type of idea of what empathy even was first. Right. And so if if I'm using kind of the working definition of empathy of being like being present with someone in the midst of their experiences, whether positive or negative, hurting, broken, joy, celebration, whatever, or being present with someone. And then so if you kinda go off of like that as a working definition and then you're like, alright. Well, the obvious question is, like, was Jesus like, is that a thing that is represented in the ministry of Jesus?
Cameron:Was he present in the life of the hurting and the broken? Holy crap.
Luke:Yeah. You know? Every chapter.
Cameron:Every chapter. Every line. Right? Was he present in the life of people who were joyful or celebrating? Mhmm.
Cameron:We yes. We have examples of that as well. Mhmm. Like, okay. So now we know it's rooted in the life of Jesus.
Cameron:What more now can we say about it? That's kinda how I went from the from, like, was able to because it's not really something that I, like, held as a strongly, like, had as a strongly held belief before I prepared the sermon Mhmm. Was that the incarnation was an example, like, a deeply theological understanding of empathy.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Right? That that God God came to be present with us.
Luke:Yep.
Cameron:And to save us from our sin, to be with be with us in the hurt and brokenness of sin in our lives, to bring both his presence and the power of Jesus Christ, but also offer response to that. Mhmm. Like, holy cow. Like, yeah, the incarnation is, is empathy.
Luke:Yep.
Cameron:And they're not 1 of the same, but, like, it is an example of empathy. And Yeah. And then you obviously see, okay, what can you learn from maybe a few examples of Jesus' interaction with the hurting and broken in scripture? Like, how does he show up? What does he do?
Cameron:And so, like, in March chapter 14 or no. I'm sorry. March chapter 1, the story of the leper
Luke:Yep.
Cameron:Where we talked about the funny words.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:And, that word I read about in a commentary. Mhmm. So it's not like I didn't know it wasn't my insight or anything like that.
Luke:You don't you're not a walking Greek lexicon, Cameron?
Cameron:No. I'm not. But,
Luke:And neither is most preachers.
Cameron:No. Like, no. We're not, you know, we're not Greek scholars or anything like that.
Luke:Someone says, not every preacher, some preachers know their Greek super well, but Yeah. I would not say the majority.
Cameron:I know where to go
Luke:Sure. To
Cameron:to find out what the Greek says it is.
Luke:And you can engage with that.
Cameron:And I can agree. Yes. Yeah. Right. But I don't know it, like, just by reading it.
Luke:Yeah. You're I don't walk in and see you doing your Greek flashcard.
Cameron:No. No. But even that, like, taking just that 1 word or that 1 that 1 phrase Mhmm. And being able to discover where else does it exist in the New Testament. 12 times the New Testament every single time.
Cameron:It's translated either Jesus had compassion on them or Jesus was indignant or Jesus was all of that. And really what it signify what that word was, like, the author, the the ones using that word were trying to communicate a, like, deep at his core, the center of who he was. He felt these things. He felt compassion Yeah. For people.
Cameron:And so and then there's just things that we do as preachers to, like, okay. This is what the word says.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:It's clear that it's all here, but how now are we bridging the gap between what the word says and what how Jesus wants to use that through his holy spirit in our lives? Mhmm. Like, how do we how are we getting from that point to the next point?
Luke:Right.
Cameron:And so there's many many different things that we can do there, many different ways that we can address that. But what I chose for this past week was just to offer, like, 1 line prayers that people could pray throughout the week to develop more empathy. So that's really similar. So, like, I'm we'll be preaching a series on forgiveness here in a few months.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Even a few months. 2 months. 1 month.
Luke:Less time than you think.
Cameron:Yes. And the question is, well, where in the Bible does it talk about forgiveness? What's the where's the forgiveness section of the Bible? There's not a forgiveness section.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:Forgiveness is talked about a lot. Yes. Like Jesus, Paul. Right? And and he talks about it a ton.
Cameron:Mhmm. But there's no 1 section. So you gotta kind of take each of those sections and say, alright. Well, what is it trying to communicate here? Mhmm.
Cameron:You know, like, if I take the end of the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus is talking about the measure upon which you are forgiven is measured the same as the how much you forgive.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Right? And so take that take application from that verse, and it becomes a sermon point. But then now then maybe I'm jumping over to Paul. You know? And we're we're drawing application from different from different parts of the of the scripture.
Cameron:So, you know, it topical and expositional go hand in hand. I don't I think it's unfair to separate them all the time. Yep. But, you know, if you're a layperson and you're like, okay. What what if I want to use the same example?
Cameron:What if I wanna learn what the Bible says about forgiveness?
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Right? You know, I think you do have to be careful about Internet tools.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:But there are some reliable ones out there that we can that I could recommend to say where you could go in and type in the search bar forgiveness. Mhmm. And they're generally gonna be really, really blue letter Bible is 1 I use. Mhmm. Bible gateway is 1 that I you have used before.
Cameron:But, that's gonna give you not it's not gonna maybe flat out tell you this is what forgiveness is. But, like, if you go to blueletterbible.comororg, 1
Luke:of the
Cameron:2, and you do a keyword search for forgiveness, it's gonna list out every single reference to the word forgiveness in scripture, and then then you have to do the work. Yeah. Then you gotta dig through those.
Luke:Right. And And read around those verses.
Cameron:Right. Yes. Yeah. Understand context and Mhmm. Draw some application and ask some questions to people in the faith.
Cameron:You know? So it's that that's how I deal topically with things. Yeah. You know, it's not really magic. And sometimes you get a topic and you're like, okay.
Cameron:There is a very, very definitive story in the gospels about this topic.
Luke:Yep. Sometimes that happens.
Cameron:You know? Like, I already know that in the forgiveness series, I'm gonna I'm gonna teach on the parable of the unmerciful servant. Mhmm. Easy. Yep.
Cameron:I'm not easy, but, like Sure. It's just here. Right. Right? I got it.
Cameron:Right. That's a whole sermon for sure.
Luke:Yep.
Cameron:You know? And but others like empathy, like, maybe you gotta think about it a little bit more or politics. You gotta think about it even a little bit more. So you gotta run through the scripture again and, like, how many times how many times over the last almost 20 years of ministry as a preacher of the word have I read the entire of the New Testament just to to prepare for 1 sermon
Luke:Yep.
Cameron:Or 1 sermon series to make sure that I have mined the well Mhmm. Of God's word. Yeah. And people are like, well, how does it take how could it possibly take you that many hours to prepare 1 well, when you're reading the whole New Testament in a week
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:And then drawing out the application from it and trying to sort through
Luke:Mhmm. What
Cameron:people need to hear and what the Lord wants to have said, like, it could chew up a lot of time really quick.
Luke:Yeah. Well, and it's at least I've gotten better at this, but it's still tempting sometimes in research and reading to chase a red herring.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:Like, my classic example of this was I was preaching in Daniel. I think I was doing Daniel in the lion's den, and there was some historicity debate around who was king or overseer when that was happening and whether or not that was this person or this person and whether that person really existed. And I came all read all this really long historical text and came to what I thought was a very good conclusion. And I turned and asked somebody, I said, where should I put this in my sermon you think?
Cameron:You shouldn't.
Luke:And they're like, why would you Yeah. Put that in your sermon? Yeah. Like, literally no 1 cares. I was just like, well, I guess I spent so I've spent hours reading and researching this.
Luke:Somebody should care because I cared. Right.
Cameron:Yeah. How much would you say? Because that's an interesting point because how much would if you had to if you had to guess, it's probably an unfair question. Each sermon is a little bit different. Yeah.
Cameron:How much of your research hits the cutting room floor?
Luke:Now much less than it used to because I'm much more discerning in what I read. I used to, because I was because before I was writing sermons, I was writing research papers. I was writing Bible papers. And so you had to do your research. So I'm grabbing the most complicated textbooks I can get and, like, commentary or something, you know, going through them.
Luke:Now I like I open, you know, it it when I used to when I was gonna do a exegetical paper or biblical paper on a passage, I would go and get, like, a minimum of 5 or 6 commentaries, put them on the scanner, and I'd scan the pages, put them on a PDF, and I'd read like all of them on all the sections. Now, I may be open, like, usually open at least 2 commentaries, maybe 3, if it's like, if there's something in the text that is like kind of confusing. Mhmm. And they're usually I usually go for the Zondervan, like, background, historical cultural background commentary is usually the first 1 I open.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And then I usually grab, if I have it. And if I don't, sometimes I buy it, the digital version of the new international, the NIV application commentary, because usually, it's 1 of the better commentaries and they summarize the things instead of, you know?
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And then maybe if I really need something, I'll go into 1 more more technical ones. That's pretty much it. Yeah. You know? And so I, like, I I usually I usually leave out pretty much anything that has to do with, like, word, like, interpretation when it comes into, like, what does this word mean or something?
Luke:I leave the conclusion in there, but I almost I very rarely, unless it's like a word that is really it's it's obviously translated different in different translations where people have a hard time kind of getting what this means in English. I almost never mentioned any kind of background behind it. I just kinda preach it as it is. So I don't know, maybe 30% of what I read just doesn't hit. 30, 40% doesn't make it into the sermon.
Luke:Mhmm. Sometimes less than that. Yeah. What about you?
Cameron:It depends on the topic. Yeah.
Luke:I
Cameron:would say it's probably pretty accurate. Like, I'm always, like, I I like to over prepare Yeah. As a, as a source of comfort
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And I don't wanna say confidence Yeah. In, like, the grasp of the topic Yeah. Or the verse. Yep. You know, even if I am not preaching a certain point of the verse Mhmm.
Cameron:I wanna know for the most part everything
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:About it. Yeah. Because sometimes things do turn on a dime Yeah. During a sermon, and you do draw from. Yeah.
Cameron:Something you learned in your research or whatever. Doesn't happen all the time. But Yeah. You usually, at that point, you've kind of whittled down to what are the most important things. Because, like, the whole the whole question about, like, the king, who was the king in Daniel.
Luke:And not even the whole thing in Daniel, just this 1 part of Daniel.
Cameron:The the the question that I always walk away with is, like, what what is actually helpful for people? Right. Yep. And and that's not the same thing as to say, oh, you're just preaching what people wanna hear.
Luke:No. No. It's certainly not doing that.
Cameron:What they what is most helpful for people is sometimes not exactly not what they want. They don't wanna hear it.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:And so if the if the name of the king has good applicability to my congregation, then I'm gonna dive into that. Sure. But if it's just gonna be if it's just gonna show the diligence of my research, it's not about me. Right? It's not about me.
Cameron:So but that it is I think it is maybe not important, but I I would hope that people would I would hope that people would honor the diligence of their pastor
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:By understanding how much time we really do spend preparing
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:Messages from the Lord for them.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:And and that that would be evident Yeah. In the preaching.
Luke:I think the sermon I preached on spiritual warfare, we struggle not against flesh and blood, but against prince and principalities and so forth. And in end of Ephesians, I think I probably left out 60% of what I read.
Cameron:There's a lot there. Yeah. There's a lot.
Luke:Right
Cameron:in that script.
Luke:And it's such, it's kind of a it's not a super talked about topic. Right. And so it's like, I was, I think I got, I think I had 3 books that weren't even commentaries open. Yeah. In addition to like the 4 or 5 commentaries I was reading on it.
Luke:Mhmm. I left out like 60% of what I read on in preparing for that 1, for sure.
Cameron:How helpful do you find, you got time. How helpful do you find, listening to other preachers preach the same text?
Luke:When I was younger and I was brand new at preaching, before I even really knew what I was doing, I was preaching at youth group. I would do that would be a significant portion of my study, because I would listen to other trusted preachers I kinda like relied upon and would kind of use them to kinda inform me. Now, I almost never. I will do it on occasion if it's a topic that I'm really kind of like, I want a little bit of confidence that I'm coming to a, like, an agreed upon. Mhmm.
Luke:Or if I'm really just, like, if I'm, like, slammed.
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:And I'm, like, I do not have the time to read more, but I can throw 1 on as a podcast or something, and I can listen to it a little bit. I will do that on occasion. But I would say that now, I almost never listen to a sermon on a topic or a passage before I preach it. Mhmm. Because it usually, and I don't, and if I do, I don't like it.
Luke:It's It's never my first step No. Or second or third. It's I've usually got, like, my outline. Yep. I've got like a general sense of my main idea and my general gist of an outline before I ever listen to a sermon because it's too easy to just- Take it.
Luke:Take it, even unintentionally, and pull what they did and form it into your own. So I like most of my stuff to be kinda done. And then if I listen to a sermon, it's mostly to just try and like, maybe I'll glean a quote or just a bit of an affirmation that, like, alright, I've thought through this text. Yes. I'm usually listening to somebody who is also, like like, I've been listening to a little bit to John Tyson because that man does his research.
Cameron:He's very well read.
Luke:Very well read. And I'm just like, good grief, man.
Cameron:I still don't know how they do it.
Luke:Yeah. Don't know how they do it. So
Cameron:Actually, I do know how John does it because he actually talked about it once. How does he do it? You're not gonna like the answer. Fine.
Luke:Do you have researchers?
Cameron:No. Okay. No. He, he says he has he answered this question. He said, he's like, it's not this is a personal value and a personal conviction.
Cameron:It's not for everyone else.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:I know that it is for me. It's what the Lord has called me to. But he essentially said, like, we I have I have spent significant seasons of my life, telling my wife and my family that, like, don't ask me to watch a Netflix series with you. Don't ask me to, like we won't be watching like, not going out to movies. I'm not watching Netflix at the end of the day.
Cameron:I'm not, like, involved in a lot of extracurricular, like, things. He was like, I like I go he didn't say it like this. He is much more Australian about the way that he said it. But, essentially, like, he has, like, he he commits every bit of brain power that he has towards digesting material in order to preach.
Luke:I mean, power to them.
Cameron:Yeah. So, like, when I'm laying in bed with Netflix on, scrolling my phone in the Tyson household, He's sitting in his chair reading Augustine.
Luke:Yeah. I mean, power to him.
Cameron:I love it. I I love it. Yeah. I I feel a little convicted towards that. Yeah.
Cameron:I it's hard for me to say I don't have the discipline, but I don't have the discipline for it. Or maybe it's like the I don't have the heart. I don't, like, I had not been given a heart like a burden, like he has.
Luke:I I don't have the brain power for it. Yeah. I shut down. I I like, this is something I've actually, like, really struggled with is that, like, I only have so many hours of active brain power in me any given day.
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:And when I hit my limit, I'm pretty shot. Yep. Like, and sometimes you see this if you come up to me after, like, church on Sunday, and I look like a deer in headlights, it's because I am. Like I might be shot. I might be at like pretty much maxed out.
Luke:And it doesn't mean I can't give anything, but I'm certainly not reading Augustine's confessions after that.
Cameron:Yeah. I've been reading more
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:At night, especially at night.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:After kids go to bed. Yeah. But even then, it's like, I don't I can't do hours.
Luke:Mm-mm.
Cameron:Like, I I maybe get, like, a half hour to an hour
Luke:Yep.
Cameron:Of before, like, I'm I mean, I usually get up to, like, 4 and 5 to do my workout. And so by the time 9 o'clock rolls around Yeah. I'm, like, looking to go to sleep. Yep. And so I don't have a whole lot of time Yeah.
Cameron:To do that. I really wish I was better at
Luke:it. Yeah.
Cameron:And, you know, I can hear my inner coach tell me right now Mhmm. Like, it's not a motivation thing. It's not even an energy thing. It's a discipline thing. Yeah.
Cameron:Because I tell my students that. Yeah. Tell the athletes that I coach that. Like, no. It's like you know, getting up, everyone's like, well, how are you so motivated to get up in the morning and go work out?
Cameron:I'm not motivated.
Luke:Right. It's it's not because if you do it only when you're motivated, you're gonna do it twice.
Cameron:Yeah. Ever. You're never gonna do it. Right. I'm I'm not motivated.
Cameron:I'm disciplined. Yeah. Like, there's there's something else in me Yeah. That drives me to do that. That's my must.
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:Yeah. No. If, like, III can hear that. I I if I was to, like, try and take stock of the empty time
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:In my life and, like, limit my phone, which I have gotten much better. I probably talk about how much I'm on my phone way too much publicly. People are gonna think I'm like a screen addict or something. But it is true. But it is true.
Cameron:Every single time someone says they don't have time for that, I ask them to check their screen time app.
Luke:Yeah. My screen time was up the last, like, 2 weeks. I'm like, I gotta yep. Gotta get that down. I don't wanna so, like, I'm going I'm at least reading fiction when I get into bed at night now.
Luke:You know? So but, just to close the circle, what do you what what does your prep look like with sermons or non sermons?
Cameron:It's very similar to yours. Yeah. They're, usually, I want usually, I will go to a sermon after mine is complete to just get confirmation that I am approaching the scripture correctly.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Or that not even confirmation that I'm approaching the scripture correctly.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:But that, like, you know, sometimes, like, you say your preacher's scripture, like, that's, like, 10 verses long. Yep. And there's 3 or 4 topics that you could take Yep. Out of that. And sometimes I just wanna see, like, am I approaching this in a way that's, like, faithful, helpful Yep.
Cameron:Preachable, hearing the lord on it
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:And have I already done the work and not asking some other guy to do the work for me so that I can just take it and use it. Mhmm. But, you know and then sometimes I like to go honestly, sometimes I like to go and listen to guys that I know I'm not necessarily gonna agree with to see whether or not I'm just preaching my bias Yeah. Or Like
Luke:listen to somebody else try and preach it a different way.
Cameron:And And maybe not even with a different way, but, like, in a different spirit. You know? Mhmm. Yeah. I I'm not saying this pejoratively about him at all.
Cameron:I don't mean this in a negative sense to to John MacArthur.
Luke:Sure.
Cameron:But he and I are different. We're different preachers. Right. We're different pastors.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:But there are several times, especially through Ephesians
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Where I went to where I like, how how is how is pastor John preaching through this text here?
Luke:Mhmm. What
Cameron:was his approach? Yeah. What was the spirit in which he brought to it? Mhmm. How what was the pastoral heart that he brought to the teaching?
Cameron:Mhmm. Because the the, like, the actual content is really kind of unarguable. Right. What was the pastoral heart that he brought to the content? Just to kind of, like, get a sense of it.
Cameron:Yeah. And I don't really know why other than like I felt like I needed more. And I like you said, I didn't really have my eyes could no longer stay open to read another commentary. Yep. You know?
Cameron:Or so yeah. Obviously, you know, we skipped over a a significant amount of, like, the probably the most significant portion of sermon preparation is that the time we spend in our knees in prayer about something, which is significant. Mhmm. But but I I would hope that that would be self evident. Alright?
Cameron:I would hope that that would be, like, the obvious foundation.
Luke:Yep. And
Cameron:then then we add the preparation to it as well. Yeah. So
Luke:but Yep.
Cameron:So don't hear that as saying that we never pray. But Right. Right.
Luke:Yes.
Cameron:Well, welcome back. Yep. Thanks for listening in. Sorry we've been, absent for a few weeks. We it's not our intent to do this or to do it regularly or often.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:Be absent that long.
Luke:Nope. It's just
Cameron:the longest break that we've had in a year Very much. A half of doing this.
Luke:Yeah. And very much an unintentional 1. So
Cameron:Yeah. And there's several times over the next couple of weeks where next couple of months actually where we're gonna be you're gonna be gone or I'm gonna be gone or we're both gonna be gone or, you know, we're gonna be traveling or whatever. So try and keep it as regular as we can and Yep. We stack a cool maybe stack a couple of recordings up in the road so that we can get over to. Thanks for listening, and, we'll catch you
