Church Money: Where does the money go?
Welcome to the uncut podcast. I'm pastor Luke. I am pastor Cameron. And this is The Uncut Podcast where we have honest uncut conversations about faith, life, and ministry. Cameron was trying so hard to not drop into the microphone as we did that intro.
Cameron:Sorry about that.
Luke:So we're, sitting down, and we saw a interesting piece of, social media the other day Mhmm. That, sparking lots of conversation in its own. Right? And, like, it's where it was posted and all of that. And we just thought it'd be an interesting conversation to have because it's, I don't know, I feel like I've seen a number of there's that 1 documentary that you and I both have been following.
Luke:It's kind of, quote unquote, making of it's like an independent documentary of some like I can't even remember who that what it's called, but like.
Cameron:Religion as business.
Luke:Religion as business, which I don't know a ton. It just seems like some ex church people or ex pastors. They're not necessarily ex religious. They're just
Cameron:it's taking a it's taking a, I don't wanna say defamatory because I haven't watched
Luke:it, so I don't really Well, yeah. They haven't
Cameron:finished it yet. But it's taking a, like, a very critical look at from the standpoint of, like, do we really understand Yeah. How churches operate and to what level they are businesses
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Rather than religious organizations. Yeah.
Luke:And that's kind of a topic. That's a topic that's been in mainstream news even, oh, that show that with the British guy, last week tonight or something like that with John Oliver. It's like a it's like a comedian. He does, like, comedian, like, kind of like the John Stewart show Mhmm. Of or, like, the daily the daily whatever.
Luke:Whatever those shows used to be. So a mixture of stand up comedy and news reporting, expose type of thing. Kind of like Adam ruins everything back when that was, like, really common. So he did 1 maybe a year ago, maybe 2 years ago. If you, like, Google it, you could find it.
Luke:He did 1 exposing churches and kind of made this kind of, like, essentially this argument that churches had should lose their tax exemption status because of the way they use money. So it's something that's like people are have been and continue to be and will continue to be critical of churches and how they use their money.
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:So, do you want to tell us a little bit about the, the the video I I sent
Cameron:to you. There's a video where a guy who does a lot of church marketing, advertising, social media, web stuff, digital stuff, digital space, Brady Shear.
Luke:Who we both follow and
Cameron:Yeah. I think
Luke:pay attention to.
Cameron:I think it's great Yeah. Great stuff. I I would I would say that he is, like, in service to the church. Mhmm. He wants to make churches
Luke:He does.
Cameron:Online spaces Yeah. Better. Yeah. And everything that is involved in that. He runs an organization called Pro Church Tools.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Super good, high quality stuff. Yeah. He, made a video, highlighting some of the results of the national study of congregations economic practices, nsep.org, that in the in in his video, he highlighted the, like, the growth the gross as in whole, not in, like, icky. Yeah.
Luke:Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron:Right? Right. Gross percentages. The big picture. The big picture percentages of how it was determined that churches spend their money.
Luke:Right. He didn't just for note, he didn't actually say anything in the video about it. Right. He's just like, here's the numbers from this website. And then he kinda just invited his viewers to have a discussion about it.
Cameron:In the comments.
Luke:In the comments. I looked on his feed. He hadn't posted anything, any follow-up where he gives his take. I'm sure that Right. And give it a week or 2, he probably will put out a blog or a video and talk more in-depth about his personal opinions about it.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:And his
Luke:hot take, but he didn't say anything about it. So he just put the numbers there. And then the comments were just people reacting to that. Yeah.
Cameron:And some of them were positive, and some of them were really negative as you can imagine. Yeah. And I think it's, you know, probably a lot of it is just based on your perspective, where you sit.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:What window are you looking out of?
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:So what's the landscape you're gonna see? Yeah. And, so the the percentages were essentially I don't know the sample size of churches, and I don't know what their requirements were. Whatever. These are just just what was shared in the video.
Cameron:Right. 49% of a church's budget had norm in this study had gone towards personnel.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:23% towards facility. So that right there is a 72% of a church's budget goes towards personnel and facilities. Yep. Call it overhead if you want. I don't know.
Cameron:But then 11% on missions.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:10% on programs, and then 7% on admin, which he said was essentially a, like, a catchall category or like a miscellaneous category.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:Where is it gonna where does the numbers fit when there's no place else for the numbers to fit?
Luke:Right.
Cameron:And, and so the reactions to the to those percentages were were wide and varied. And so I thought maybe you'll why don't we just talk a little bit about that today?
Luke:Yeah. Like,
Cameron:there had been, you know, I think that, earlier in ministry for me, meaning years ago, there was kind of the like, there was a a generalized understanding of if your church intends to be financially healthy
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:What would be appropriate percentages to be represented in overhead expense? Yeah. And 1 of the most significant, what you'll what could be called overhead expenses in the church is personnel costs. Yes. That would be salaries, taxes for those salaries.
Cameron:Mhmm. You know, the church pays self employ you know, we're an employer just like any other employer. We have employees. Taxes, and, any insurances associated with insurance associated with that workers' comp and Mhmm. On disability and all that.
Cameron:Any other fringe benefits to employees, salaries or health care or, retirement benefits, anything like that. Yeah. And the general, like, understanding was that the closer that you can get that number to, like, between 42 45%
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:The better. Yeah. That is kinda, like, was kinda like the standard rule of thumb. Yep. And so I'm not really surprised to see this number at 49%.
Cameron:No. At all.
Luke:Me neither.
Cameron:I think that the question is, what is the question for me has always been, if you how what is your perspective
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:On the role of personnel within the church? Right. And because the and and and and perspective varies really widely. I I've had people when they find out, for instance, what I make when the church pays me as a salary, I've had people be really offended in both directions.
Luke:Offended that it was too much and offended that it was so little?
Cameron:Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I've I've had people say, you know, like, oh, it must be nice to be a pastor. No.
Cameron:K. That's a topic for another podcast. And then I've had people on the other side say, like, like, that seems low given the responsibility that you have. Yeah. The education you have.
Cameron:Right. The experience you have. So it like, opinions vary
Luke:Yes.
Cameron:On that. Mhmm. They vary. But my opinion is that is that it is a little bit of a red herring to talk about personnel costs outside of the conversation about talking about missional or theological attachment to those costs. Yeah.
Cameron:And what I mean by that is that if you because then now you're gonna look at these percentages and say, well, church only spends 11% on missions. Right. The the word missions is really vast and lots of people have like, what does even that mean? Like, does this mean, like, money that it sends to missionaries? Does this mean it's the whole of its outreach budget, outreach locally, regionally
Luke:Right.
Cameron:Internationally? Does this include what does this include for like, if if the church has a, like, an evangelism any sort of evangelistic ministry or discipleship ministry or anything like that. Yep. Is that included in missions or is that included in programs? Or is it included as I think it is in personnel?
Cameron:Right. Because is
Luke:is the assumption that your staff we're just paying our staff to sit in a room and not Do ministry. Do ministry.
Cameron:Right. So I always tell people that personnel expenses are ministry expenses. Right. They they they that's money that is expended towards mission. Counseling, evangelism, discipleship, the teaching of the word, the leading of worship Right.
Cameron:The praying over the sick. Mhmm. That 49% that seems like such a bloated number in the budget actually represents the largest percentage or capacity of missional or ministry expense that a church has. Right. And so I think that numbers like this are a little deceiving because it assumes a description of a business model.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Where we're a let's say we're just a, you know, we're a family run business and, oh, they it's a, you know, for profit business, and it just pays its employees 49% of its budget. Right. Virtually no 1 would say, oh, yeah. It's too much.
Luke:No. That's I mean, it's a it depends on, like so I have a a little bit of extra perspective. I've done Did some reading recently on a book called, Profit First, which is a model of running your small business finances. And he essentially like, it's it's a little bit of, like, mental, mental finagling, how you view finances inside of a small business, but also, the big portion of it is that it lands with a, like, these are generally recommended healthy percentages, to be used on certain categories, operating expenses, personnel expenses, and things like that, for different sized businesses. And those percentages, what it like, they don't really overlap too much except for the, what, the facilities, the admin, and the personnel, like programs and because there's no profit.
Luke:Right? So it's not a so there's not a thing. But the personnel expenses and then the costs of operating are all pretty doggone close to what, like, is recommended for even just a small business to operate.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And but then here's the other thing too, is that if you were to look at, it's a little bit of a matter of scale. If you were to look at, like, a small church, right? Like maybe 100, 150 people, 1 person on staff, or maybe 1 and a half. Right? 1 person full time staff, presumably a senior pastor, somebody who's like part time secretary.
Luke:That's like a lot of That's a significant amount of churches throughout the United States fit that model. I would wager that their expense category on personnel is above 50% probably.
Cameron:Probably. Yeah.
Luke:And that's just because there's less money in the pot overall. If there was more money, if the church was bigger and had more money to deal, the percentages would do. So there's a little bit of a, a matter of scale that comes into play with each congregation and each church.
Cameron:Yeah. I think 1 of the I guess, I mean, maybe I'll just pose this as a question. Yeah. Is the church a business? I don't think so.
Cameron:Yeah. I don't think so either. Why? Does the church utilize some business practices? Yeah.
Cameron:Yeah. And are those 2 things different?
Luke:Yes. Yeah. Right? Right. But because what makes a nonprofit versus for profit?
Luke:Right? Like, what's the difference there? Like, where a profit business is always concerned about, like, the bottom line. Right? And and how much money how much can we do, how much product can we sell, and have the most amount of money left over after we finished selling our product, whatever that is, whether that's a service or whatever.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:For us, if we have we wanna be financially responsible, right? We don't wanna always be running like right at the line so that like if something catastrophic were to happen, the church, like, falls under because it doesn't have money to pay the bills. But if we have so much left over and we're like, yay. Like, we're actually probably failing at what we're supposed to be doing because money unspent is ministry unspent. Unspent.
Luke:Yeah. And so, like, a church that is just squirreling away, you know, what would classically be called profit and just sits in a bank account that doesn't have a plan, doesn't have a purpose, is just kind of sitting there for the accruement of it. That's ministry that could be done to people or done with people, for people through the church. That's just
Cameron:not being done. Right. And I will tell you that there's nothing like, there are many nonprofits Mhmm. In the world that make a profit. Yes.
Cameron:It's not the the the term nonprofit is, like, just, like, the the wording that the IRS uses to determine who has 501c3 status or not, which is really just a particular tax Classification. Tax classification Right. Rather than a permission or not permission to actually be in the black, be even, or be red Yeah. At the end of the year. Mhmm.
Cameron:And, so I I think that there's a little bit of AII think it's a little bit of a it's misleading to say that the church is not a business because I think what the I think what the, assumption there is is that because the church has at the center of its purposefulness in in the most broad terms Mhmm. Religious orientation or goals or philosophy or mission or whatever, then it therefore should operate not as a business, but it should have some kind of like higher standard upon which it operates. But then it like, we feel it really doesn't allow Mhmm. The church to manage or organize itself in a responsible way.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:Right? Like you I I would think that most people would want churches to be well run. Yeah. Using appropriate business practices that are contextual for an organization like ours.
Luke:Right. Right? Like, for example, like, if because okay. Let's say we're like, alright. We're we our our goal is to at the end of each month or each quarter or whatever, have 0 money in the balance.
Luke:Right? We're we're we're we're spending it all, and then, and it's all being used, it's all being sent out, whatever. Like, we're essentially setting the church to live paycheck to paycheck Yeah. And and to put it in personal finance terms.
Cameron:Right.
Luke:But then let's say the economy drops and then the church and people stop giving as much or whatever. Right? Something happens that affects the income of the church or the roof falls in, something happens that there's this big expense that the church suddenly has to. And church is like, well, we don't have anything to help buffer that. We have to close our doors.
Luke:Mhmm. And all of a sudden, the congregation's like, well, why did our church close down? Well, we had this philosophy that, like, we felt like it was sinful or wrong to have any money left over as, like, a buffer for expenses and operating. And so we never had any saved.
Cameron:Right. We didn't wanna act we we didn't wanna be a business. We didn't wanna act like a business.
Luke:We didn't wanna act like a business. Yeah. Well, that's that's pretty irresponsible, particularly, like, if the congregation wants the church to continue to be around Right. Even if, you know, there's a year or 2 of hard finances. So, you know, and then there's obviously there's a line at which like, okay, at what point are we saving to be responsible and saving just for like an emotional reason or for
Cameron:Like security.
Luke:Security reason.
Cameron:Right. Yeah.
Luke:Or for, like, a reason that's that is no longer in line with, you know, with what we feel like we ought to be doing with that money. But the Right. You know, you want the church to continue to be here, the church has to operate in a way that allows it to be more stable.
Cameron:Yeah. Yeah. Most people would say that, yeah, we'd like to go to a church that has a roof on it.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:And that is climate controlled in some ways, has a heater in the winter or AC in the summer, or that has power and the lights are on. It's not just dark or
Luke:Has a bathroom inside.
Cameron:Has a bathroom. Right? Like, all those are those are facility costs, and they're the cost of operating and and being able to offer ministry to people. Yep. And so it like this building that we're in now, is a nice building.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:It's it's big. It fits it's maybe a little bit small for our size. Like we could stand to have a little bit more space.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:And, but, like, as a as a responsible financial practice, like, we we made efforts to pay this building off and so it's like debt free. And we we try we have tried over the years to do infrastructure updates to it to make sure that we're protecting our investment, new roofs, new heating system, cooling system, gradually replacing windows, parking lot, you know, things like that so that we can we can use the facility in a way that allows us opportunity to be in ministry Mhmm. To people here in our, you know, in our region. So even the 23% on facilities, I'm like, well, why do you need that? Well, we don't need it.
Luke:Yeah. I mean, we could do church in the dark.
Cameron:Yeah. We can do church in a 10 out front like we
Luke:Like we just did.
Cameron:Like we just did. We can do church a lot of different ways, but just because we have it doesn't necessarily mean that we're somehow, like, not fulfilling our role or purpose of the church because we do have expenses that are similar to or exactly like a business.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:We're not a business primarily. No. We're not. We're we're the community of believers in Jesus Christ here, but we utilize business practices
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:In order to ensure that we're living with integrity as to the resources that have been entrusted to us. Yeah. So we manage our money and we have budgets and we save when we can. We spend a lot of money. A lot of money in ministry and mission of which is included personnel who work directly with people
Luke:Right.
Cameron:For the purposes of their salvation. Yeah. So I will be interested to see what that documentary is like. Yeah. In some of the small clips that I've seen on it, I I do notice that a lot of their criticism not of their criticism.
Cameron:Of their reporting is done towards the Mormon church.
Luke:Oh, really?
Cameron:Yes. Yeah. Which is like I don't know. It's some crazy stuff. Yes.
Cameron:They're like the 4th largest landowner in the United States. Yep.
Luke:Yeah. I remember that.
Cameron:Yeah. And
Luke:they they buy up a lot of land and Yes. And they just kinda hold on to
Cameron:it. Right. And so they're at the the value of their assets is in the 1, 000, 000, 000 of 1, 000, 000, 000 of dollars. Mhmm. But they enjoy
Luke:Tax exempt status. So they own all that property, but don't pay any taxes on. Right. Yeah. It's there's this there's there in this conversation is a really tricky thing is because in some people's minds, like, when, like I don't know.
Luke:If if we were if we were to just walk up, we were dropped out of content. We were not in Jamestown. We were just in some random city, walked up to ran some random person. And we just kinda, like, went up to a line of people and we said, we are pastors. Draw a picture of what you think that means, what we look like, what, like, our lifestyle looks like.
Luke:You'll get 2 very different pictures. 1 would be maybe informed by, like, childhood experience or experience in a local church of, like, that's of small to medium moderate in size. Like, something like us, maybe a little bit smaller, maybe a little bit bigger, but they would kind of draw kind of some sort of picture. That kind of typified by, when my wife started telling people that she was engaged in getting married to a pastor, she got a lot of comments of, like, like, you're never gonna make any money. You're never gonna be able to go on vacations, say goodbye to, like, nice things.
Luke:You know, like, a lot of people made a lot of assumptions that, you know, me and my wife were gonna be, like, 2 steps from, like, being in poverty, being in a cardboard box or something like that. And, that's not true, but that is kind of the extreme of the 1 end is that this, you know, pastors as kind of just average normal people or even people who are sometimes making less than the average person. And then the other end of the spectrum would be people's like, typified by like, oh, well that means you're gonna have like really expensive clothes, and you're gonna have a house that's like a mansion, all paid for by the church, and, like, you're gonna, like, be this kind of, like, minor celebrity and, like, this huge kind of megachurch image that gets painted.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And the thing is, is that the mega church pastor is the minority of pastors Mhmm. But gets the majority of the tension. But what they're saying, what they have in their mind is they're talking about is they're picturing 1 or 2 or 4, celebrity pictures, pastors who come into their mind, right, Who just live these extravagant lifestyles. And what they're ignoring is they're ignoring the other 99% of pastors who make a living salary that's probably around the medium of whatever the community that they live in. Mhmm.
Luke:And that's where this conversation gets kind of polarized, I think. Mhmm. Is wanting to kind of legislate and control or dominate, like, the perceived lifestyle of the minority without any consideration of the majority.
Cameron:Mhmm. I yeah. I I'm not really, like, a single thing to that. I agree
Luke:Yeah. Completely. Yeah. Yeah. I think 1 of the things that I like as people were kind of reacting really strongly to the, like, oh, I can't believe the church spends so little on missions.
Luke:Right? That was 1 of the that was 1 of the sentiments that was expressed in the comments of that video. And you kind of were hinting at it at the beginning kind of with your like, well, is not missions what the church does, period?
Cameron:Right.
Luke:Mhmm. And I do think that we that there's a little bit of a presupposition that is being bought into suddenly. And we've kind of just been talking about it without naming it, but it's this presupposition that the church the church having money is a bad thing. Right. That's kind of this and I think that's maybe brought on by, like, exposes and, like, you know, documentaries and stuff that are highlighting the excesses and the abuses of some of this in certain pastors or certain ministries.
Luke:But it's coming to this just like, oh, well, the church having money is a bad thing. The church it was interesting some of the, some of the comments were just like, wow. Our churches really should be tithing better.
Cameron:Tithing to where?
Luke:Tied tie exactly. That that there's this assumption that the church like, the church having money to spend on ministry, on its goals of advancing the gospel of preaching and discipling and baptizing people and teaching them to obey all things in the name of the lord Jesus Christ Mhmm. Is not a thing. Like, that's not enough. The church needs to also be giving away its money elsewhere.
Luke:I'm not saying that churches can't do that Right.
Cameron:Or
Luke:shouldn't do it. Mhmm. But the assumption that the church should also be, it's kind of this, like, assumption that the church is not enough is not the end goal of the kingdom of God to begin with, and that it has to be going somewhere else.
Cameron:Right. Right. Yeah. I can see that. Yeah.
Cameron:Yeah. I I'm thinking of, like, passages in Acts, the book of Acts, where it's really clear that even, like, from time to time, people sold a plot of land and they brought the money and they placed it at the feet of the apostles. Right. Right? Like that it was pretty well established principle that even from the beginning of the church that they were a receiver Right.
Cameron:Of they they were they were a receiver of funds ostensibly so that they could be a user of funds. Right. Right. So that but it's not as if, like, this we talk about, like, oh, the church has so much money. Mhmm.
Cameron:It's not as if, like, the church just goes out there and does shady business deals and takes it from people. No. Right? At at its core, the church has money because the people who are the church Mhmm. Have determined that the pooling of their resources for the mission of that specified church Mhmm.
Cameron:Is important to them. So they create a kitty Yeah. Essentially. And then they agree upon how that money is going to be spent Yes. In most cases.
Cameron:Right? And in really all cases in some way, shape, or form. And so then they go about spending that money, which is their money.
Luke:Their money.
Cameron:Their money in the way that they've decided is important. Right. To them. Yes. Okay.
Cameron:I guess the question that most people who have a difficulty with this is like, well, doesn't the church guilt people into giving them money? And I would say in all honestly, some churches do. Mhmm. Some pastors do.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:You know, they leverage, they try to leverage the scriptures to include, you know, like a theological belief that that blessing
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:Personal blessing and favor follows those who give extravagantly to the Lord, extravagantly to the church.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Does that happen? Yeah. Of of course.
Luke:But it's not a it's not a vending machine.
Cameron:It's not. No. And it's also not a universal principle. Like you said, it's kind of the same thing as the conversation around, it's kind of the same thing as the conversation around celebrity pastor Mhmm. Salaries.
Cameron:So you can't take the small sample size and apply it to the whole and expect it to be true. Mhmm. Additionally, there are, I learned this in seminary, actually. Yep. I went to seminary in Dayton, Ohio, which has a much higher, which is a much more diverse area than I live and grew up in in Western New York.
Cameron:You know? There's a, greater, greater percentage of Americans that live there.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And, they really wouldn't consider themselves like, there's no no place in Ohio is considered, like, down south. But,
Luke:I mean, we get a little Appalachian.
Cameron:Yeah. But but some of the cultural values
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:In the African American church
Luke:Yes.
Cameron:Are a lot different than cultural values in white churches. And 1 of their cultural values is that their pastors are extraordinarily well paid and are they desire pastors to live what may look like. It's usually not, but what may look like extravagant lifestyles. Yeah. Very well dressed.
Luke:A decent car.
Cameron:Very nice cars. Yeah. Right. Expensive jewelry for pastor and first lady of the church.
Luke:Yep.
Cameron:Right. Not because it's out of like not not because it's out of like greed at all, but because they have a cultural value, which I understand and appreciate. They have a cultural value of of seeing the pastor be honored
Luke:Right.
Cameron:By its congregation, be honored extravagantly in their, salary or payment or whatever to that pastor That they are in keeping with, like, the, the scripture. They are worth they are worthy of double honor.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:They have plowed the grain. Mhmm. So we shouldn't muzzle that ox. He should eat from the grain that he plows from. Right.
Cameron:And and that really in the African American church is not a questioned value at all. No. That's a well accepted value.
Luke:Yeah. Right? And I can even think of the opposite because I have friends who are in the Asian American church, and it is the opposite.
Cameron:It's a vow of poverty.
Luke:It's a vow of poverty. Sure. They're it they they become concerned if their pastors make too much. Like, they would much rather their pastors live at or below where the rest of the congregation makes.
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:And it's not I don't think it's quite as explicit. It kind of just kinda happens that way, at least in at least in the handful of Asian American congregations. I've interacted with with this, which is actually more than more than 3. So I like but it was it true is it was true at each 1. And so it yeah.
Luke:There's a spectrum there. Mhmm. But sorry. I didn't mean to finish.
Cameron:No. III think that that you know, like and I don't I think a lot of white churches maybe kinda fall. I I you you see it. I mean, like, there's thing there's churches of all cultural backgrounds. Yes.
Cameron:All sides of those spectrums, of course. But, and a lot of it is relative as well. Yeah. You know? A pastor living near the poverty line in Southern California who's Asian.
Cameron:Right. High Asian population in Southern California or in the Bay Area, even San Francisco area, whatever. They probably make a lot more than I do. Right. I don't live near the poverty line here.
Cameron:No. But I'm also not, like, considered wealthy. Right. Even close. Yeah.
Cameron:Right. So it's like the perspective geographical areas. Yep. Life situations are all they can all kind of Yeah. They all matter Mhmm.
Luke:In that conversation. What do you say to the person who says, well, pastor should either be by vocational or they should just have another job so that the church does not pay for them, pay them. What do you say to someone who kinda says that? Like, you should be by by vocational so that the church doesn't have to pay you.
Cameron:I would say that is a that's a fair ask
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:As long as the person understands the consequences of a pastor who's not solely focused on ministry in that church. Mhmm. Like, if you're gonna say to your pastor, you need to get another job or you should have another job so the church doesn't pay you, You can't also say to your pastor, we expect you to be at every meeting, to visit everyone in the hospital, to be at the bedside of every sick person or dead person. On call? Yeah.
Cameron:Do every funeral, every wedding, be on call, show up, you know, do the Sunday morning stuff, do the Wednesday evening stuff, run the youth group, like, all of that. Like, you you have to understand that they have a biblical requirement also to provide for their family. Right. And they're just their very own needs by the work of their hands.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:You know? And so if you're gonna say like, yeah, you need to go make your living somewhere else. What you're saying is come do this for free. Mhmm. Which is not a biblical principle.
Cameron:Mhmm. It's not a principle that, even Jesus himself said, you know, that, we see this in Jesus. We see it in Paul Yep. That, you know, do not muzzle the ox as it's treading the grain Mhmm. Which is to say, as the ox runs around treading the grain of the ancient, of ancient in the ancient near east.
Luke:Just pulling a grindstone around and around the circle.
Cameron:Right.
Luke:Don't sweep up the grain so that the mocks can't stop every once in a while and eat a little bit.
Cameron:Right. Because they're doing the work. Mhmm. They're they're they're in the middle of the labor. They deserve part of the fruit of that labor.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:So, I would say that, it's a shortsighted opinion Mhmm. To say to your pastor, you need to go get another job so that you can, so that we don't have to pay you. But that's also a different thing from saying it's a it's a different thing than maybe a pastor who chooses to do that.
Luke:I have I know some pastors who don't even like by vocational ministry. They like to call it co vocational because they see it as part of a mission.
Cameron:Sure.
Luke:They're like, I wanna have 2 vocations, so that I stay connected in the world or they see it as a gift to the church, you know, and that's great. Like, I'm I'm not I'm not trying I wasn't asking the question to dis on, like, that model of church cause I think it works and is the right model for many churches. And many pastors you feel called to it. But you're right.
Cameron:III kinda diss on that model of church.
Luke:I mean, I'm not in it. I'm not in that model.
Cameron:Well, I would say, like, I would say that the only appropriate the only time that that's appropriate is if the pastor chooses that for themselves, not ever if the church chooses that for the pastor. Yeah. But that's my opinion Yeah. My opinion on it. Yeah.
Luke:Well, I mean, it's just like, it's because there are churches that have, like, that pay nobody anything. Mhmm. You know?
Cameron:Are there certain denominations that do that? Is there Yeah. Are there is there a denomination that is like all of their pastors are lay? Yes.
Luke:The Plymouth Brethren. Okay. I think Why do I
Cameron:know someone or we just had a conversation with someone who is like in a denomination where that was the case?
Luke:Ox, my wife, the churches she grew up in, which were Slavic American churches, they typically not like across the board always, but they typically have no staff pastor. They have a single pastor and then they have elders and deacons, but they don't pay any like singular person. And so then they'll have multiple people preach on a Sunday. There's, I think, Quakers.
Cameron:I
Luke:don't even know if Quakers are still around. I think they probably are, just not in large amounts. Hipper church church, like, house church models.
Cameron:Okay. Yeah. I
Luke:don't know if those are still thriving, but that kind of model was similar to, you know, they generally had kind of convictions around that as well. Right. Kind of destructure the church.
Cameron:Mhmm. So I feel like I was actually having a conversation with someone who ascribed to that model or Right. It'll come to me.
Luke:It's, I mean, it's it's it's different. It's it's going to come, like you said, with different expectations. Like, the church as a whole is gonna have to carry more of the burden.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:Like, as a whole, you know, you the expectations around what your pastors will and will be will not be able to do. Mhmm. Simply because of, you know, the fact that they have full time jobs Sure. In order to pay for themselves. It's gonna make a it's gonna make an impact on the way it kinda functions.
Luke:So
Cameron:Yeah. Yeah. So I I the whole conversation is, you know, it can be pretty extensive, pre be pretty I was doing, like, for this morning, I was doing I was I was doing budgeting here
Luke:Mhmm. For
Cameron:us. Like, I was looking at our budget, looking at
Luke:Seeing how we're doing so far?
Cameron:Yep.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:Just seeing what the numbers are because, you know, we're literally halfway through the year.
Luke:I know. It was like August we're supposed to start
Cameron:budgeting for the Yeah.
Luke:The next year. So yeah. Which goes which by the way, our budget goes before the leadership team Mhmm. Which is made out of people who are part of the congregation Mhmm. Who's in a proved budget.
Cameron:Correct. Right?
Luke:It's not Yeah. You and I just writing blank checks.
Cameron:Right. Approve the spending, approve personnel costs, approve all of that. Yeah. So, so, yeah, like, it was part of my work today as pastor and just preparing for a meeting later this week that I'll have to present some of that information to the congregation. Yeah.
Cameron:And, but, Yeah. I think quest or conversations like this are important because often it's things are kind of shrouded in a veil of mystery and questions Yeah. And, like, information that's just not that's it's not just it's just not nuanced, I think, enough. Yeah. And so big bold statements can be made but that are not necessarily true.
Cameron:Like, oh my gosh, they just this church just pays 50% of all its money to people. Doesn't even do ministry with it. I think that that's a it's just a weird it's it's a statement that's really misleading.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:Because it's I don't know. It's a it like, it when you say it that way, like, oh my gosh. We're just giving money to the staff?
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:Well, no. You're paying the staff to do things
Cameron:Right.
Luke:To, like, perform duties as assigned
Cameron:To carry out ministry.
Luke:Which yeah. Which those include, you know, praying for people, preaching the word, running your con your kids' ministry, like, any number of things that are ministry oriented.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And, like, it's not like you're literally just like the we don't just walk in here and say, all right, I'm here to pick up my check, And then we just walk back out.
Cameron:Right.
Luke:And then we do not do anything.
Cameron:Yeah. Just work for 4 hours on Sunday and that's it.
Luke:That's it. That's all we really do. We just watch YouTube the rest of the week. Right. We don't do anything else.
Cameron:Well, if you I mean, if you guys have any our listeners out there, viewers have any other questions about stuff like this or clarifications maybe, always shoot them our way either on our text line, 716-201-0507. Can't believe I remember that after a month off. Or drop them in the comments here. As always, if you would share this episode or the podcast with other people, you can like it and whatever platform that you're listening to it or rate it. Subscribe, comment, do all the things.
Cameron:That'd be a great help, and, we'll, catch you next week.
