Marriage - What is a covenant anyways?

[00:00:00] Cameron: One of the first questions that I ask couples when they come to me for premarital counseling, is to describe to me the most present,

relationship that they had growing up.

The one they saw the most often, uh, usually it's the parents.

And sometimes it is, you know, they see it in its broken state. It's the tendency is to carry the lessons that we learn by what we see into our new relationships, not just in marriage, but in any relationship.

Welcome to the uncut podcast I'm pastor

[00:00:40] Cameron: I'm Pastor Cameron. And

[00:00:41] Luke: this is the uncut podcast where we have honest uncut conversations about faith life and ministry

[00:00:49] Cameron: Welcome back.

Welcome

[00:00:50] Luke: back

we

had a Unplanned hiatus from the From the podcast. So if you haven't seen us for a while, it's because we haven't been here for a while

[00:01:04] Cameron: Mm-Hmm. , yeah. Did a little change of the room here. Yeah. Um, set up is a little bit different. And do a new table so we can use this space as a dual purpose space now.

[00:01:16] Luke: Yeah, so the It was mostly just a, it was a spare room we were using as podcasting and it turned into a bit of storage, but now it's functioning in a lot of different ways and I kind of like it that way. So,

[00:01:30] Cameron: Had a few of you ask us where we've been, where the podcast has been, not where we've been. We've still been here doing ministry and been living life and

[00:01:39] Luke: of life.

[00:01:40] Cameron: doing the best that we can

[00:01:41] Luke: Mm hmm.

[00:01:42] Cameron: in all areas and in a really busy, uh, Summer season and beginning of fall season. We just, something needed to give somewhere.

And for us, I guess that was the podcast. So

[00:01:53] Luke: was the podcast. just could not make it happen. There were other important things that came up or had to be happening.

they kind of all clumped together. And then I think we kind of entered a really busy and life. And it just, it was the thing that just kind of sat on the

back burner for the time

[00:02:17] Cameron: So appreciate those who have actually asked, Hey, are you going to record any more podcasts? Are there any more episodes coming out and told us that you valued it? So that's helpful for me at least in knowing whether or not it's a thing that I put my time and effort towards.

Um, I want it to be value added.

[00:02:38] Luke: Yeah. Well, and we're gonna be, um, we were thinking about how this fits into our, you know, our lives and all this, and so we've kind of revamped a little bit of how the podcast will function as it kind of goes forward.

You know, just not so much that the nature of our conversations are gonna change, or the way we're having them is changing too terribly much, but we think we're. We're going to try a method where we're going to cover kind of a large kind of topic for a series of episodes. maybe those episodes be a little bit shorter and a little bit more digestible.

We'll see how good we are at that, but we kind of want to experiment with that rather than doing kind of one or two episodes at most on a topic, but maybe kind of stretch it out over a broader for a time. going to try that method.

I think it fits what's. Some of the things that we wanna talk about

[00:03:36] Cameron: I think so too. Yeah, you'll just have to understand that we Even though the The episodes get released weekly. Yeah. We're not actually wearing the same outfit.

[00:03:49] Luke: no. Cameron and I are not wearing these two flannels, uh, that we're wearing right now every week of the month.

[00:03:57] Cameron: You know, I was really close to wearing my buffalo plaid flannel.

Today

[00:04:01] Luke: been on point. Um,

[00:04:02] Cameron: so.

[00:04:04] Luke: So,

yeah, we're recording it all at once to kind of keep a thorough conversation going, but uh, kind of breaking it up, uh, to make it a little bit more digestible and have it fit into our schedules a bit So.

Yeah. I think that's all we have to say as far as the big picture of the podcast, so we can really get into the meat of what we're gonna talk

[00:04:27] Cameron: about.

Let's do it.

So, we spent, um, We spent a little bit of time this summer and the beginning of the fall planning um A marriage conference here the first marriage conference that we've done at conduit um and Uh, and so now that that's kind of behind us

Um, it was Two weekends ago.

two

weekends ago and um, I thought Well,

um, it was received well and the content was good.

And so I thought maybe we would spend a good bulk of our time over the next few episodes talking about some of the

[00:05:15] Luke: Mm-Hmm.

[00:05:15] Cameron: um, and some of the topics that got brought up and maybe didn't get a lot of airtime at the conference itself.

[00:05:26] Luke: Yeah.

'cause it was really just Friday night and then most of Saturday. Yeah. But like really that's not for as many things that can and do come up when you talk about marriage and relationships.

a ton.

[00:05:40] Cameron: A ton that we couldn't, yeah, we just couldn't get to. And even if you like remembering some of the questions that we got, we did a q and a session at the end and we had people fill out cards and put the card the questions in, and. Like we were only able to field really a handful of them and even in that it was impossible to do them justice.

So it almost felt to me, I walked away actually from the conference feeling like, I don't know about you, but I felt like, Oh, it feels like there is an energy in the room. Around some of this stuff around all of it really But there's an energy in the room around it and some By energy, I mean interest like people are they're where they're they were hungry.

They were hungry for more of it Also representing recognizing that couldn't give more in that environment um But I walked away feeling like how Do we do the more?

[00:06:41] Luke: Yeah, because it was definitely, for me, it was an indicate, like, because we've done Q& A stuff around the church and different things, even here in the podcast and things like that, and we usually get some response for asking, like, hey, send us your questions, But it's huge. It's never an overwhelming amount of people. questions. usually like a small trickle

time. And so when we, you said we were going to do Q and A, I was like, Oh, I was half suspecting that, you know, before the Q and A I might have to get on Google and search common marriage questions or

[00:07:14] Cameron: something like that Mm-Hmm.

[00:07:15] Luke: to kind of fluff up some of the questions.

But we got like I don't know just a massive

[00:07:22] Cameron: Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm.

[00:07:24] Luke: of like, you know, note cards of questions

[00:07:29] Cameron: It's like two pages, front and back of questions.

[00:07:32] Luke: yeah, it was definitely like we hit a place where people Are feeling like they want to have some conversations where they have questions where there's things that they're wrestling through We're not talking about something that's disconnected from a lot of people's lives

[00:07:47] Cameron: right right so I mean between us We have a combined 22 years of marriage experience

[00:07:56] Luke: go.

[00:07:57] Cameron: Um,

and so we're not experts. Um, but I thought we would talk about

Some of the main topics like biblical foundations for healthy marriages, sex, which was a big question.

[00:08:13] Luke: a big

[00:08:14] Cameron: It was a lot of questions around sex, um, patterns, patterns in marriage, patterns to avoid.

I want to talk about patterns to. Pursue.

[00:08:28] Luke: Yes,

That was one of the things, we'll talk about it probably in one of the future episodes here, but like, I wanted to talk about more, um, 'cause I think one of the things I admire about some of the stuff you were sharing was the, um, positive rituals of connection Yeah. That you and Sherry have established over your guys' marriage.

I'm like, that's cool. And I

think we get. Busy and it's easy for us to kind of overlook or feel almost embarrassed when we set like These like positive rituals to

[00:09:00] Cameron: with our

[00:09:01] Luke: wives and or our husbands or whatever. Um, whatever but you know what I mean? Um, and so I think

that's

[00:09:08] Cameron: I Mean I honestly believe like not going into that too much right now, but I honestly believe that it is Even those small thing some of those small things that I talked about at the conference that those positive patterns of connection that have really sustained our marriage in the midst of You Some really, really difficult seasons and experiences and transitions, like transitions between churches, then a big transition out of our denomination to come to here, then a big transition to become parents in the manner that we did become parents.

And then some really big, like difficult circumstances here at Conduit and like. Anyway, I think it's stuff like that that has really, that really, if someone were to say, you know, well, what is like, how did you guys get through that together or like parenting? I'd be like, honestly, like if we didn't have those times together, I could see it very easily becoming, you know, easy to drift apart or create our own identities or But yeah, talk about that kind of stuff. Uh, so patterns to Avoid as well as patterns to pursue and then some of those rituals rituals for connection I think that's actually what we were talking about there. So um but um I guess Where I would like to start is kind of like a rationale You know, you might be listening and you didn't attend the marriage conference and that's You Fine.

We hope that you will attend future ones. Um, but I, I would kind of like to start by talking about just the rationale for the conference in like it's approach

and why I wanted it to feel different than other conferences. Uh, not that they're bad. They're really, you know, good. But the difference, at least the difference that I wanted to try and capture, was the difference between a tools based conference and like an emotional health based

So What was what is like the what's the definable difference there?

Well, like when we go to some marriage conferences, you'll go and you'll like sit in session five tools to healthy communication or like something like

[00:11:56] Luke: They usually like I mean I I think I've heard this like 10 gazillion times and this is actually my first to But I know that it's everywhere over the internet It's like the number like I think it's probably one of the number one recommended marriage advices when you're having a conflict use a I language, you language like something like that.

So you end up hearing a lot of tips and tricks.

[00:12:22] Cameron: I'm sick of your crap. That like that? Yeah.

[00:12:27] Luke: that.

[00:12:29] Cameron: that works, right?

I'm

[00:12:31] Luke: supposed to use, I am feeling

[00:12:33] Cameron: I am feeling sick of your crap.

[00:12:35] Luke: There we go.

[00:12:38] Cameron: Yeah, so there's like this, there's a super like tool based skill based things. Good, good advice out there. It's good. But there's so much of that that I feel like we don't get the other stuff.

We don't get the stuff that's like, all right. Um, either you're in a pattern of self-awareness where you're like, I'm not really an emotionally healthy person right now.

Mm-Hmm. , I don't know how to deal with my anger, or I close down, or I avoid, or I, I'm avoidant or I'm, I have an anxious kind of type of personality or, um, or, I am really straightforward. And opinionated and it creates, and my partner shuts down. Like, where does that, that is, that's all part of communication.

Yeah. But all of those, the way that we communicate and the way that we interact with people comes from somewhere, you know, it comes from who we are as people and not just who we are as people. Well, yeah, who we are as people, but, and then the further understanding of that is. What were the things that formed who we are as people?

[00:13:55] Luke: Yeah. Yeah. There was a lot of conversation at the marriage conference around story, understanding who we are and like, How, where we've been and what we've gone through is impacting what we're doing now and where we're And then a lot of emotional health based, internal, understanding what's going in our heart, mind and soul when we're shutting down, when we're stonewalling or when we're overreacting

[00:14:27] Cameron: Right, right.

One of the first questions that I asked, that I ask couples when they come to me for premarital counseling, is to describe to me the most present,

relationship that they had growing up. And I don't mean present as in like emotionally healthy present. I mean, just the one that's closest in proximity to you,

[00:14:53] Luke: they saw the most

[00:14:54] Cameron: the one they saw the most often, uh, usually it's the parents.

And sometimes it is, you know, they see it in its broken state. So. That would have been my, that'd be my story, right? The most, the one that I saw the most often was the brokenness of my parents marriage. And so that obviously had an effect on me and I carried, you know, it's the tendency is to carry the lessons that we learn by what we see into our new relationships, not just in marriage, but in any relationship.

So understanding how we're formed. What, um, and then asking questions like, well, what are, what from that relationship, what from that marriage do you want to carry into your marriage? What from that marriage do you want to make sure you never carry? Do you have the self awareness to recognize those things?

[00:15:53] Luke: you're, you're doing a little bit of baggage inventory and then deciding what in the interim of having done this podcast, me and my wife moved, right?

And we're packing everything up and we're doing the, and even now we got to a point where we just shoved everything in boxes and moved. Um, but now as we're moving

Yeah

but now,

[00:16:13] Cameron: Now

[00:16:14] Luke: as we're in our house and like things are in a garage, we're slowly moving them to the house. We open up a box and we're like. Do we need this stuff? Do we want to actually find a home for this in our new house together, or do we need to throw it out or do we need to,

[00:16:30] Cameron: or are we indecisive about the things that we have?

So we close them up and make a decision on their time.

[00:16:34] Luke: another time? Yeah, right. There's a gazillion different ways we can make this into an analogy for

[00:16:38] Cameron: Oh man, I love this. And I'm using this

[00:16:41] Luke: Yeah, do use it. I think it's a great one because you know, we bring things kind of like, you know, we show up to our marriage. And I think we even talked about this in our, um, previous episodes we did about marriage, but you show up to your marriage and you've brought baggage of expectations.

Maybe you grew up in a household where we'll take like a, Oh, okay. Like an easy one is like, Oh, did you grow up in a household? Where the wife or your mom or the family that you watched the wife always was the wife's role to always cook Um and manage everything all kitchen and the husband did all the yard work, right?

And that's the expectation whereas your partner might have grown up in a household where No, like just whoever is available did those things. It was a shared thing. There wasn't like a, Oh, the, the dad never cooked in the whatever. Like it was more flexible. And if you come into that and you guys haven't talked about that, you're going to encounter some friction when the one spouse is like, Hey, how come you're never helping me in the kitchen? you're, you just seem so uninterested in doing the dishes. He's like, well, I thought that was a thing you were going to Why did you think that was going to be a thing I did? You know? Right? You have to talk about that and decide how you're going to unpack

[00:18:07] Cameron: Yeah, you're the keynote speaker at the next marriage conference all about packing baggage So anyway, that was a long way to say that we wanted to talk about And focus on some of the things that maybe don't get focused on all the time marriage conferences and my personality whenever I'm talking about things is I want to try and start at the lowest level possible, like the foundational level.

Like, okay, what is the thing that we're going to build

off of? And, and any tools that we have that we build off of, um, when we're talking about marriage, at least from the Christian perspective, is marriage as covenant. And what is a, like, what is the nature of covenant, um, in scripture? And what are the functions of covenant?

How is covenant, how is a covenantal view of marriage different from say a contractual, contractual view of marriage, which is typically the way in which People approach marriage now, even if they don't

[00:19:29] Luke: say it out loud,

[00:19:31] Cameron: that that's what it is

So we started by just trying to get a sense of what covenant is

And how like how the idea of covenant

pertains to marriage or is marriage.

So I'm like, I'm just curious from someone who like, I guess for lack of a better term, attended the conference, how you felt about that approach. Um, and as someone who's like relatively newly married still, how you felt about that approach and what was like, was there anything. Impactful around that idea of Starting at the place of marriage as covenant that was helpful moving forward in it.

[00:20:29] Luke: Yeah. You know, I think it's really important because the thing that kind of really clicked for me, and I think was really important, was that covenant has to be in place in order for there to Um, it has to be like, it has to be understood that,

like,

You know, it's,

we're

both in a boat, right?

And we're like, you know, we're, we're trying to figure this out, navigate the storms. Uh, but if one person, you know, has got a little life raft ready,

and

the minute anything gets too scary, they're going to hop into the life raft and row away and leave you alone in the boat. You're not going to feel, you're not going to trust the other person

Because

you're going to be banking.

You're going to be like, when's the other person going to jump? When's the other person going to leave? When's like, I can't, I can't say this or share this or be vulnerable in this way because my partner is not as committed to being in this relationship as I am. And I could do something that would away. Um, and so the need for Covenant for so that both people can show up fully and then have like we talked a lot about honesty Right and hope

and have that place where we can have honesty about The mess we're in maybe, or the difficulties that we're experiencing, but then almost be slightly more, slightly less about those things about the state of a marriage or the state of the way things are operating so that you can actually deal with the externalized problems rather than internalizing them in a Me versus you So I don't know that it was very approachable answer to question, but that was why I thought that like covenant was super important because we're just in this, like, so like one of the things that's been kind of striking me, it was really funny. So. Um, relatively recently, um, I'm, this is, this is me being very vulnerable on the podcast.

Um, my wife slash I, along with her, watch Love is Blind on Netflix, is a reality TV show.

Cameron

is laughing at me if you're listening to the podcast and you now. But, um, It's a reality TV show, right? Where they meet without seeing the other person propose to and they get, and then they go out into the quote unquote real world, they operate, they see each other and then they try and like plan their marriage, meet their families and do all these things.

Within the course, I think the whole show takes in under like two months the moment they meet each other behind a wall and decide to go on all these blind dates

[00:23:45] Cameron: could go wrong?

[00:23:45] Luke: What could go wrong guys? Like, why is that not a great way for people to meet? Anyways, um, and it, so it was really interesting.

We went to the marriage conference talking about really healthy marriages and all this stuff. went home and watched an episode of love is blind. And we're like, Oh, Oh, that's what they were talking about. Like seeing the opposite example. Um, But like the thing that really strikes me in a lot of the conversations that end up being had on this reality tv show quote unquote but like is how contractual everybody so like they'll they'll inevitably almost every couple or at least one or a couple a couple couples a season have the conversation about finances.

And they say, so how do you want to split finances? Like say maybe I pay for the bills or for some of the bills and then you pay for like the groceries. Like, so they're talking about like dividing up like costs and expenses and they're like, well, I'll pay for this and pay. And they all then go, Oh, I'm so glad that's the way you want it.

Oh, I'm glad that you want to pitch in. They always like are so afraid that one of them doesn't want to pitch into the bills for some reason.

And

I'm like, So confused that they're like, you're pitching in what? Like,

what are

you talking about? Your finances, my finances, like almost, I could be wrong, but almost, I don't think I've ever seen a couple on the show have the assumption of.

Well, when we get married, it's not my finances and your finances. It's our finances. We're going to join accounts and we're going to like, there is no such thing as your money, my money. We make these things together. No one has that understanding. They're all like with this contractual, okay. How are we going to split the costs of living relatively 50, 50 or equal.

And like, it's just very contractual all the way have a very low.

[00:25:48] Cameron: View.

yes, they on the show,

Yeah well someone very close to me in my life also watches Love is Blind. So I can't compare it to be super self righteous with that. I don't watch it, but that's neither here. Yes, I don't. That's neither here nor there. Um, yeah, so I, I think that in some ways the covenant can best be described in its, in the differences between it and contractual marriage. Um, but that doesn't mean that covenant is not. indefinable or undefinable either. Some of the examples that we have early in scripture, like the covenant that God makes with Noah, where God tells Noah, I will not flood the earth like this again. Um, and I will not destroy all humanity through flood or however the language is.

And then he says, here's a rainbow. It's the sign of the covenant. You know, so, and then another example, you know, in Genesis 12 through like 17 is the covenant that God makes with Abraham and his descendants. I will be your God. You will be my people.

[00:27:16] Luke: is the land,

[00:27:17] Cameron: is the land. This is what I will do. This is what I will do.

This is what I will do.

Um,

and just as two examples, right? So. So there's a, there's a component of covenant that is declarative about what God will do. Like I am going to do this and it is in many ways, irrespective of how the other person shows up,

like here is what I'm going to do. God says, matter of fact.

Not only am I going to do that, I'm going to give you a sign that helps you to remember the covenant that I've made with you. So that every time you see the sign, or you're like, around the sign, you remember my faithfulness to you. maintain my word to you. That's why when we're driving in the car and it's raining and the sun is shining and you look out the window with your kids and you see a rainbow, most of us say, Oh, what does the rainbow mean?

And we're not talking about like, Oh, well, the curvature of the earth is the sun is shining through the rain. Yeah. Right. Yeah, all the science y stuff, right? That's not what we mean. We say, what does the rainbow mean? What we usually mean is that, oh, that was God's sign to Noah. God signed to Noah that what?

He's never going to destroy the earth through flood again. So even now, The sign of the rainbow main, like reminds us of God's faithfulness. It reminds us of the promise sign or the covenant with Abraham, the sign with circumcision, all the way to through to the Jewish nation, even today from maintains the sign of the covenant for God's people in the promised land.

Um, and so

covenants were

declarative statements and that, that's why we, that's why we, um, when we take vows.

[00:29:28] Luke: right at. Mm hmm. It's there's no Like when you get up there you picture your wedding bride groom priest or pastor in between

say, you know repeat after me.

I Luke

will take as my bride, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, to have and to hold in sickness and wealth, sicker or poorer, but there's no clause of like, if there's no, if statements, if then statements,

[00:29:59] Cameron: They're all absolutely declarative.

Here's what I will do. I will love and cherish. To have and to hold from this day forward for better for worse for richer for poorer and sickness and health Until we are parted by death and then at least in my ceremonies the last part of my vow is Repeat after me. This is my solemn vow not

Here's what I expect out of

[00:30:24] Luke: right

[00:30:26] Cameron: Here's what here's what you need to do in order for me to maintain my You love relationship with you. Don't everything that I stand before you and say right now is me vowing what I will do, where, how I will show up, how I will conduct myself no matter what you do.

[00:30:49] Luke: Mm hmm

[00:30:49] Cameron: Um, We could talk about the limits to even those statements as well, because they're all, are biblical limits to those things. Um, but in that way, covenant is a way in which we declare, um, what, who we are going to be, how we are going to show up.

And even as we like move through the biblical narrative and we get to. You know, the time of Jesus, Matthew chapter 19, Jesus, you know, talking about, talks about marriage, talks about divorce, but, um, so, you know, and he says, and this, and for this reason, a man will leave his family and a woman will leave her family and they will be united together.

The two will become one flesh. And then Jesus himself says. Those whom God has joined together. Let no man separate. So Jesus recognizes that it is God who brings male and female together in Covenant marriage. Like, well, how, you know, like could Jesus possibly know he wasn't even married? I think Jesus had a pretty good bead on God's design for all things, even things that he maybe did not personally experience.

Um, and so we, um, we, we do believe that marriage is, is That marriage is a covenant,

Now the difference there is like you already talked about the whole love is blind phenomena What is what is marriage? When what is marriage as contract because everyone I said this at the conference as well No one that I have ever met or married.

has been like, uh, yeah, our marriage is a contract

[00:32:51] Luke: Yeah. No, it's it's not like a You know, people don't, aren't walking up to the aisle, opening up their phone, saying, I have read and reviewed the statement of agreement of the marriage. I hear by clicking this button, You know, like it's, that's not the way we, at least in practice, talk about or approach marriage, but that might be how it plays out sometimes.

[00:33:14] Cameron: So

what is a contract a contract is like, okay I will do this You will do that,

[00:33:22] Luke: right?

[00:33:23] Cameron: If you break your end of the deal Or I break my end of the deal Then I'm freed from the contract and I don't have to like uh, and like you're in the wrong and I'm in the right so like it's a it becomes a

In in juxtaposition to a covenant it come it Becomes something that like a I am watching how you respond or how you live in order to know how I am Should

[00:33:56] Luke: We end up policing the other person.

[00:34:01] Cameron: Yeah. 'cause it, that's a part of the contract is making sure that the other person holds, end up their end of the bargain.

Mm-Hmm. . So it would be like something like, a co a Covenant would say, I will be patient with A contract would say, I will be patient with as long as you are patient with me.

I will be kind to you, as long as you are kind to me, and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And if you're not patient with me, guess what? I do not have to be patient with you.

[00:34:37] Luke: Right. Well, it's just like, if you walk up to Starbucks, you order a drink and they say, okay, pay. And you're like, well, no, I'm not paying. Well, they're not giving you your drink.

Right.

[00:34:50] Cameron: you enter into a contract. Right.

[00:34:52] Luke: or say you pay, and then they're like, Nah, we're just not gonna give you your drink.

[00:34:56] Cameron: Yeah.

[00:34:57] Luke: You know. They've broken, you know, a very, a contract that some of us go through every single day.

[00:35:03] Cameron: Right.

Right. So now

some people kind of attack this understanding of. Cup, like the difference between covenant and contract by saying, by labeling it as an environment where abuse can happen,

you know, like, what do you mean? Like, irrespective of what they do, I must maintain my posture towards them.

Well, yes, but also no.

[00:35:47] Luke: You

[00:35:49] Cameron: You know, there are exceptions to that, you know

The exceptions are limited There but they're never actually exceptions to your character

[00:36:02] Luke: Mm

[00:36:03] Cameron: There are exceptions that affect the relationship But not to whether or not I have to maintain Christlike character towards the person. So the most obvious exception to the maintenance of the covenant, no matter what is adultery,

um, and someone who is like who

doesn't like this idea of covenant as marriage would say, okay, so if my spouse cheats on me.

in an adulterous relationship or whatever, has an affair. Um, because I made a covenant, To, you know, um, in good times and bad, then I have to stay with them. And if I don't, then I'm the one that's breaking the covenant. Um,

[00:37:06] Luke: well see.

Yeah. Right. That's the, that's the straw man.

[00:37:11] Cameron: That's the straw man.

Right. And what the, what I would say is that no, the person who has committed adultery. Yes. Has broken. the covenant. What's the

[00:37:25] Luke: two Flesh should become one. The adultery broke that reality.

[00:37:31] Cameron: Correct. It no longer exists. Right.

[00:37:33] Luke: And so the separation, the divorce.

Is the consequence the breaking

And then if we extrapolate that, we can extrapolate that to other instances that are not necessarily adultery. So we can talk about like abuse, both, both physical, where you are

[00:38:00] Cameron: abandonment,

[00:38:03] Luke: um, where you are so harmful. To the other person in the covenant that you are breaking the That's the way I talk about it.

And so and that and that's because you know I've had those conversations where not somebody's just trying to attack but somebody is in they they believe in this um Reality of covenant so strongly That they end up feeling trapped

Because they're like well, I don't want to be the one that leaves my husband And I'm like, your husband

[00:38:38] Cameron: left you,

[00:38:39] Luke: left you spiritually.

He left the covenant when Like, so you are not the one breaking the And that's a, that's a reality that doesn't get talked about. Doesn't get touched on is like, um, and, and some people who are trying to be very faithful to the Bible and to God and to Christ can get trapped in that.

And so I think it is

[00:39:05] Cameron: Well, and, and two things in regards to that, it's not wrong to stay

[00:39:13] Luke: right?

[00:39:15] Cameron: Just if your partner has broken covenant through, just continue with the example of adultery. If you're covered, if your partner has broken the covenant with adultery, It's not wrong for you to stay.

[00:39:28] Luke: Yeah

[00:39:31] Cameron: It's also not wrong for you to leave.

[00:39:35] Luke: Mm hmm

[00:39:37] Cameron: It's not, it's not, it's not a, like, there's not one right answer there. It is okay to leave. It is also okay to stay

because even though covenants can be broken in that way,

I believe. In the meta narrative of hope, and reconciliation, and redemption, and forgiveness in scripture.

Just as much as I believe in the meta narrative of covenant.

[00:40:12] Luke: Yeah.

[00:40:13] Cameron: And, covenants that are broken

can be re established.

Um, but, I think, A lot of the angstiness about the conversation around covenant marriage comes from people who have, maybe one way is that people who have experienced Christians, Christian leaders, pastors who have said, no, even though you're being abused,

even though your spouse is habitually cheating on you or whatever.

You have to stay in this relationship. You have made this covenant. And if you leave, you will be,

[00:41:01] Luke: you're the

[00:41:02] Cameron: you will be at fault. You will be,

[00:41:05] Luke: even though they're the behavior. They're the one the other spouse is the one who's perpetrating the behavior. That's sinful

[00:41:11] Cameron: and while

I think, while some, I, I, while I Accept that some Christian leaders and pastors believe that. I don't um, and I don't particularly feel like the scripture supports that either.

[00:41:31] Luke: I find that when, when I have these conversations with couples or particularly with one part of the couple and they're wrestling with, do I stay or do I go? My spouse has broken the covenant. I feel like I enter into this very tender, very fragile space where They're kind of, they can kind of look to me and they say, like, what do I

[00:41:59] Cameron: do I do?

[00:42:00] Luke: And I'm like, I have to walk the line of giving them freedom of choice in that moment, not pushing them in one direction or the other, because I don't want to make them stay. And then them say, well, Pastor Luke, pastor Luke told me to stay. To stay. Yeah. Mm-Hmm.

And I was like, I cannot make them, if they choose the way of suffering, the way of Christ, they choose to stay in a sense of hope and a sense of redemption.

that's, that's a choice that they have to

.And,

And there's no guarantee that that's going to work out the they want it to, I want it to, has to be a choice they make. If they choose to walk away because of the reality of what's been broken, the consequences of sin, um, for their own health, of themselves, perhaps their children, their family, their future, um, To see what God's going to do out in their next chapter.

That has to be a choice they make. It has to be something they decide. And I feel like this incredible weight, because people want answers from pastors a lot of time to give like the God stamp and I, it's really tricky to just say, these are the ways you can go, I'm going to support and be your pastor each way,

[00:43:20] Cameron: Yep,

[00:43:20] Luke: but I cannot make this choice for

[00:43:22] Cameron: right? What would you say? Um When there is a couple married couple one of them Is working really hard to live by covenantal standards. And the other is working really hard live by contractual standards. What I've like, um, usually, usually this comes about with like, you have a believing spouse and you have an unbelieving spouse

and the contractual partner really doesn't have Any problem with the arrangement, but the covenantal partner is really struggling in the marriage and is wondering, like maybe covenant hasn't been broken,

[00:44:20] Luke: right?

No, they're just,

[00:44:22] Cameron: it's just, just, the, rough

it's just miserable.

[00:44:25] Luke: yeah, they're both miserable. They're neither are getting their needs or wants met.

[00:44:29] Cameron: Yeah.

So, um, I think that is. Um, that, that is a,

a stream of this that we don't always talk about. Um, it's not readily talked about. Um, and cause I don't know, I'm trying to, I'm trying to determine whether or not I believe this statement is true or not, but I think, you Oh, I want it to say, I want it to sound something like the nature of biblical covenant actually takes two people.

[00:45:11] Luke: Well,

um, I can think some things that I've been thinking about covenant as we've been having this I can think of the Abrahamic covenant, or at least the second part of it, where Abraham falls asleep, God makes the covenant on himself, irredependent of in contrast to the Mosaic Mosaic covenant comes with, um,

stipulations, right? I will be your God, but you must be my people. You will flourish in the land so as long as you keep my People and the rest of the story of the Old Testament is Israel failing

[00:45:56] Cameron: Right. Do you think i'm in

[00:45:57] Luke: and then what happens? They are removed from the land, from the promised land.

So that was a covenant where there were.

[00:46:04] Cameron: yeah

[00:46:05] Luke: Con, I don't wanna say contractual elements 'cause I don't think that undo undoes the nature of covenant, what you're saying here. But there were stipulations, there were points to it. And if you didn't do that, this is not gonna

happen. but here here's getting to my getting to my question though, is that like, well, did it, so let's just say the Israelites knew that they were entering into. They, they knew the, the extraordinary nature of the relationship that they were entering And so whether or not they broke the stipulations of the covenant is neither here nor there. They entered into it understanding that it was covenant relationship. Abraham, on the other hand, is asleep. fell into his deep sleep

the second half of

[00:46:57] Cameron: for a second. Yeah. And so God walked through the sacrificed animal

In between

the two halves alone, but we're not God,

[00:47:07] Luke: Right.

[00:47:08] Cameron: a husband or a man and a woman, they're not God.

So can one person at the marriage walk through in between the two halves of the sacrificed animals

[00:47:21] Luke: and the other not

[00:47:22] Cameron: the other not

[00:47:23] Luke: I think so. I think the, I think the overall narrative of the epistles in the New Testament have a ethic of being Christ So like almost all the household codes, all the passages that deal with, uh, um, Christians who are married to an unbelieving spouse are all written with this same ethic of not necessarily like, Oh, we need to change the situation.

I find myself in to be the ideal, but saying. Where do I find myself?

[00:48:03] Cameron: How do

[00:48:03] Luke: I be Christ here? Mm-Hmm. . And that's the ethic. That's, that's there's, um, and so I think there's something that, that's part, I think that points us in the direction. Yeah. I, I do think so.

[00:48:18] Cameron: think so too.

[00:48:20] Luke: It's not a great, it's not a wonderful situation.

[00:48:24] Cameron: No, obviously, yeah. Obviously it's like a, you know, it's a extraordinary painful situation.

In fact, I would dare say that it's even worse than both parties being contractual.

[00:48:36] Luke: Right.

[00:48:37] Cameron: Um, because there's this yearning and longing. For what could be greater in marriage, but the other person is hard hearted towards it. Um, or even just unaware of the possibility of

existence.

[00:48:54] Luke: In a

[00:48:58] Cameron: a situation where one is contractual

[00:49:02] Luke: and the other is contractual. We're, we're both frustrated. We're both like, this is not, um, you know, like you said, the covenant is not being broken, but they're both miserable.

[00:49:18] Cameron: well, for me to answer that question is a little bit like the difficulty that we had with answering the Q and A's, uh, at the conference was that like each situation is so highly nuanced that it becomes difficult to have one answer.

Pat answer from across all situations with the exception of saying that I do still think it's important. Like I would generally one lead them back to the place of establishing how they view their marriage, how they view marriage. Like what, why are you married? What is the purpose of marriage to try to determine one how they are approaching like

if it's like, Oh, I want a friend and partner and I want to have some guilt free sex.

And I want to like, you know, have someone to help raise my kids. And you know, like, okay, there's like, we got to determine why you're doing, even doing to begin with, to determine what the issues are. Sometimes people just so fully talk past each other that they Um, they don't maybe realize that they actually agree on more than they think they do.

Right. Um, they're just not listening. So it really just is dependent, but, um, I like fully agree with what you said just a few minutes ago that especially, I don't, I don't really have much to tell the contractual partner, to be honest with you. What do you say?

[00:50:57] Luke: do you

[00:51:03] Cameron: heart hearted They're not interested in it. Yeah, like.

[00:51:05] Luke: No, like I will show up for her or him as much as they show up for me. If they're not meeting one of my needs, I'm not going to meet one of their

like that.

[00:51:17] Cameron: Yeah, I mean, maybe you try to paint a picture of. More hopeful and a better future because they're probably frustrated too

But my my main

My main encouragement is for the person who's

[00:51:34] Cameron: Approaching marriage covenantally, but who has just a contractual partner to not Sacrifice the character of Christ in them Because the other person Doesn't want anything to do with that. Um, that's not a very, that's not always a very comforting position to be in because it is a position of sacrifice and humility and service death to myself. It's a lot easier to die to myself when the other partners dying to themselves as well.

When we're both dying together, it just becomes a loop of mutual service.

Um, You know? Right.

[00:52:20] Luke: And that's the thing is that the, world gets really scared of covenant because it says, well, what if the other And

the moment you start asking that question of what was the other person going to love and serve

[00:52:38] Cameron: Mm-Hmm.

[00:52:40] Luke: the biblical covenant starts to break down because the image and the, what it's, portrays there is that mutual think we talked about here on the podcast and was on when in our sermon series on Ephesians, it's this like. When you're both trying to serve the spot happens.

But

the moment you start saying, well, what if they don't?

Yeah. you're not in covenant. And then the biblical, the biblical foundation, the biblical picture of marriage starts to break apart.