Sex & biblical Marriage

[00:00:00] Cameron: In all things, sex included, we always carry with us the meta narrative of hope.

Of redemption, of reconciliation, of God's mercy, of God's grace, of forgiveness. Um, that there, there is no such thing as irreparably broken in the kingdom.

[00:00:24] Luke: Welcome to the uncut podcast I'm pastor

[00:00:28] Cameron: I'm Pastor Cameron. And this is the uncut podcast where we have honest uncut conversations about faith life and ministry

When we talk about covenant and we talk about the nature, the nature of covenant or how covenant shows up in scripture. We see signs. Here is a sign that points to the covenant. We talked about this the last episode, right?

The rainbow was the sign of God's covenant to never destroy the earth by flood again. Circumcision was a sign of the covenant with the descendants of Abram, Abraham.

[00:01:08] Luke: Right.

[00:01:10] Cameron: Marriage as a covenant also has a sign

[00:01:15] Luke: Yes.

[00:01:15] Cameron: that is a distinguishing feature of the covenant, and that is meant to remind the man and the woman, the husband and the wife of their vows of God's faithfulness of the promise, right?

The sign of the covenant in marriage is sex.

[00:01:39] Luke: It's not the rings, Cameron?

[00:01:40] Cameron: not the rings no,

[00:01:41] Luke: okay.

[00:01:43] Cameron: yeah And and Let me tell you what I People think I'm joking People really do think I'm joking But when I tell and I tell them that the no really the number one both indicator of marriage marital health as well as probably the thing that, uh, you can trace almost every marital problem back to at some point is the nature of a husband and wife, sexual relationship.

[00:02:18] Luke: Yeah

[00:02:20] Cameron: Some people are like, um, and, and, and just sex in general. Um, so, Uh, I try to spend quite a bit of time on, um, talking about sex in premarital situations because of how important it is, but also because of how much, um, trauma, baggage, confusion, distortion, there is about sex. And Um, in general, in our culture, like, holy crap, you don't need to go very far to recognize how just stored.

If we have, if we have, uh, if we have the belief that sex is the sign of the marriage covenant between a man and a woman, then it does not take a huge leap to see how distorted that has become. our culture,

[00:03:33] Luke: absolutely.

[00:03:34] Cameron: so, um, wanted to think it's important that we, you know, we talk about sex in this way. Um, and by no means are we going to be able to cover everything that there is to cover about it.

But, um, it's at least a conversation we need to begin to wade.

[00:04:00] Luke: Yeah. Well, like I was thinking about like our, our discussion of this a little bit, and there's a reason why our current culture worships at the altar of sex.

Like it makes sense because sex is where so many things. Like come together. It's one, it's a, it's a gift. It's a good thing. We're going to talk about all of that, but like it has so many emotional, spiritual and physical components, all kind of meeting in one place. And if the culture is going to pick something to worship at and misunderstand, like it just makes sense that sex is going to be the place where things are going to just going to come out.

And it's going to be like evident, right? And like you're saying, sex can be a thermometer. It can be an indicator of what's going on in the marriage. Sometimes it can even be the thermostat, right? It can play both of those roles.

[00:05:13] Cameron: It usually is. It usually, you know, rather than saying what comes first, the chicken or the egg, it's usually just the thermostat or the thermometer come first.

It's a little bit of both. but um, you know, like, I think it is also, it's important to start from the place Again, starting at the foundation, starting at the place of whose idea was sex. Um, cause if we think that sex is our idea, and we think that we have ownership over it,

[00:05:51] Luke: Mhm.

[00:05:52] Cameron: then it, then, We

[00:05:55] Luke: We get to decide what it is.

[00:05:56] Cameron: Yeah, we get to, we, it's, we have more license. Or we think we have more license. But, um, you know, the same passage where we quoted in the last episode, Matthew 19, of, you know, Jesus and his, um, words about like the nature of, you know, um, uh, uh, man will leave his family. A woman will leave her family. Um, and the two will come together.

together, they will be united and create one flesh. Um, the, the picture that you get there is not like, like, like literally they are, it is the picture of sex is the picture of the sign of the covenant of marriage is sex. It's actually the, it's not just the sign of it. It's the consummation of it. It is the beginning.

It is what marks the beginning of the covenant

[00:06:58] Luke: Yeah

[00:06:59] Cameron: and

[00:07:01] Luke: Because what like what's the old fashioned way of saying like sex on marriage night?

[00:07:09] Cameron: of the marriage

[00:07:10] Luke: of the marriage to make it complete

[00:07:12] Cameron: well in

I want to hold that thought for a second because I want to come back to it because there's something really important there where that idea of consummation and baggage intersects. Okay. Okay. But going back to like, where did sex come from and whose idea was sex, if we hold an ethic as Christians, as we should, that God has created us, God has designed and created our bodies.

[00:07:42] Luke: Yeah.

[00:07:44] Cameron: didn't happen by random. I am who I am physically because of God's design. Um, you know, fifth, sixth, seventh grade health lesson will teach you very clearly how God has designed the male body and the female body to come together.

[00:08:08] Luke: together.

[00:08:10] Cameron: Right. That there is physiological. There's a, there's a physiological design for sex that brings together a man and a woman.

[00:08:20] Luke: Right.

[00:08:21] Cameron: Um, and so it's not by chance, it's not by accident. Um, it didn't, we didn't evolve this way. We were designed this way. And all of the reproductive and physical components that come along with sex were designed for a man and a woman to come together. Um, so it's not an accident. It's not an accident at all.

Um, but, um, I don't want to write myself a little note here to come back to that consummation question. Cause, um, but I want, cause I want to talk a second about just like the ways in which sex, is

[00:09:09] Luke: purposed

[00:09:10] Cameron: and used

[00:09:11] Luke: yep

[00:09:12] Cameron: in, I'll call it biblical, like I'll call it a biblical purpose for

[00:09:17] Luke: okay

[00:09:19] Cameron: So the, the, I don't know if it's the most obvious or not, but I just alluded to it.

The most obvious purpose for sex between husband and wife is for reproduction, the creating of new life. Um, and all of the physiological functions of a man's body and a woman's body when they come together creates in the best of situations or circumstances creates life. Um, that is, it's, it's a biological process.

Um, that ha it's, it's a biological process that we did not produce or manufacture ourselves. I can't create life. Um, but the sexual relationship between husband and wife has the potential and designed to do that. But also in scripture, the, even the language of the uniting of. husband and wife where the two become one flesh is not Just a depiction of what happens in their in the physiological sense but a picture of what happens in the Um, like emotional sense that there's a deep spiritual connection deep emotional connection that is created when um When a man and a woman are having sex.

[00:10:54] Luke: Well, the biblical idiom is to know.

[00:11:00] Cameron: Correct. They were fully known.

[00:11:02] Luke: were fully known. Right. Or he came, came to his wife and he knew her.

Yes. Right. Is like the way it's often talked about in the biblical story.

[00:11:11] Cameron: Correct. He saw her. into who she was. Not, not, you know, not a, not a surface type of knowing. Um, and so there is a, a biblical purpose for sex is a deep level of intimacy that cannot be experienced in any other place.

Right. A third understanding hmm.

[00:11:34] Luke: Mm hmm.

[00:11:35] Cameron: That there's not, like, here, like, I, when, when there's really kind of maybe a legalistic view of sex or a very sterile view of sex or a very like non fun view of sex. Um,

[00:11:56] Luke: well, it's cause like, well, the biblical, like right in Genesis, they're like, Oh, fill and populate the earth.

[00:12:02] Cameron: it. That's the what

[00:12:06] Luke: they fail to do is fail to read song of songs. So,

[00:12:09] Cameron: yeah, or just have a honest view of creation and the purpose of creation. So the, like the, the question to be asked to those who think that sex is only for the purposes of reproduction is to ask them if God wanted to,

[00:12:31] Luke: mm hmm

[00:12:33] Cameron: um, could he have made sex not feel physically good?

[00:12:41] Luke: right he could have

[00:12:42] Cameron: right. Like Yeah.

We have a ton of biological processes That are benign. Yeah. In terms of their pleasure

[00:12:52] Luke: we

[00:12:53] Cameron: or displeasure

[00:12:54] Luke: we're, and we're still biologically made to do them,

[00:12:57] Cameron: to do them. Right. And they're some, sometimes they're voluntary and sometimes they're involuntary. But there's a tons ton of things that our bi, that our bodies do.

Mm-Hmm. and can do that, have no. Pleasure like physically pleasurable purpose whatsoever.

[00:13:13] Luke: Right.

[00:13:14] Cameron: Um, and God created those processes as well. So God certainly could have taken pleasure out of sex. So just simply maintained the purpose of reproduction.

[00:13:28] Luke: Right.

[00:13:29] Cameron: And it would have been, we'd have been done the wiser, but God has very clearly Made it something that is physically pleasurable for both sexes.

[00:13:43] Luke: Mm hmm.

[00:13:44] Cameron: And he didn't have to do that. So sex is to be also for our enjoyment. It should be, it can be, It usually is. Well, not usually is

[00:13:58] Luke: always fun. Almost

[00:14:03] Cameron: always fun for most people. Right. Um, yeah, I guess like th there's a joke that, um, some couples will tell me they're, well, maybe a little bit nervous about that wedding night.

And they're saying like, I just don't want to be bad at it. Right.

[00:14:19] Luke: Wow.

[00:14:21] Cameron: And I like the only real answer that I have for them is like, listen. . Even bad sex is still good Under

[00:14:31] Luke: all

[00:14:33] Cameron: other nuance discarding, all discarding, all other

[00:14:36] Luke: Right. Right. Meaning, meaning what you say is like maybe clumsy sex,

[00:14:40] Cameron: right?

Yeah, yeah. It's

[00:14:43] Luke: Non polished, not professional, not the sex you see in the movies.

[00:14:49] Cameron: Correct. So, um, but, um, I don't know, can you, you feel like that is a, you have anything to add to that? intimacy, pleasure, that even, even stating it like that feels a little bit more sterile than the life giving essence that sex is to a marriage.

[00:15:10] Luke: I think like the only thing I would do is I would just kind of like highlight the intimacy one even more.

Like, that's the thing is like when, Like if I had to kind of pick one of those three that I think is like key I would probably pick the intimacy one because if like that's where I think it really it really kind of forms like it's like nexus like it's Intimacy because you can have reproductive sex.

You can have sex for pleasure, but if you don't have intimacy, like you're really missing out,

[00:15:57] Cameron: like,

[00:15:58] Luke: that's, that's the component that like, I think. Really has to be there. Like even if it's clumsy and the pleasure is maybe not quite there. Um, maybe, you know, reproduction is not working the way it should, or you're not trying to have kids at this point, whole bunch of stories there, but sex without.

Intimacy is where it really, for me, like. Breaks down and if you want to know in like weary Sex becomes difficult for many couples is when intimacy outside of the bedroom is already Struggling it's it's a you know, it's a both and we've talked about it. It flows both ways But like intimacy is like this kind of I would say is maybe the key component

[00:16:50] Cameron: that

[00:16:50] Luke: really makes The rest of it kind of function

[00:16:54] Cameron: I agree. I agree. Which is why it's kind of leads into my next point here, going back to the moment of like the idea of sex consummating covenant. Um, if we understand, if we believe this and we take a biblical view of this, which is at least what I think is a biblical view of it, then like one of the questions that I think we need to reckon with is like, when in view in God's eyes, when does a marriage begin?

[00:17:32] Luke: right?

[00:17:35] Cameron: What would you say?

[00:17:36] Luke: I've always thought,

[00:17:41] Cameron: not in the eyes of the

[00:17:43] Luke: of the law. God's

[00:17:46] Cameron: What is the thing that marks the beginning?

[00:17:53] Luke: It's, it's the marriage night.

[00:17:55] Cameron: It's consummation.

[00:17:56] Luke: consummation like, 'cause when I think about, like, we think about our, what comes to our minds, right? Is our modern day of marriage. And for us it's the, oh, it's, you may now kiss your bride. May I present to you?

Like that's when we kind of say, oh, the marriage has started. But that's all Western, like traditions around marriage have changed. I'm not. A hundred percent sure on all of the different things that go around marriage, but like they used to see the couple off not to Like with sparklers and stuff like that into a car with just married and they go down the road They used to see the couple off to the tent

[00:18:34] Cameron: the chamber

[00:18:35] Luke: to the chamber and they say yeah And send them away and they close the door and then that was when everybody else went out and partied Yeah that and then they consummated the marriage.

I remember that I remember enough of You

So

[00:18:55] Cameron: yeah. So it to me is indicative of the extraordinary confusion and around both sex and marriage. Um, because of the way, because like, I think there's a portion of this that we need to, it's not a comfortable conversation, but we need to earnestly reckon with um, the ways in which we have entered into covenant with people who we are no longer in relationship with. When we have Engaged in sexual activity that stands outside of or exists outside of the covenant with the person that we are actually married to. It creates like divisions, I think, in our, internally. in our emotions, in our, like there is a bond of intimacy that is created as designed by God when a man and a woman come together.

And so you get into this situation now where you Have had multiple partners and I, I really feel like it Cree at the, the, the term is really kind of overused, but I think it's true. You create soul ties because sex can never be casual.

[00:20:38] Luke: Right.

[00:20:39] Cameron: There's no such thing

[00:20:40] Luke: Well,

[00:20:41] Cameron: casual sex.

[00:20:42] Luke: that's, that's the cliche, right? Like every movie sitcom, you know, couple get together and they're like, oh, let's just have casual, no strings attached.

What happens? Strings get attached. Like that storyline just never plays out that way. And, you know, we were talking about, you know, in the last episode we were talking about covenant and how covenant makes relationships safe, right? Like for you to show up without covenant, sex is not very safe,

[00:21:13] Cameron: No. just Not emotionally. Not physically. Not spiritually. Not No, not socially. No.

[00:21:23] Luke: Like, cause like just the, like, You know, if right, even if you're practicing like what we call now safe sex, physically safe sex, where you're using protection and things like that to maybe avoid a pregnancy outside of marriage or something like that. If you get pregnant to some dude, maybe your boyfriend, maybe not a boyfriend, maybe something less than that.

Maybe it's, it's complicated or whatever. Right. And you're the woman, like you're in a very.

[00:21:54] Cameron: But even, even if not, what are you safe from? When you talk about safe sex, what are you safe from?

[00:22:06] Luke: might

[00:22:07] Cameron: You might be safe physically from pregnancy.

You might be safe physically from like a transmissible disease or something like that. You're not safe from the deeper intimate ties that the sign of covenant marriage produces in you and between you when you engage in it. And so then there's, you have a tie of intimacy, but then it gets like the relationship gets shattered, but there's no indication that Like,

[00:22:41] Luke: well, it doesn't, the

[00:22:43] Cameron: like that, that self, that giving of self still exists.

[00:22:48] Luke: Well it doesn't practice like from even a, uh, like, uh, from a practical and pragmatic standpoint, um, is that. You're not, I don't want to oversimplify this and I wish I had done, uh,

[00:23:06] Cameron: some pre

[00:23:07] Luke: looked for studies on this before we got onto this topic, but like when you are. Practicing If you're living a life where you are constantly changing sexual partners, or even just consistently You don't have to be constantly but looks like consistently changing sexual partners And then you pick someone you get married and now you're monogamous from now until death well, the rest of your life has not been setting you up for that practice

[00:23:35] Cameron: correct

[00:23:36] Luke: and Statistically that bears itself out in the way that marriages tend to ought like just you People's, you know, we've done so much, um, reporting on people's like studies on people's sex lives and things like that.

And so it's just, it's bearing itself out.

[00:23:54] Cameron: Right. And I think I have a theory. I don't know. I think that it is a piece of the confusion, distortion around sex. Now in our culture is that it's been, it's been too casual and like, I don't know, there's even some Christians today, the thing that's too fuddy duddy antiquated view of sex.

I think it's the highest view of sex that you can have personally. But, um, you know, if. if we believe that covenant, that marriage is God's idea, if we believe that sex was created by him these different reasons, then we, um, have to also, or we, we should also have like, it's the most high view in mind. Um. And a most beautiful view of it in mind, I think, you know, like sex, I think can be described in, um, like in a similar way to a river. Um, it keeps, you know, a river has a natural pattern that it flows through and in its natural state in a natural environment is beautiful. It brings life. Um, and, um, once in a while, the river for a number of circumstances overflows the banks that were naturally designed to contain it.

[00:25:41] Luke: Yeah

[00:25:42] Cameron: And whenever a river overflows its banks, it ceases to become beautiful and only is destructive. Um, and I, um, I think that that is what happens with sex a lot.

[00:25:58] Luke: Mm

[00:25:58] Cameron: did you have something else you wanted to say

[00:26:00] Luke: Yeah, I wanted to say something, cause So, um, there's been a lot of, like, we've talked about deconstruction in the past, but there's been a lot of deconstruction from people who grew up in the evangelical church and, um, a lot of even deconstruction around like marriage and sex and dating and a lot of Christian teachings around some of that.

And I, I want to, I want to pause for a second. I want to acknowledge, like, that we're. We're, we're, specifically, when we're talking about like this, like the dangers of sex outside of marriage, and how that is unhelpful, how that is dangerous, how that's not good for our souls, and things like that. I, I, I, I, uh, Also want to pause and keep us or keep myself at least from kind of repeating maybe the, like the, the analogy that I, um, I've heard.

I never personally heard this, but I've heard people talk about like this analogy is the, uh, Like the bandaid or the sticker analogy of like, Oh, well, let me put this bandaid on you. And then take the bandaid off and put it on another person, take the bandaid off. And then, so all of a sudden the bandaid stops working after the third or fourth person or something like that.

And that's like, you're, you're ruined some. So this kind of like, um, so it was kind of this lesson, right. Trying to illustrate the point of what we're kind of talking about, like of, you doing the most intimate act. With ran with, not random, but just many multiples of people and how that impacts our soul.

And some people walking away from those conversations saying, well, that is my story, or that is my past. I am irreparably ruined or worn out or messed up, or something like that. And

[00:28:09] Cameron: I would say, yeah, I would say the same thing that we said in the last episode about when covenant is broken. Um, that. In all things, we, sex included, we always carry with us the meta narrative of hope.

[00:28:30] Luke: right

[00:28:31] Cameron: of redemption, of reconciliation, of God's mercy, of God's grace, of forgiveness. Um, that there, there is no such thing as irreparably broken in the kingdom. There is no such thing like God, like the, the, the very life and ministry of Jesus is the sign of Redemption, right? It is like that, that we are not abandoned to our sinful state, but that God has come and rescued us from it and can redeem us from the piteous of pits that we've ever been into, including our sexual past.

[00:29:20] Luke: because Christ gives so much grace and almost even special attention in the Gospels to people who were serial adulterers

[00:29:31] Cameron: Mm

[00:29:32] Luke: multiple times. handful off the top of my head. And so it's, yeah, it's, but I do think also in the just cultural moment in which we live in, We do have to hold up the biblical standard of biblical sex ethic. Because

[00:29:51] Cameron: must and it's not to say that the only way in which someone can The only the only way in which someone sins sexually is when they sin sexually outside the bounds of marriage

[00:30:02] Luke: Yes, you can sin with

[00:30:03] Cameron: Yeah, yeah married people sin sexually all the time, you know, and so is there a Sin that happens outside the bounds of marriage like in in As it pertains to sex, yes.

Inside the bounds of marriage, as it pertains to sex, also yes. Um, so, the standard for sexual purity in Christendom has often been what you do before you're married. And less about what you do while you're married. Um, but both are equally important or valid or whatever. Both need to be highly considered.

[00:30:41] Luke: Absolutely,

[00:30:43] Cameron: Um, so I guess then the question, or the question I was going to ask, the question I have written down here for us to try and consider, because it is one that I think is an interesting question.

[00:30:52] Luke: Mm hmm.

[00:30:55] Cameron: do, why do Christians believe that sex outside of marriage is wrong,

[00:30:58] Luke: Mm

[00:30:59] Cameron: and do they really?

[00:31:04] Luke: Like in practice, do they really, or do we

[00:31:08] Cameron: Like I don't like, I guess I'll just like kind of let the cat out of the bag.

Some people will say, well, yeah, like Christians believe the sex out of marriage is wrong and I, a little bit tongue in cheek will say, okay, where does the scripture say that

[00:31:28] Luke: Right.

[00:31:32] Cameron: and

[00:31:33] Luke: but it doesn't, there's not a verse that says there's no sex outside of marriage.

[00:31:38] Cameron: Right. I mean, some people will point to like, oh, you know, keep the marriage bed pure. Okay. That seems to indicate that the marriage has already, yeah. While, you know, they're already married. Right. Keep your marriage, your bed pure. Yep.

Got it. Gonna do that. Um, but, um, the arguments for sex before marriage is, uh, I think a little bit more complicated than we make it or we've tried to make it. Um, and, uh, and so it's always a question I like to pose because I just think it brings up interesting conversation. So, um, maybe in a way we've kind of already described why.

[00:32:32] Luke: Well, I think we've laid the foundation for it, right?

[00:32:35] Cameron: For why sex outside of marriage is notwise. Is it sinful?

[00:32:43] Luke: Well, it depends on what was, so like there's the, so, all right, I'm going to take the Here's the, you know, so there's the biblical word for sexual immorality used in the, in the new Testament.

Probably the word used most often is porneia, which is not referring to any one specific sexual act. It's a broad catch all term. Um, the new Testament has an understanding of like sex outside of marriage as being generally like when it's mentioned, right. Now I guess you could probably assume that it's maybe you make the argument.

Okay. Oh, well the prostitutes they're having sex primarily with married people So there's not this like mass singleness. I don't know you can make an argument like that. I suppose But then ultimately the question comes down to is Well, what is sex? And we just went through in the last two episodes, you know, beginning, we talked about covenant in this episode, we've talked about sex and, um, like, so having sex outside of marriage is engaging in sex, not the way it was designed or for what it was designed.

If it was designed as the marker of the covenant and you're having sex with someone with who you are not in covenant. Like that's the, that's, that's the argument.

[00:34:19] Cameron: I think it is the argument. I think it goes even, I think even part of the point that I was trying to make earlier is that, um, I, I, I think that in some ways, um, we are in covenant with those people that we have sex with. Um, so we can say, well, we're having sex with people that we're not in covenant with.

And I think that, If you were to ask me to refine that statement, and maybe not every person would agree with me, I would say, we create many covenants with many different people to whom we are not in relationship with any longer. So like, well, you're, you know, having sex with someone you're not in covenant with.

Actually, you have sex with someone, and since sex is a sign of the covenant, you create covenant with them, but then you move on in life. And no longer maintain the other, like the other boundaries of covenant, which is like relationship and service and humility and giving of yourself and

[00:35:28] Luke: All that. So, so the argument, the way you're, you're describing it and making the argumentation for sex is, sex is not the add-on, it's not the bonus feature of marriage. It's, it is the thing itself. It's why we came and we talked about consummating the marriage.

Because

[00:35:48] Cameron: you're

[00:35:49] Luke: consummating a marriage and then you're walking away. And so it's, so it's kind of shifting the way that we just kind of naturally think about marriage. in a secular worldview, we think of it as like, oh, it's the benefit. That's how we talk about it, friends with benefits, it's the benefit of being married, um, not the like central point, beginning point, end point of marriage in itself.

[00:36:18] Cameron: I, I think that when we approach it that way, the argument for not having sex before marriage is that when we do then become married, we are so fractured in relationship because we have entered into covenant with so many people.

that we have a very distorted view of ourself in order to be able to pursue intimacy with that person to whom we are committed now. Um, and you can only, I think you can only have or pursue that view or that opinion if you like. If you have a High view of Covenant as it pertains to marriage Like because otherwise if you don't if you if there's not a view of covenant marriage and like the and that and that marriage is God's idea and that covenant is established by him that it all comes from him Then the idea that we actually create covenants with people by having sex with them is stupid

[00:37:35] Luke: Right.

[00:37:36] Cameron: And you're like, well, who cares?

It's fine if I like create a covenant. It's just my body. And what I'm saying is that like no covenant goes deeper than that. And, and so when we try, so when we have sex, create covenant, and then walk away from that relationship, there is still something that's from a spiritual perspective anchors us. In that place.

Now that is again, not outside of the arena of God's redemptive purposes. You know, I'm not saying that you'll never be able to be fully intimate with your spouse now, because you've had sexual partners outside of marriage. I believe that you can. Grace, you know, but what I'm saying is that I think I come back to like the original questions.

Why do Christians believe that sex before marriage is wrong? I think we've been arguing for it. Sex. I think we've been arguing for sex only within the content context of marriage for so long for the wrong reasons.

[00:38:48] Luke: as you say that I think there's a deeper level. I think you not only have to be committed to seeing The marriage as a covenant I think you have to be committed to seeing the world through god's eyes or through a

[00:39:03] Cameron: biblical worldview.

[00:39:04] Luke: And what I mean by that is not viewing the Bible as basic instructions before leaving earth, not as a rule book. The Bible is not a rule book. Because if you approach the Bible as like, what are the things I can and cannot do?

[00:39:18] Cameron: Right.

[00:39:20] Luke: Is there a Bible verse that says that you can't have sex before marriage? Nope. Well then have at it. But if you're committed to understanding us, God, the world and the world in which we live in and all of it through, uh, the lens and the eyes of God and the way he has created us, then you're going to see covenant and you're going to see sex as meaning something more than just something you do just with your body.

[00:39:51] Cameron: Mm hmm. hmm. I agree.