Healthy Marriages: Patterns that of Disconnection

Cameron: 00:00

If you are fine with having a miserable marriage and probably letting bitterness erode the foundation to the point of separation and divorce Mhmm. Then just go ahead and don't work on the decisions to forgive. Welcome to The Uncut Podcast.

Luke: 00:21

I'm pastor Luke. I'm pastor Gary. And this is The Uncut Podcast where we have honest, uncut conversations about faith, life, and history. Oh, Cameron, we're, we've been going the last couple of weeks on the podcast. We've been talking about marriage, and we talked way more about sex than I thought we were going to.

Luke: 00:46

But I

Cameron: 00:47

I got a comment about it, like, in my personal life.

Luke: 00:49

Yeah?

Cameron: 00:50

Yeah. Like, not on any of the pod things or whatever. Mhmm. Someone sent me a message and and said they were like, love the podcast, topics. Had to unsubscribe from the YouTube version so my kids didn't see the title on the smart TV.

Cameron: 01:12

But I'm listening to it, the audio version. It's great. Okay. I'm like, well, yeah. Sorry about that.

Cameron: 01:19

But, also, I mean, what are you gonna do? Yeah. Like, it

Luke: 01:22

No. I mean, we kept

Cameron: 01:22

That's the topic. We kept

Luke: 01:23

it pretty PG 13.

Cameron: 01:25

Oh, yeah.

Luke: 01:27

But, yeah, I was definitely I was going back and listening to those as I was editing the editing them, and I was like, wow. We really talked a lot about sex.

Cameron: 01:35

We did. Like, 2 whole episodes, basically.

Luke: 01:38

Yeah. Pretty much. So but that was one of the feedbacks, things that we kinda got from the marriage conferences that people really wanna talk about sex and kinda sort it out. It's one of those things that all the surveys that I always say that people think a lot about sex, they just don't talk about it that much.

Cameron: 01:59

Yeah. I, I sometimes I feel alone in that feeling because I when I do premarital counseling, I will talk to the couple beforehand about the various topics that we're that I wanna talk about or that I think are important to talk about. And we talk about the regular ones, communication and Yeah. You know, your story, family of origin, and spiritual beliefs and stuff like that. And then I do a pretty large portion on sex.

Cameron: 02:30

Mhmm. The sexual relationship, but all of that. And quite a few times, I've gotten, like like, oh, like, re like, we're gonna go there? Like, we're gonna like, really? We're gonna go there?

Cameron: 02:46

Right. I'm like, yeah. Well, yeah, I I I don't I I couldn't imagine how we wouldn't or how we couldn't

Luke: 02:53

Yeah.

Cameron: 02:54

Go talk about marriage, prepare you to be married, and talk about one of the most significant aspects of being married. So, anyway but it is I I was I I think I was a little surprised at the feedback from the marriage conference about wanting more talk on sex. Yeah. So much so that I didn't really have a vision or a plan for that being a part of, like, marriage ministry moving forward.

Luke: 03:30

Right.

Cameron: 03:32

But kinda think that it needs to be.

Luke: 03:34

Yeah. Well, because, like, the world's talking about it.

Cameron: 03:40

Right? Right? We're this, like, the most sexually charged culture Yeah. In well, maybe not.

Luke: 03:48

Not maybe not ever.

Cameron: 03:49

Maybe not ever, but But, like It's a different type of sexually charged culture.

Luke: 03:53

Right. Sex is everywhere. Schools talk about it. YouTube videos talk about it. Your songs, your magazines, everything is talking and saying something about sex.

Luke: 04:03

Right. You know, I'll like, like, we weren't planning to really go down this rabbit hole, but, like, I think it's worth saying, like, I grew up in a home, you know, kind of conservative Christian values and culture. And my family wasn't like, you know, wasn't like the, we only watch Veggie Tales in this house kind of family because we were kind of coming to faith as I grew up. But we had kind of seized Christian values, and we didn't talk a ton about sex in our house. Actually, we didn't talk about sex at all.

Luke: 04:32

Mhmm. We just changed the channel anytime an ad came up Mhmm. That was, like, provocative Yeah. Or if everybody loves Raymond episode was talking too much about sex. Yeah.

Luke: 04:45

But as a kid growing up, that communicated certain things to me about what sex was. Sex was whoop. Taboo. Taboo. Mhmm.

Luke: 04:53

Don't talk about sex. Sex is the thing that nobody really talks about, but everybody laughs about. Mhmm. It's the thing that every guy wants and every woman is ashamed about. Like Yeah.

Luke: 05:05

Or, like, tolerates. Tolerates. Right? Mhmm. And that was the message that I got Mhmm.

Luke: 05:14

From a family that didn't talk about sex or didn't live in a like, try to avoid the sexualization of everything, tried to kind of, you know, as best as they could kind of manage the sex that was just kinda coming into the household through our media and the way we talked about it. And those are still the messages that I came away with, and I've had to work to build a more biblical understanding of sex out of that. So, like, we are forming our thoughts, our identities, our patterns around sex, whether we're talking about it explicitly or not is, I guess, the point that I was trying to make there.

Cameron: 05:51

We're always being formed. It's what is forming us.

Luke: 05:56

Right.

Cameron: 05:58

That's really the question. It is the is the world forming our and what I should say is, is the world deforming our mind about sex? Yeah. Or are we being formed by conformed, to God's word, God's design, God's desire Yeah. For sex.

Cameron: 06:20

So it's always out there. We wanna have conversations about it. But, yeah, maybe be thinking into 2025 about, how we integrate the conversation of sex and marriage and all of that into ministry. I don't

Luke: 06:41

I don't know. I don't know. It's not something that we've got all figured out and integrated, but seems to be at least a felt need point. So Yep. Yeah.

Luke: 06:53

Yeah. But so we wanna continue that conversation because there's more to even though we spent 2 episodes kind of really talking about sex, there's more to talk about with marriage. Mhmm. You know, there's other ways of connecting and building the relationship that aren't just sexual in nature. There are other things.

Luke: 07:12

And so we wanted to take, this episode, talk about kind of patterns to avoid

Cameron: 07:18

Mhmm.

Luke: 07:19

Is what we're kinda kinda talk about. So, Cam, do you have, like, a

Cameron: 07:22

Within marriage itself.

Luke: 07:24

Do you have an idea of where you kinda wanna move in that conversation?

Cameron: 07:27

Yeah. You know, there's a few things as we were talking about what we could what we could talk about on the podcast as coming out of the conference. One of the there's the things that you wanna pursue, and there's the things that you want to avoid. And I think that I have found, that there are some fairly typical patterns

Luke: 07:55

Mhmm.

Cameron: 07:56

That are can be just landmines

Luke: 08:03

Yeah.

Cameron: 08:05

In most relationships, but, like, definitely in marriage relationships. Mhmm. So I get if we just jump right into it, I would say, like, one of the first these are in no particular order, but one of the first would be a pattern of selfishness. Mhmm. And this is not like this is a not a this is a well established Christian principle or virtue.

Cameron: 08:39

Is would be, like, against selfishness.

Luke: 08:42

Right.

Cameron: 08:42

Paul, you know, for instance, in first Corinthians 13, love is not self seeking.

Luke: 08:47

Yeah. Yep. Right. Or or a lot of people talk about in the bible all the one another's. Right.

Luke: 08:54

If you look up all the passages that say look up the word one another in the bible, you'll find all these passages in the new testament about love one another, care for one another,

Cameron: 09:03

so forth and so

Luke: 09:04

on.

Cameron: 09:04

Or like we talked about in, we talked about in worship in one of the sermons lately, the parable of the good Samaritan. Yep. Loving your neighbor as yourself.

Luke: 09:14

Mhmm.

Cameron: 09:14

That being connected with a love of God. And so the idea of not being selfish is not a not a foreign idea to Christian thought. For whatever reason, what I find is that the virtues that we seek to develop in our Christian life, things like, you know, against selfishness. Mhmm. We sometimes forget that those things still exist or need to exist within the context of our marriages.

Cameron: 09:55

Mhmm. So, like, I know that as a follower of Jesus and as a person who loves, for instance, you and the rest of my staff Mhmm. That if I that I like, I shouldn't be seeking selfish gain as a pastor or a supervisor or a boss or whatever. Right? Yeah.

Cameron: 10:16

But do I hold selfish patterns within my marriage? Yeah. And, like, a selfish pattern in a marriage would be, for instance, not concerning myself with or or not cons being considerate of what Mhmm. My wife's concerns

Luke: 10:38

Right.

Cameron: 10:38

Are. What she wants to do, where she wants to go, how she wants to live, the choices she wants to make, the visions, goals, dreams, passions, whatever that she has. It'd be really easy for me to be just completely self centered. Yeah. And I think at the marriage conference, I talked about this a little bit.

Cameron: 11:09

And I I I wanna say I spoke, but I think I felt like I was just preaching, on Philippians chapter 2,

Luke: 11:19

which,

Cameron: 11:19

of course, the model for anti selfishness is Jesus. Yep. Who, being in very nature of God, did not equality with God something to be grasped, but he humbled himself from being obedient to death, even down on a cross, you know, take the same attitude as that of Christ Jesus. Your attitude should be that as the same as Christ Jesus. Do nothing under selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility, consider others better than yourselves.

Cameron: 11:58

Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also into the also to the interests of others. And so, like, for whatever reason, that is a we we think about that in terms of our relationship with others.

Luke: 12:15

Yeah.

Cameron: 12:16

But it a lot of the times, it escapes like, oh, no. This is actually I should be something I should be pursuing in the most important human relationship that I have. Yeah. Which is not considering, you know, like, thinking of my wife as better than me. Mhmm.

Cameron: 12:35

Not gonna do anything out of a selfish ambition. What is just best for Cameron?

Luke: 12:40

Mhmm.

Cameron: 12:40

What is best for me, or a vain conceit? Because I'm gonna do what's best for me because I'm the most important person in this relationship. But I I'm instead in relationship with my wife, gonna be take a position of humility and not consider and consider others, my wife, better

Luke: 13:03

Mhmm.

Cameron: 13:03

Than myself. I take that position of humility. It allows me to see her, in, in a non selfish way. So that I am now looking not only to my own interests, which is interesting because the like, Paul's not insinuating that we need to completely just, like, self flagellate and mortify No. To the sense that we lose all individuality or maybe that's the wrong word.

Cameron: 13:31

We lose all sense of, like, what's important to us, so it's sense of self. But we're just not looking to what is only best

Luke: 13:39

for us. Right.

Cameron: 13:41

We're also looking to what is best for the other.

Luke: 13:44

Yeah. Well and that's the paradox of really all Christian relationships, but particularly the marriage relationship is when the other person does the same, it works out. Yep. You know, it's just but it's that risk of, you know, when you get into a stalemate of something and, like, who's gonna be the first one to humble themselves or to, like, express love or seek connection. And if we're both like, well, I'm waiting for the other person, you'll both be waiting

Cameron: 14:16

for a long time. Forever. Yeah. Someone has to go first. Yeah.

Cameron: 14:21

And it should be a race to the place of humility.

Luke: 14:28

Mhmm.

Cameron: 14:30

Like trying to it it it's maybe a little oxymoronic, but, like, trying to

Luke: 14:38

Outdo one another.

Cameron: 14:38

Outdo one another Mhmm. In the showing of honor. Yeah. Outdo one another in the, in the showing of service. I've used the phrase here a condo before, like, race to the back of the line.

Cameron: 14:56

As conduits, we should be racing to the back of the line, racing to the bottom of the proverbial ladder. Yeah. Not stepping over people to get to the front. Mhmm. Not trying to put ourselves out in front of others, but going and being with the last, making ourselves the last.

Cameron: 15:17

Because that was the attitude of Jesus is that he had all authority. Yeah. If there was anyone that deserved to be at the front Right. It was him.

Luke: 15:28

Right.

Cameron: 15:28

Right? And we might say that in our marriages. Like, well, I am x in the marriage. I'm the major breadwinner, or I take care of the kids in the home, or I, work really hard, or I am older, or I am like, whatever whatever it is. Whatever reason Whatever reason you do.

Luke: 15:46

For the privilege or the right or whatever.

Cameron: 15:50

Because I'm a male.

Luke: 15:52

Yeah. Right.

Cameron: 15:53

Right? Or because I'm a female. What what whatever it is, that Jesus had every reason. Mhmm. And in the midst of having every reason or every reason, the word says that he humbled himself, that he made the choice.

Cameron: 16:14

Yeah. So it was a willful it was a willful position of humility that he took in order to he made himself nothing. Yep. Taking the very nature of a servant. He humbled himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross.

Cameron: 16:33

Therefore, God exalted him to the highest place. So I think the, a pattern to avoid in marriage is a pattern of thinking too often in too much of ourselves.

Luke: 16:52

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's got a lot to do with, you know, a lot of times our own selfish, like, pride wanting people to think well of us Mhmm. Can keep us in good behavior in our other in our external relationships outside of our marriage. Because, like like, I'm not married to you, Cameron.

Luke: 17:15

I I could quit. I could leave. I could go away. Right? I could do whatever.

Luke: 17:19

Mhmm. But your wife, your wife's married to you.

Cameron: 17:23

Mhmm.

Luke: 17:23

Right? And same with my wife. And, like, it's easy to, one, like, that safety and security is a blessing in the in the marriage relationship. But if we're not careful, we can use that as an excuse to just, like, not try. Mhmm.

Luke: 17:41

Or to give what's our leftovers. You know? A lot of times for our, like, in our married lives, you know, we see each other as we get up and we rush out the door in the morning. And then we expend a lot of energy throughout the day, whether that's with the kids or at our jobs or running from one place to another, doing all the things that need to be done. We get home.

Luke: 18:04

Maybe there's an after school activity, and maybe there's, like, a thing or a thing we gotta go do. And then we collapse, and we're just like, we've got nothing for each other at the end of the day. Mhmm. And we don't go that final mile, for our spouse, and we're just like, Yep. So I think it's easy for us to end up that relationship that we return home to every day is the one that is easy to not prioritize or not expend energy on because it ends up being the last thing in the day.

Luke: 18:37

And it's also the one that they're gonna if they get mad at me, what are they gonna do? You know? And we can kinda use that as an excuse.

Cameron: 18:46

Yeah. Which in a way is a it like, it's great to have a relationship that is so safe Of course. That you don't have to be Perfect. On Yeah. 100% of the time.

Cameron: 19:02

Yeah. Or at least feel like you have to be on 100% of the time. But you're right. It does end up it couldn't it can push us over into laziness

Luke: 19:13

Mhmm.

Cameron: 19:13

In our virtue Yeah. Of being other centered.

Luke: 19:19

Yeah. Well, it's I think it's a way that Christ forms us in that we're called to love when there's those other prideful and other things that keep us in good behavior outside Mhmm. Of the marriage relationship when that's gone. Mhmm. It has to come out of somewhere else.

Luke: 19:36

It has to come out of a different type of love, not just keeping a face. Mhmm. But it has to come out of somewhere deeper. And then there's also there is like that just safety of, like, being able to, like, I'm not perfect today. I'm having a rough day.

Luke: 19:50

Like, the amount of times where I have to just come home and I'm like, tell my wife just like, I am tired and I'm hungry. I need to go. I need to eat food and I need to go to sleep. I have, like, 0 capacity at night. Like, I just have to be honest because, like and my wife will call me out, like, when we're like, when I'm kind of being a bit of a butt, she'll just be like, are you hungry?

Luke: 20:15

I'm just like Mhmm. Dang it. Do you need a snickers?

Cameron: 20:18

Yeah. I need a snickers.

Luke: 20:19

Like, I I just need to I just need to eat. I need to calm down, and I'll stop being such a grump. Because I can be a big grump when I'm hungry. And it's it's there's a lot of safety in knowing that she can see that part of me, and she's not going to, beat me up or judge me or leave me. But, like, I also have to kinda work on that

Cameron: 20:42

too. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Right.

Cameron: 20:48

Okay. Next pattern.

Luke: 20:50

Mhmm.

Cameron: 20:50

Pattern of bitterness, which is connected to to to the third pattern, which is a pattern of unforgiveness.

Luke: 20:58

Yeah. They kinda they go hand in hand. 1 creates the other.

Cameron: 21:03

Yep. Mhmm. Yep. And past bitterness creates future unforgiveness Yeah. As well.

Cameron: 21:10

Like Yeah. We can carry bitterness with us into a into a relationship. And then our a generalized bitterness Mhmm. Does not produce in us the heart of forgiveness. And so then when we get hurt in relationship, we and we refuse to forgive.

Cameron: 21:41

Forgiveness is the pathway to avoid bitterness and heal our wounds. So when we refuse forgiveness, we invite bitterness. Yep. It is the natural it is the natural consequence of unhealed wounds Yeah. Bitterness is.

Cameron: 22:08

Mhmm. And so just like just like our other like, well, just like we just talked about with selfishness and just like our other relationships, the the importance of pursuing forgiveness is most primary in our relationship with our Yep. Spouse. And you have to become an expert in forgiveness if you wanna be married. Yeah.

Cameron: 22:39

Or at least you wanna be married healthily

Luke: 22:43

There we go.

Cameron: 22:44

And for a long time. Yeah. If you are fine with having a miserable marriage and, probably letting bitterness erode the foundation to the point of separation and divorce, then just go ahead and don't work on the decisions to forgive. Yep. Just let just let the hurt sit.

Luke: 23:08

Mhmm.

Cameron: 23:09

But every relationship that is long term, every meaningful long term relationship, needs forgiveness as a central part of its DNA. Yeah. You if you're not an expert in forgiveness, life will be very, very difficult for you. Yeah. And this is can't be more true than it is in marriage.

Cameron: 23:34

Mhmm. Because I've said it before, I say it again, like, marriages hold the greatest capacity for love. Mhmm. But that also means that they hold the greatest capacity for hurt. There, you know, there's no one that is more capable of loving me the way I need to and want to be loved than my wife.

Cameron: 24:03

And there is no one as capable of hurting and injuring me Mhmm. Than my wife. Yep. Because the place of love and hurt resides deeply in a person in the exact same place.

Luke: 24:19

Yeah. Mhmm.

Cameron: 24:20

It's the exact same place. Yeah. It goes it's the same depth. Right? Where we get loved and where we get hurt Yep.

Cameron: 24:27

Are the same place. And so if we let people into the place Mhmm. Where we get loved, where we can get loved, they are in they are in the room where our hurt exists. Yeah. And so part of loving is also, is also being, part of part of allowing ourselves to be loved Mhmm.

Cameron: 24:52

Is also allowing ourselves to be hurt, which means that we will inevitably be hurt, and we have to

Luke: 25:01

Mhmm.

Cameron: 25:02

Become an expert in forgiveness.

Luke: 25:04

Yep. I think it's CS Lewis in his book on the four loves has a portion where he talks about and says, if you never wanna be hurt, you never wanna experience pain. You can do that. Mhmm. You just have to never love.

Luke: 25:19

Mhmm. Yep. And I you know, and this was this was something that I think I saw online somewhere, but I think it's like, it's very true is if you, like, you know, you don't have I don't put I don't put a ton of stock in, like, the love languages and things like that. Mhmm. There's some it's helpful.

Luke: 25:45

Right? Like, it's kind of like a little neat personality test. But they were kind of like, if you name kind of the way in which you didn't receive love very often as a kid, place where you were hurt as a kid, you didn't feel loved or accepted. That is a place you will feel most loved by your spouse and is most likely the love language you desire the most. Mhmm.

Luke: 26:08

I'm like, well yeah.

Cameron: 26:11

Yeah. It's probably true. Yeah. There's Anecdotally.

Luke: 26:16

Anecdotally. To some to some extent, I think that can be true. Mhmm. So Yep. You know, there's definitely an element of we I think at every person longs to be fully known and then fully loved because our deepest fear is to be fully known and then despised.

Cameron: 26:38

Yes. Yes. Right. Yeah. Like, oh my gosh.

Cameron: 26:41

They see me for exactly who I am. Yep. And they hate it. Yeah. Like, oh.

Luke: 26:46

Oh, they found out the thing that I was hoping they didn't find out. Yep. And now I'm waiting for them to judge me, leave me, abandon me, despise me, resent me, whatever. And that that creates a fear of vulnerability and can keep, like, the walls up in a marriage Mhmm. In any, really, any relationship.

Cameron: 27:08

Yeah. Yeah. And so just like selfishness or just like anything, any relationship that we have, we have to learn how to forgive in our marriages.

Luke: 27:20

Mhmm.

Cameron: 27:22

So me forgiving you or you forgiving me, it holds the same principles. It's just we need to pursue them in our marriage, and we forget that we gotta pursue those same virtues or same practices Yeah. In our marriage. So, like, when I'm choosing to forget, you know, like, what we talk about forgiveness here at Conduit as a choice. Mhmm.

Cameron: 27:43

Forgiveness is a choice. Feeling. Not a feeling. It is not an emotion. We don't forgive when we have when we have finally conjured up the feelings of forgiveness.

Luke: 27:54

Mhmm.

Cameron: 27:55

We forgive as a decision to release someone from the debt that they owe me because of what they've done to me. Yeah. And the reason that we can do that is because, God's decision to forgive us was a decision, not a feeling.

Luke: 28:15

Mhmm.

Cameron: 28:18

Separating our sin from us as far as the east is from the west in Jesus Christ.

Luke: 28:23

Mhmm.

Cameron: 28:25

And and Jesus' own reflection on forgiveness, many places in the scripture, parable of the unmerciful servant in Matthew chapter 18, also the Sermon on the Mount, right after the lord's right after the lord's prayer. Right? And if you do not forgive men when they sin against you, your father in heaven will not forgive you your sins.

Luke: 28:50

Mhmm.

Cameron: 28:52

Which every, you know, every single time I don't know if you ever preached on that verse before, but every single time that I use that verse in a sermon, you can see across the congregation, a handful of people, like visibly recoil. Yeah. Like and I even had someone one time, not recently. One time I was preaching on that verse in particular, and they were, like, shaking their head no and then got up and left in the middle of the sermon.

Luke: 29:40

And that'll happen if you preach the Bible sometime.

Cameron: 29:42

I yeah. I mean, it doesn't happen often to me in 20 years of preaching. I think that's, like, only 1 or 2 times that that's happened. But Mhmm. Because what is what do we always say about God's attitude towards forgiveness of us?

Cameron: 29:58

We always say God forgives Yeah. Everything. Right. Like, just gotta like like, there's there's nothing that you will do Mhmm. That God would not forgive you from if you ask for forgiveness.

Cameron: 30:12

Yeah. Like, God always forgives. Does is that true? Well, I mean, we take the words of Jesus seriously.

Luke: 30:26

Right.

Cameron: 30:28

Then we would have to make some qualifications on that statement that God always forgives.

Luke: 30:34

Mhmm.

Cameron: 30:37

Yep. And I think what we ended up saying in the sermon series we did this past summer was that God makes forgiveness universally available, but not universally applied.

Luke: 30:54

Mhmm.

Cameron: 30:55

Forgiveness is not universally applied, meaning everyone is forgiven no matter what, of everything no matter what.

Luke: 31:01

Mhmm.

Cameron: 31:01

That would be universalism.

Luke: 31:03

Mhmm.

Cameron: 31:04

Forgiveness is universally available to all those who call on the name of Jesus.

Luke: 31:09

Mhmm.

Cameron: 31:11

But the words of Jesus are like, if I'm holding on forgiveness towards someone Mhmm. And I'm just like, I am not forgiving that person Yeah. I'm a if I'm showing that bitterness has taken root in my life, they have hurt me. They have hurt me so bad. Yep.

Cameron: 31:32

You know, I've worked with couples before who the wife is bitter or the husband is bitter or whatever for something to happen 20 years ago.

Luke: 31:41

Mhmm.

Cameron: 31:43

Yep. Long, long over with. Yep. But actually not over with because they never forgave. And so it took root the the offense took root in their heart.

Cameron: 31:55

Mhmm. And the fruit of that rootedness was bitterness. Yep. And so it was as the anger, the poison, the toxicity

Luke: 32:07

Mhmm. That resentment.

Cameron: 32:09

That resentment and bitterness was as fresh today as it was 20 years ago when the actual event occurred.

Luke: 32:15

Yeah. Because they've kept rehearsing it, replaying it over and over. And that was so hurtful. Oh, that was so painful. I just that was how awful.

Luke: 32:24

How could they? And they just you revisit it like this awful sick drink that just makes you sick.

Cameron: 32:32

Yeah. And so the question, I guess, that we got there by saying, like, our forgiveness the forgiveness that we receive from God is tied to the same measure in which we forgive others. Yeah. That's the plain words of

Luke: 32:51

Jesus Mhmm.

Cameron: 32:52

In Matthew chapter 5 at the end of Matthew chapter 5. It's also the parabolic words of Jesus in Matthew chapter 18 Yep. Mhmm. With the the whole parable of the unmerciful servant is that. Yep.

Cameron: 33:05

Go ahead. You will you will receive forgiveness and mercy in the same measure that you forgive others. Yep. Which is like

Luke: 33:18

Yeah. Creaky. Yeah. You

Cameron: 33:20

know, that's heavy. Yeah. That's heavy. Absolutely. So avoiding the pattern of unforgiveness by making decisions to forgive, knowing that you're going to be hurt in a marriage relationship.

Luke: 33:38

Yeah. Yeah. And that doesn't mean right? Like, this is the thing that whenever you talk about forgiveness or we talk about forgiveness, there's always this, like, I guess there's this, like, fear of, like, well, does that mean that they just get to do whatever? Like, you know, and that's, you know, that because we talked about selfishness first.

Luke: 34:05

Right? Like, as people who are broken and imperfect and as we receive unforgiveness, we wanna, you know, we wanna steward that well. We wanna be people who actually try and keep our word and make positive change and not just live in the same patterns and and continue to be, someone who, you know, I guess isn't trustworthy with that forgiveness that's being given.

Cameron: 34:33

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Luke: 34:34

You know, not that you earn it because you can't.

Cameron: 34:36

No. Mm-mm. But yeah. 3rd pattern 3rd pattern. To avoid, well, is bitterness.

Cameron: 34:45

We've kinda talked about that.

Luke: 34:46

We've kinda talked about that. Yeah. Because that

Cameron: 34:48

So Yeah.

Luke: 34:48

Because bitterness just

Cameron: 34:50

Bitterness is bitterness is just the fruit of unforgiveness. Yeah. It's all it is.

Luke: 34:54

And the one last thing I'll say about it is what happens, I think, with a lot of couples and in almost any relationship where there's bitterness or resentment is the person who's holding bitterness and resentment will miss and not receive the acts of love, kindness, and reaching out for connection that the other person is sending or giving. So even if there's like this happens all the time when there's bitterness on both ends of the relationship, is one person will be drinking from their bitterness cup. The other person will be wanting to make connection or be loving or kind, and they'll do something nice or kind. And the person with the bitterness that they're drinking right now is just gonna ignore it, push it back, reject it. And then they're like, oh, okay.

Luke: 35:45

Fine. They're still bitter. I'm gonna go drink my bitterness cup. And then the person and then they just swap roles Yeah. Perpetually.

Luke: 35:52

And they never get onto the same page where they're both reaching out to each other at the same time.

Cameron: 35:58

Yeah. So bitterness becomes kind of like this shield. Mhmm. Not even a shield, but, like yeah. I guess a shield that does not allow you to receive love in its most genuine form Yeah.

Cameron: 36:16

From another.

Luke: 36:17

And then it it's like it's this bitterness is really sticky. Like, the moment someone acts in a way you're like, oh, well, that's just another example. Add that to my bitterness. Right? And you just look and you just grab on anything that feels like it matches that narrative that you've got going on.

Luke: 36:34

Mhmm. Mhmm. So but, anyways, that's the bitterness and unforgiveness. What's the 4th pattern?

Cameron: 36:42

Idolatry. Yeah. Pattern of idolatry.

Luke: 36:45

So what? Like, Cameron, does that mean I have a little tiki idol next to my bed? Like, is that what's ruining our marriage?

Cameron: 36:53

Well, if if you do, then It would be. Yeah. You're certainly a part of it.

Luke: 36:59

Just for clarity, I don't. Yeah. But what do you mean when you say idolatry?

Cameron: 37:04

So, what I find is that couples get into a displacement of what is great by by, replacing it with what is good. Mhmm. And, what is good is the most insidious enemy of what is great. Yeah. Because it's so close to the truth that it convinces us to continue to pursue it.

Cameron: 37:43

Mhmm. So as an example, probably one of the most significant examples, because it is a top it's a it's a kind of a hot button topic for most people, obviously, is kids. Mhmm. That when a couple gets married and they start having kid you see it all the time. They start having kids, and are kids good?

Cameron: 38:20

The kids love me. Like, they're a gift they're a gift they're a gift from God. Right? Yeah. Absolutely.

Cameron: 38:26

They're they are yeah. There's they're not just good. They're great.

Luke: 38:31

Mhmm.

Cameron: 38:32

You know? But your relationship with your kids is not the most important relationship that you have.

Luke: 38:44

Mhmm.

Cameron: 38:46

It's not even the most important human relationship that you have. We could say we could go into all different types of scenarios. Like, if you're happen to be divorced and a single parent or widowed or whatever, like, I'm not I'm not talking about any of that. I'm talking as a baseline. A married couple still living together, have kids, and then all of a sudden, like, my kids are my world.

Luke: 39:16

Yep.

Cameron: 39:19

And they live for their kids.

Luke: 39:22

Mhmm.

Cameron: 39:22

And they become, in many ways, roommates Mhmm. And co laborers in the job of raising the kids. Mhmm. Such a good thing.

Luke: 39:42

Yeah. Right.

Cameron: 39:42

Obviously, no one's gonna no one's gonna argue with that, but it's really easy for our relationship with our kids to become more important than our relationship with our spouses. And the best way for me to love my kids is to love my spouse. Yeah. To serve my spouse, forgive my spouse

Luke: 40:07

Mhmm.

Cameron: 40:08

To be selfless to her, to my family, to be forgiving, all of those patterns that we talked about to put off bitterness. And so we it becomes really easy to we and we we see this with the with with empty nesters sometimes.

Luke: 40:28

Mhmm.

Cameron: 40:28

The last kid leaves the house.

Luke: 40:30

And then everything falls apart.

Cameron: 40:32

Yep. They don't know how to be married. Yep. They don't know how to be in relationship with one another. Mhmm.

Cameron: 40:38

They don't know how to live together. They don't know how to connect. They don't know how to be vulnerable. They don't know how to be intimate. They don't know any of that because they just spent the last 18 years of their life idolizing parenting Yep.

Cameron: 40:50

And idolizing their kids. And now they're in a place of, like, I feel like I'm living with a stranger Yep. Because you are. So that's a big one.

Luke: 41:04

It's a big one. It the the thing too is, don't make your kids live underneath that amount of weight. Right. Because even if the kids aren't able to name the fact that you're idle, like, they wouldn't come to you and say, mother, father, I think you've idolized me. Like, they're not gonna be able to articulate that.

Luke: 41:24

But they will feel the pressure that gets put on to on them to succeed Mhmm. To make you happy, for that you're trying to put in there through living vicariously through them. Mhmm. They children were not meant to be turned to egomaniacs by making them think that they are the center of your world.

Cameron: 41:47

Right. Yeah. It's not healthy for them. No. Mhmm.

Cameron: 41:51

People do it. People idolize work.

Luke: 41:53

Yeah.

Cameron: 41:54

You know, you get get into a pattern of idolizing work.

Luke: 41:58

Mhmm.

Cameron: 41:59

A good again, a a good thing. Work is a good work is a good thing. But when it becomes our primary focus, our primary drive, our primary place of vision and passion and, effort Mhmm. And energy, energy Mhmm. Then it's become this is one that I am, like, really guilty of.

Cameron: 42:28

Mhmm. Yeah. And it's, you know, like giving my work 99% of my emotional Yeah. Mental physical capacity for a day. So when I walk through the doors at 4 or 5 or whenever it is, I'm coming home 6, 7, 8, you know, that day, I have 1% of my capacity left.

Cameron: 43:01

Yeah. And when someone's at 1 1 percent of their capacity, it doesn't take a lot to heat up that. Yep. And then you're then you're living in emotional deficit. Yeah.

Cameron: 43:15

Physical deficit. And you do things and you say things and you act in such a way as to be dishonoring and unloving and all of that. And so the question of, like, okay, who is getting who is getting the best parts of me? Yeah. And it kinda goes back to the what you were saying about selfishness in that, it is an easy sell to say, well, work needs the best part of me because that's the people I need to impress the most, lead the most, whatever the case may be.

Cameron: 43:58

And I can I can like, my my wife can deal just deal with the fact that I'm out there providing or

Luke: 44:04

Right?

Cameron: 44:04

Whatever.

Luke: 44:04

Well, that's the thing is we'll use the family as an excuse. Like, I gotta, like, I gotta provide.

Cameron: 44:09

Yeah. I

Luke: 44:10

gotta I gotta you know, this is this is how I pay for our vacations or the kids' school or whatever. You know? However you justify it. Mhmm. But it ends up being like if you if you were to ask your kid, you know, do you do you want more money in our bank account or do you want me more present?

Cameron: 44:30

More time.

Luke: 44:31

Kid's gonna want more time.

Cameron: 44:32

He's gonna want more presence. Mhmm.

Luke: 44:35

And, you know, I think that's just so it's so tempting because, you know, in our jobs, sometimes our jobs can be a place where we feel a sense of control, a sense of accomplishment. Whereas if we don't feel that elsewhere, we can run to that as a place to kind of find that.

Cameron: 44:57

Mhmm. Yeah. So does

Luke: 45:00

that mean, Cameron, that we just completely focus in on our spouse in totality?

Cameron: 45:07

Actually, no. Like because the last idol in marriage is our spouse. Yeah. And it becomes so easy. Yeah.

Cameron: 45:21

Like all of our attention, all of our focus, all of our energy. And if you don't think your spouse can become an idol, your spouse can definitely become an idol.

Luke: 45:31

Very much.

Cameron: 45:31

When you're when when you're running around in life managing their emotions. Mhmm. Managing your emotions or your actions to make sure that they're, like

Luke: 45:48

They're happy.

Cameron: 45:48

They're happy. They're They like you. Mhmm.

Luke: 45:50

There's something good of you.

Cameron: 45:52

Yep. Or even you're compromising some values that you have. Mhmm. Ideally, you know, you'd wanna have similar values, you and your spouse. Yeah.

Cameron: 46:05

It's the same values.

Luke: 46:06

Right.

Cameron: 46:07

But doesn't always happen that way. Yeah. And so when you begin to compromise some of the values that you have, and that can be values around money, time spent, family, faith, whatever, you begin to compromise some of those values. You show that your spouse has a place in your life that, is a place in your life that is unhealthily powerful. Yeah.

Cameron: 46:44

Yeah. So our spouses are not our spouses are not the goal of marriage. What? The goal is always Jesus.

Luke: 46:55

Mhmm.

Cameron: 46:56

There's always the pursuit of Jesus. There's always the faithfulness of Jesus. It was all it's always obedience to Jesus. It's always love of God Mhmm. More.

Cameron: 47:06

Yeah. In all just like in all of life. And so in all of life equals in all of marriage.

Luke: 47:14

Yep. And idolatry is this, like I think idolatry has a lot to do with, like, identity. Mhmm. When we like like, we want something from our job, our kids, or our spouse to give us something that's going to make us feel whole.

Cameron: 47:35

Mhmm.

Luke: 47:35

To make us feel complete. I'm a great spouse. I'm a great dad or mom. I'm a great, employee boss. I'm accomplished.

Luke: 47:47

I can do these things. We're wanting some sort of, like, identity statement to be filled Mhmm. By that idol.

Cameron: 47:55

Mhmm.

Luke: 47:55

And spouse's kids and a job can't fill it ultimately. Mhmm.

Cameron: 48:01

Yep. Yeah. Okay. So these are some patterns that I would say to avoid. Avoid?

Cameron: 48:07

Yeah. Selfishness, unforgiveness, bitterness, idolatry.

Luke: 48:12

Mhmm. There's lots. There's tons.

Cameron: 48:14

But those are those are some that I see, happening a lot, and doing a lot of damage.

Luke: 48:22

Yep. So So join us in the next episode. We'll talk about patterns of connection. So not just the negative side of this, but the positive side of it. Yeah.

Luke: 48:31

And, as we kind of wrap up, little more spirit

Cameron: 48:36

conference series. Something about

Luke: 48:38

it. Yeah. Send us your questions and comments as always, and we'll see you next time.