Advent - Why do we have to wait on God?
I'm to follow God, not because I want the life that I want, or I want him to bless my life, or use him as, like, a sanctioning tool for my decisions.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:But I have to follow God when it sucks because he's God. Welcome to The Uncut Podcast. I'm pastor Luke.
Cameron:And I am pastor Cameron.
Luke:And this is The Uncut Podcast for honest, uncut conversations about faith, life, and history.
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Cameron:Yep. So, well, it's the advent season.
Luke:It is.
Cameron:We are officially in advent season this year Mhmm. Which seems unreal. December. We're in December. Yeah.
Cameron:And because Thanksgiving was late this year, Advent was also late this year. But Advent is
Luke:a season. Yeah. Because people outside the church don't say Advent.
Cameron:Is it Christmas?
Luke:No. Christmas. I I would say I would even wager that there's a good amount of churches that don't even say Advent. They say Christmas too.
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:So, like, yeah, you might be like, what's what's Advent? Or maybe you have a sense of what Advent is. But Right. Yeah. I
Cameron:had a seminary professor who was kind of like an old church guy. Mhmm.
Luke:And
Cameron:he was very passionate Oh. About the church that he led. He was also a pastor.
Luke:Mhmm. The
Cameron:church that he led during the advent season
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:He would not sing Christmas carols. Mhmm. And he said it was a really big pain point for his church.
Luke:I bet. I bet that bugged a lot of people.
Cameron:Uh-huh. Mhmm. Because Advent in, like, the classic liturgical sense is the period, Before Christmas. Before Christmas. It is the waiting.
Cameron:Mhmm. It is the anticipation. It is the coming Yep. Of the Christ.
Luke:Right. And then Christmas was more than a day as well. It was 12 days. 12 days. That's 12 days of Christmas is not the 12 days leading up to Christmas.
Luke:No. It's the 12 days of Christmas. Yes. We we shortchange ourselves in how we celebrate Christmas in
Cameron:the days. We do. And then there's even, there's an additional liturgical season after Christmas.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Season of epiphany, which marks or is supposed to mark the, coming of the wise men Yep. To visit, Jesus and Mary and Joseph, which is also something that we don't celebrate. Right. So, if you go if you're in high church Yep. So that would be like Catholic
Luke:Anglican Lutheran.
Cameron:Anglican. Some Lutherans.
Luke:Some and some Anglicans.
Cameron:And some Anglicans. I don't know about the orthodox. Do you know? Yeah. Do you know like, are they in
Luke:They
Cameron:Are they following that type of liturgical calendar? I don't know enough about them.
Luke:It's it's pretty it's similar. It doesn't line up. So, like, it doesn't, I think, like, the days are different. Or I know they're definitely different for Easter. I know Orthodox Easter is on a different week than, everybody else.
Luke:That's right. Don't remember if the same is true for Christmas or not. And I don't remember if they if they call it advent or if it's something else. Mhmm. But it's analogous, though.
Luke:The the structure is analogous, so
Cameron:Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So if you are in any of those traditions, you likely do celebrate maybe a little bit more closely those seasons
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Than modern Protestantism does.
Luke:Yeah. At least your your liturgy, your Sunday liturgy will reflect that more.
Cameron:Uh-huh.
Luke:You'll have this idea of advent and then Christmas and that being kind of more than just one singular day or Sunday
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And that kind of the things that happen after that. And that's what the that's what advent is, is this idea of waiting for Christmas to come. So even calling it the Christmas season is a little bit, it's misleading if you're following that traditional calendar.
Cameron:Mhmm. Yeah. Because the word advent comes from the Latin word
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Adventus Yep. Which means coming
Luke:Yep. Right? Or arrival
Cameron:Or arrival.
Luke:Or happening or something like that.
Cameron:Yeah. So the whole season is based around this sense of waiting. Yep. Like, waiting for something to come. Mhmm.
Cameron:And it's not really a I guess it's more of, like, it's not a something.
Luke:Yeah. It's someone.
Cameron:It's a someone. Right? The coming of the coming of the messiah. And so because we're in Advent and we're preaching on Advent and we're thinking about Advent, we thought we would take maybe a few episodes even Yeah. And just talk on those themes
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:The themes of waiting Yep. Of expectation
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Of coming. And, and just see where it, see where it takes us.
Luke:Yeah. What would you say like, I think I think this is a bigger conversation when we get closer to, like, Easter. Because when we've done, we've done some acknowledgment or celebration of lent in our church. And Lent in Ash Wednesday, those those in particular tend to have a little bit more, people tend to have a little bit more baggage with those if they grew up in a very, non denom, low church, not a whole lot of you know, it can feel like isn't this too Catholic? I don't think we get that as much when we celebrate advent because it's Christmas.
Cameron:Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Luke:But, like, what would you say to someone who's just like you're using this Latin word, it's advent. Like, are you guys just protestants? Or are you guys just Catholics pretending to be nondenominational preachers for some reason? Like, what's, you know, what's what's going on? Like
Cameron:Yeah. I mean, of course, like, an argument can always be made that we're just fighting over definitions. Yeah. You're you know, we're just fighting over, like, who gets the right to describe, who gets the right then, who gets the right to name the season that we're in, and what is the season all about. Yeah.
Cameron:Because at, if you were to take a person who was saying something like that, like, well, why are you using this Latin word? What are you trying to be Catholic or whatever? And you got down into what they were really upset about
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Or what they were really questioning. It wouldn't be about the they they wouldn't be questioning the celebration of the season. Like, we shouldn't celebrate the season.
Luke:Right. Because it's likely I don't I don't know. I guess I'm having a picture of somebody in my mind. Like, not someone specific, but I'm just kind of attributing some attributes. I'm wagering that the type of person might also be, you know, kind of like, yeah.
Luke:Let's not take Christ out of Christmas. Like, don't don't like, it's all about Jesus. Like, not talking to someone who's anti Jesus, anti Christ, like, is all about Jesus would, you know, sent would be alongside of just, like, let's not, you know, let's not make it x mas. Let's make it Christmas or whatever.
Cameron:You wanna make it Christosmas? Christosmas?
Luke:I heard that argument when I was in high school is that the x is more close to the Greek for Christ, and so is a more accurate Yeah. Keeping Christ in Christmas. But, anyways, so yeah. Like, we say Advent in our church, and we sell we sell celebrate Advent, but we also, like, say Christmas and things
Cameron:like that.
Luke:But, like, other churches like, if you go to pretty much any church right now, they're doing a Christmas sermon series. Yep. They've got something that's Christmas themed. They've decorated it. Yeah.
Luke:We're just calling it Advent. Yeah.
Cameron:I think well, one of the reasons that I like to maintain that language is because I think that the theme of waiting, the theme of, like, the anticipation of god coming
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Or his deliverance or his arrival or his presence or his promises or whatever is not just relegated to the Christmas story. Yeah. It's not just a Luke chapter 2 Mhmm. Theme. You know, it's it feels to me like you like, we could make the argument that, that we could make the argument that the theme of advent is a theme that starts in Genesis 3.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Where where at the fall, God is already all already foreshadowing or, forecasting, however you wanna call it.
Luke:Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron:He's already foreshadowing the the deliverance that will come Right. Through Christ.
Luke:Yeah. That passage you're talking about is often called the protoevangelion.
Cameron:Right.
Luke:And is, you know, god gives a curse, but then he gives a small little promise that's sandwiched in there. Right? He says, there will come a descendant of Eve Mhmm. Who will rise up
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:Who will crush the serpent's head
Cameron:Yep.
Luke:But the serpent will strike his heel. Yep. And that is considered by theologians for many, many centuries to have referred to the eventual coming of Christ.
Cameron:Right. So I don't know. It feels to me but tell me what you think that, like, all now and then all of humanity after the proto Yamagelion, all of humanity is looking towards this moment Mhmm. Where the messiah comes, where the deliverer comes.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And so all of creation looks towards it, actually. And so all of the old testament is advent. Mhmm. The whole old testament is this is like a the season of advent. Yeah.
Cameron:Where's the Messiah? Where's the Messiah? Where's the deliverer? Where's the deliverer? Where's the one that will make all things right?
Cameron:Yep. Yep. And then I guess you'd be like, well, okay. The new testament comes and Jesus is there. Okay.
Cameron:We don't need to we don't need to wait anymore. We don't need to celebrate Advent anymore. Mhmm. But Jesus himself, before he ascended back into heaven
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:After the resurrection, was like, wait wait for my return. Yes. I'm coming back. Look for my return. Right.
Cameron:Live as though I'm returning. Mhmm. Because I am. And so this there's only, like, a really 2, like, little blips of non Advent life Mhmm. In the garden before the fall
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And during the earthly ministry of Jesus.
Luke:Right. Like, when Christ is saying, like, why would they fast when the bridegroom is with them?
Cameron:Right.
Luke:But there will be a day when they will fast
Cameron:Exactly. When I
Luke:am no longer here.
Cameron:Exactly. So you're you're talking about 2 little blips of time Yep. In biblical history where where humanity is not in some season of Advent. So I want to celebrate Advent. I want to, still use that term
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Because I think it is a major and significant metanarrative in scripture.
Luke:Yeah. Yeah. I think it's there's definitely a way in which you can read you can read the old testament. And if you just look at, the chosen son
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:Like, theme in the old patriarchs and the old testament and Abraham's almost sacrifice of Isaac. You can even go to, there's a small blip where Moses even, offered to sacrifice himself for a moment. There's all these places where there there's there's these different images of the chosen son, the chosen seed, and then there's the chosen king through all of and then all of that is all supposed to be creating the sense of drama of, like, is this the chosen king? Is this the chosen seed? Is this the chosen son?
Luke:And the answer always ends up being no. Even if they're really great like Moses or something like that, they still somehow fall short of being the one who crushes the serpent head Mhmm. Until that is gets answered in the gospels. But then you see that same advent language being used by Paul when he begins to say all of creation is in groaning and longing. It's in the pains of childbirth until it's redemption, the redemption of our bodies, our souls, and all of creation up in Christ's second coming.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:There is this I don't know where this term, like, specifically originated. So it either originated with arth Arthurian legend legends. So legends to do with, like, King Arthur and the round table, the knights, Camelot, all that. Or it may have originated with Christ and then was co opted and used in that, using the used in those legends. I don't know which one came first or where it came from.
Luke:But I know that there is this, one of the collection of the Arthurian legends is called the once and future king. This idea of King Arthur embodies he was the king of England. And so he once was the king, and then he will be the future king of England so as much as every monarch or king embodies those virtues and the essence of King Arthur.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:I saw a, a book and it was titled The Once and Future Coming of Christ. And I was like, I really, really like that idea because Christ has come already Mhmm. But is also coming again.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And is coming into our hearts every single day. Every day that we open ourselves up and invite god into our day to day life, there's an invitation for him to be present and dwell among us and for us to abide in him. Mhmm. So I I love that really poetic language of the once and future coming of Christ because it wraps up that fact that we're celebrating that Christ did come, but then we're also hearkening to the fact that Christ will come again.
Cameron:Mhmm. Mhmm. Right. And I think in the in Advent in Advent celebration or in the I don't know. I was gonna when you the the problem is that we only talk about Advent once a year.
Cameron:Yeah. And so when you do talk about Advent only once a year during the Christmas season, then it feels like, well, you there's there's so much that you could unpack about the huge theme of Advent in the bib in biblical history, pre Jesus.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:But also everything every bit of hope that we have, every bit of, like every bit of hope that we have is hope for is hope in the midst of Advent. It's hope for the future coming Yeah. Of Christ. It's hope for our eternal salvation. It's hope for our, like, the redemption of our circumstances Mhmm.
Cameron:And of our souls. And so I what I was gonna say is that one of the things that leaves me wanting more during the advent season is to also preach specifically on or lead or talks, you know, more specifically on the second advent.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:To more fully root advent as a comprehensive biblical theme Yeah. Rather than just like a Luke 2 Yeah. Type of theme.
Luke:Mhmm. And
Cameron:maybe, you know, maybe that's what we need to do. Maybe we need to have an advent series
Luke:Next year's gonna be on Revelation.
Cameron:In July.
Luke:Advent. You know?
Cameron:Yeah. You have an advent c series in July. Mhmm. And you make people really confused Yeah. About, like wait a second.
Luke:Advent in July.
Cameron:Yeah. Pull out the advent wreath. Light some advent candles. You know? Yeah.
Cameron:And, I mean, maybe, like, intentionally use the oddity of the season Mhmm. To paint a really comprehensive picture.
Luke:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think because it's, you know, you can get really caught up in the, like, rehearsal of the first coming of Christ. The Luke 2, Christ being born, Mary, Bethlehem, the, stable, all that stuff.
Luke:And I think what that like, part of that rehearsing and one of the reasons I like using the more traditional terms and leaning into, church history and church tradition is I like to know that we're participating in something that the church has been doing for a long time.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:That we're kind of retelling the same story. And that the story is ultimately meant to not just remind us of what has happened, but get us to be in a place where we can see how they how that was experienced and then overlay our own waiting on top of the story. Mhmm. So that we're like, you know because there is something about that story of, like, Mary and Joseph being in a very vulnerable position, traveling to Bethlehem. They're rejected.
Luke:They can't get into the inns. There's no place for them to stay. They're kinda out on their own. It was really interesting, actually. I because I just did a last week, did a portion out of Luke.
Luke:Was that Luke 3? Where Mary and Joseph go to the temple to make sacrifices. And there's a very small phrase where it says that Mary and Joseph made sacrifices for themselves, when really the the sacrifices it was mentioning, the rights of purification were really meant just for Mary because she had gone through the thing of childbirth. But many commentators look at that and say it's a good signal that Joseph had to participate in helping deliver the baby, which would have not been a thing that Joseph would have normally have done. There would have been a midwife or something like that, but there may not have been a midwife because Joseph himself also had to go through those, purity rituals that were mentioned in the passage.
Luke:So they're potentially just all on their own, and they're in this likely cave with animals giving birth. And but in the middle of all of that messiness is like this hope. Mhmm. And, like, we can resonate with the humanness of that. Yeah.
Luke:And wanting to say, okay. We're in the middle of my messy, uncertain life. Do I Yeah. Do I need hope? Do I need Christ to show up in the middle of
Cameron:Yeah. Totally, like, missed expectations about life. Like, I don't know that Mary or Joseph ever had a dream that they would become pregnant in that manner.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:That's the way that they would build their family. Yep. And if we think rationally about it, it seems so miraculous and beautiful to us now. Mhmm. But like you were just saying, imagine placing yourself in the story and just kind of, like, what crushing circumstances that must have.
Luke:Well, this and I I think sometimes it's hard to understand the the social ostracization, the social, like, stigma that was probably surrounding them because the passage doesn't say much about it. Mhmm. But it's fair to assume that possibly some family and friends were all go like, yeah. The holy spirit. Right.
Luke:Right, Mary. Exactly. Uh-huh, Joseph. You know? Like In
Cameron:a similar like like, we all would.
Luke:Yeah. Well, people still do that. Right? People still struggle to accept the virgin birth. Right.
Luke:And say, oh, well, it's rather it's the bible including this, you know, marriage and child
Cameron:out of wedlock. Like and Yeah. Trying to spiritualize it or romanticize the reality of it. Mhmm. Yeah.
Cameron:Yeah. That would be the yeah. That that's that would even be an interesting that'd be an interesting podcast topic. Talking about the like, how central to how central to Christian faith is a virginal conception.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Let's come let's come Let's
Luke:come back. Let's come back. Let's come back.
Cameron:We'll put a pin in that one. It's in most of the creeds.
Luke:It is.
Cameron:It's It And it's in scripture.
Luke:Mhmm. It's confessed pretty pretty staunchly.
Cameron:Yeah. Yeah. So okay. Anyway But yeah. Any so, like, the idea of Advent not being just a ancient biblical theme Mhmm.
Cameron:But about how applicable it is when you overlay those themes on our our lives Yeah. And how we're waiting on God for Any number of things. Yep. And, you know, we're we're we're we're waiting, Lord. We're looking for you.
Cameron:Mhmm. We're watching for you. We need you. We're full of expectation for you to act on our behalf or in history Mhmm. Or to do this thing.
Cameron:That's essentially what we isn't that a large part of the the spirit behind even our prayers?
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:It's like, lord, we're waiting for like, lord, would you please bring healing? Mhmm. Lord, would you please move? Would you please show yourself to us? Yep.
Cameron:Provide, you know, whatever. It is prayer is an advent. Yep. Is an advent practice. Mhmm.
Cameron:And so I think this so then the season then of Advent or the celebration of Advent is perhaps one of the most practically applicable times of the year Yep. For us.
Luke:Yeah. Well and it's a because there's the holidays. Like, one of the things too is that, like, the holidays are really difficult for a lot of people. Like, I feel like the older we get, the more people struggle with the holidays sometimes because there are people who are absent or it's a place of, like, of wishing we had, like, a certain family dynamic and not experiencing or having that. Mhmm.
Luke:And good grief. It gets dark at what in the afternoon?
Cameron:5 o'clock.
Luke:Yeah. I'm like, that's rough on me. Like, just the sheer darkness of the whole season and and feeling like, you know, everything kind of has slows down because particularly like, if you're listening to this and you're not getting snow in the winter, I don't know. I've God bless you. Yeah.
Luke:God bless you. Flat your heart. But up here because
Cameron:we're getting crushed over there.
Luke:We're get we just had a big snowstorm. And, like, it just slows you down. Mhmm. You just can't do as much. Things close down.
Luke:Like, you're just not as active. There's this whole kind of, like, stopping that happens in the middle of winter. Mhmm. And this anticipation for spring and for renewal and all of that, but that can't come without Christ coming.
Cameron:Yeah. So a question for your own, like, your own application of Advent and waiting on God
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And, like, looking to the future. What would you say if you had to, like, pinpoint 1 or 2 points in your life where you can remember, like, that you were actively looking, watching, waiting, needing, and expecting
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:God to do a miracle or show up or provide or and you could, like, even just feel in your soul this sense of, like, I am just waiting in faith. Hoping in faith.
Luke:Yep. Honestly, the most recent one that comes to my mind and probably one of the bigger ones was end of 2020, the church I was a part of closed because we were a church plant in Chicago. And, we closed, like, we found I've we've we made the decision to close the church plant on, like, December, like, right about now, I think. Mhmm. It was, like, early it was, like, the first or second week of December, 2020.
Luke:We we were just a small church plant at that point. We were struggling. We've been going on for several years, and COVID had really just gave us, like, the last one two punch. And our last Sunday service was held over Zoom in my apartment. It's a miserable way to end a church.
Luke:Mhmm. And I like yeah. It was the Sunday before Christmas Eve. So I think Christmas Eve was, like, on a Tuesday or something like that. So it was, like, the that Sunday.
Luke:So we packed up all the stuff that we had left over from that little Zoom livestream Sunday service. I packed up all of my stuff because I didn't have a just too short of a time for me to really find gainful employment in Chicago, less than a month's notice. And I could have, like, gone and worked at Starbucks or something like that, but I was just not I wasn't even sure I wanted to stay in Chicago long term.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:So, you know, I was fortunate enough to be able to go back to my parents. So I how how old was I? 31? I packed up all of my stuff and I got home, like, Christmas Eve or something like that. I'm back at my home church.
Luke:All my stuff's in boxes, and I'm living in one of my brother's rooms while he's away at college because my room's been repurposed something else. Mhmm. And I have no idea where I'm gonna go, what I'm gonna do. Where where will I be a pastor? Will I be a pastor?
Luke:Like, all of those questions were, like, really big. And I had no idea what was gonna happen.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And that was like a 6 month it was like a solid 6 month job search experience where I was pretty dedicated to wanting to come back into ministry, but was really struggling to find a church where I felt like I could be like, I, it was just very, very difficult. And, you know, and I'm just like, I think it wasn't until I had conversations with people, had a conversation with someone who was a local pastor, you know, trying to just network and make connections. And he was a good guy. And but he he was just he was like, you know, have you considered maybe you just need to be a fantastic lay person, Like, be a lay leader, be an elder. You know?
Luke:Maybe maybe you need to be willing to let go of ministry as like a thing. That was a really tough question to wrestle with because I felt very called. Do feel very called to ministry. But, Yeah. I think I was I think by the time I finally interviewed with you and interviewed for here, the position here, I was like I was like, alright.
Luke:I got one more, like, month or something like that. And then I'm I'm getting a job
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:Doing something. Mhmm. I'll still keep doing the job search, but I'll stop doing, like, full time jobs hunting and other things. I'm gonna start working elsewhere. And then Mhmm.
Luke:Because I had had enough of a, what do you call it? Severance and living with my parents allowed me to kind of just focus full time on job hunting. I'd wake up and put out, like, 4 or 5 resumes and cover letters a day and hear back from 1 maybe. It was abysmal. Mhmm.
Cameron:So yeah. What were some of the things that you if you recall, like, your relation the relational dynamic between you and the lord during that time. Like, were there specific things like your in your prayer life that you were saying to him, asking him, what he was saying to you or that you felt or sense that him saying to you, but, like, what was it like, what was it like in the waiting?
Luke:Freaking tough. Yeah. It was really tough because I I did a lot of wrestling because I wanted I was getting to a point I actually I actually was having a little bit I was struggling with some some a little bit of doubt in my face. And I was just like, where is all of this coming from? And I talked with a friend, and I I read a a really good book.
Luke:And I was just like, I became convicted. I actually wasn't having any significant faith doubt. I just was not happy with the way my life was working out. And I wanted to jump ship and live life without concerning myself about what God wanted for me. Mhmm.
Luke:And be able to just live my life without worrying about consequences or morality or, my calling or anything like that because that just would have been easier. So there was this really deep wrestling that was going on in my soul of, like, man, it would be way easier to just do it my way.
Cameron:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Luke:And, like, it may it came out in me saying, well, maybe I wanna not Maybe I don't I don't know about all this Christianity stuff. And I had to sit and I was like, where did all that come from? Out of the middle of nowhere. Not something I regularly experience. And some deep heart searching, and I was like, this isn't actually doubt.
Luke:It's not actually a concern of my faith. It's a rebellion of my heart over the circumstances I find myself in. Mhmm. You know? And I had to I had to repent of that and, like, resubmit myself to god's will and his timing and all of that.
Luke:Yeah. That was really tough. Yeah. But it was also a season where there was a lot of I had to give god a lot of I had to let go of a lot of, like, of what was and what used to be. And then a lot of just, being willing to say yes to what was next.
Luke:And I didn't know what that was going to be. Mhmm. Because, like, a hunting for pastoral position can take 6 months to a year. You know? And that's a long time to be looking for a job.
Luke:So, I just I I was at that time, I was also reading, a little bit of Jordan Peterson in his second book. Which Jordan Peterson, like, I have complicated thoughts about. He's not like I'm not referencing him here as, like, some sort of Christian hero or something like that. So don't don't misconstrue my
Cameron:story. Completely clear if he's Christian.
Luke:Yeah. Yeah. So don't don't misconstrue my quoting of him as, like, some sort of endorsement of everything he says. But he has his idea of, like, chaos is typically ascribed as a really negative thing when we have chaos. But he pointed out he's like, well, chaos is actually just potential.
Luke:It's when you have order or structure that's been destroyed, you have a lot of chaos. And in that chaos is the opportunity for something new.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And a lot of and I immediately saw how that is like it's a very biblical idea. God created out of chaos. He created order. And there were things that were both God both raised things up and he destroyed things. There was this always this cycle.
Luke:And I there was this I was just like, what my life had been up to then in Chicago and way how I thought my, pastoral life and where I was gonna live was all came crushing down, and I was left with, like, a lot of chaos. But then I had to sit in the hopefulness of waiting for that potential opportunity that that represented. And just being a lot of, like, I spent I went on a lot of walks, a lot of prayer walks with the Lord and just saying, like, what's next and just trying to be patient.
Cameron:Mhmm. Yeah. I think there is a lot to be said about what happens in the waiting. Mhmm. Because there is just like a multi multiplicity of directions that the waiting can take you.
Cameron:Yeah. The waiting can take you into some deep, dark waters.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:You know, even to the point, like you said, of, like, do I even wanna believe
Luke:this? Do I wanna do this?
Cameron:Do I wanna do this? Right. I'm waiting for this, but do I like, that could be a dark place.
Luke:Nope. It was very dark. Yeah. It was very, very dark. I had to have some friends who really helped me walk out of that.
Cameron:Yeah. And but then, you know, the waiting can also, in different types of waiting Mhmm. Or different types of seasons, they're you know, it can do the opposite. Yeah.
Luke:It can
Cameron:send you in a different direction.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:You know? And so it's not well, I think it we would be wise. The church would be wise to recognize the reality and the tendency of both of those things.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Or both of those patterns in people that in the waiting, you can the waiting can be extraordinarily, like, difficult, obviously. Yeah. But it can bring it we have to address what happens in the waiting, not just that we're waiting.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:Like, that's where we minister to people. Mhmm. It is in the waiting.
Luke:Yep. Because out of that season came a lot of there was a lot of good things that came out of that. It was super uncomfortable. But, like, the ability to, like, it I felt like there was a season where, like, the Lord was helping me understand the past and everything that I was coming out of.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And then there was a lot of wrestling with him in. Am am I willing to go where he's leading me into the future? And and then it was honestly just faith building. And so it was a lot of hills and valleys, and it was but it was, it was good for my soul. I wouldn't have chosen to have done it though.
Luke:If if someone could have said, like, Luke, you wanna sign up for this, like, season of waiting? No. I I'd rather have it now. Yep. No.
Luke:I'm good. Mhmm.
Cameron:Yeah. None of us wants to wait No. For those things. Mhmm. Yeah.
Cameron:But, yeah, what happens in the waiting is is, I think where the where the discussion really is. Like, how do you how do you how do you wait? Almost like, you know, how we can talk we we talk about maybe, like, there's some it's a really preachable thing to talk about how to suffer well. Mhmm. Because suffering is such a universal human experience
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:That, it kind of demands that pastors and preachers bring some context to it Yep. From the pulpit. And, I feel like the same the same in when you're when you're talking about or when people are in the season of waiting. It's like, how do you how do we wait well?
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Or how do we wait for the Lord? Yeah. And, that could be, you know, how, like, how do we wait for the next job? How do we wait for a sense of calling? How do we wait for a child?
Cameron:How do we wait for, how do we wait for a loved one who doesn't know the Lord? Mhmm. How do we wait for provision or how do we wait for healing? Like, how do we wait well? Yeah.
Cameron:What might it look like to wait poorly? How do I know whether or not what I'm doing in this season of waiting that I'm experiencing is a good thing or a bad thing or a neutral thing or whatever. But, yeah, that must have been really I'm just only I can only imagine only imagine. Well, I guess I can't only imagine. I've been I've been a part of closing of a church before.
Cameron:Mhmm. But, not quite the same thing as you experienced. But that I can I can imagine, you know, if we had to make the decision to close conduit Oh, yeah? How just Painful. Yeah.
Cameron:How painful Yeah. That would be. Yeah. And and and, yeah, even asking the question about, like, what am I gonna do next? Because you never imagine at least I I have not imagined.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:The only thing that I have imagined on the other side of conduit is retirement. Yeah. It doesn't mean that it, like, I'm gonna retire from here. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't.
Cameron:I don't know. Right. Like
Luke:But you're not you're you're not constantly coming up with exit plans.
Cameron:Right. I Right. You know, I'm just like and so to have that just like, here it is. Mhmm. It's over.
Cameron:Yeah. So quickly. I I can I I can see how, even just thinking about that possibility? I can see how you get to the other side of that decision and you're and you're like, I don't know if I wanna do this Yeah. Again.
Cameron:Right. I don't know if I wanna wait into that. Yeah. I don't know if I wanna wait for that. I'd rather wait for something else, Lord.
Luke:So Yeah. Because I just remember having you know, there's like I feel like there's 2 types of church planners. The ones that are, like, love it and they're rock stars, and they're like they feel like their church is just going from one success to another, and then the other is discouraged church planters. Mhmm. And I met a lot of discouraged church planters and Mhmm.
Luke:Man, even as you were just talking there, I was just like, oh, yeah. Like, it was tough because some people, when we closed the church, like, got it. They were just like, yeah. Like, get it. It's probably a wise decision.
Luke:Other people were really, really upset. They're like, why would you close this church? It's such a great community. It was really hard to say goodbye to my friends and my wife out there. And Mhmm.
Luke:That was and that sucked. Yeah. Sorry. I'm having my own personal reflection there, but that was just a, I wouldn't wanna do that again.
Cameron:Yeah. No. Definitely not. Definitely not. Well, thanks for sharing that.
Cameron:I mean Yeah. Because I that's you said, like, that is the stuff of Advent.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:That's an Advent story.
Luke:Oh, yeah. Like, it was we we sang, like, I the the part that sticks out to me the most is that song by, I think it was by King's Kaleidoscope or Sing Team, one of those churches or one of those, kind of indie Christian bands that kind of does worship ish music. They that song, all glory to Christ, that's set to, old lane sign. You know, all Mhmm. Mhmm.
Luke:And that was the last song I think we sang for our church. Mhmm. And, like, at that point, it was me and Matt, the other pastor, singing. So we didn't even have anybody that could really sing Mhmm. Leaving that song.
Luke:And we just sang that to a little camera, and it's just, like, kind of a declaration of, like, let this be for god's glory. Mhmm. We just don't know where it's gonna bow go. And it was a very difficult season of waiting. But, you know, it's a and it's it I just had never even put together, like, the fact that, like, that was right in.
Luke:Well, I mean, it was super sad that it was right before Christmas. I was like, Christmas Eve. I remember going back to my church and people being like, oh, how's, like, your church going? I'm like, oh, we we closed yesterday. Mhmm.
Luke:Mhmm. That was fun. But the Lord was faithful in it. And that's the story of so much of the old testament is people, Abraham, waiting for his son, Isaac.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:The people of Israel waiting for deliverance and then waiting in the wilderness and God being faithful. And just how do we be with God in that waiting?
Cameron:Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna ask and and, I mean, you had talked a little bit about it, but like what you felt like you learned most from God about God or whatever in the waiting?
Cameron:I don't know if you, if there, if like you've ever reflected on that. Like, what was it? What what in that season did what in that season did God accomplish in you that would have been next to impossible had you not had to wait like you did.
Luke:Yeah. That God is God regardless of what I want or how things work out. That, like, I'm to follow god not because of, like, not because I want the life that I want or I want him to bless my life or just give him or use him as, like, a sanctioning tool for my decisions.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:But that, like, I have to follow God when it sucks. Mhmm. Because he's God. Mhmm. Not because he makes me happy or Mhmm.
Cameron:And he's in the suck.
Luke:What?
Cameron:He's in the suck too.
Luke:The suck. Right? Like, he's in there. He's in the midst of that with me.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And, like, god is god regardless of my feelings.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And, like, you know, not that I had not ex you know, there was different different types of obstacles and hurdles and things that I've experienced in life. But that was one where I was just like, I was very much there was this part of my soul that needed to let go of following God because I, because he made me feel good or because he did good things for me or, because I felt like I just was supposed to or expected to. I had to remake the decision that, no. I'm following god because he's god of the universe.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And he's deserving of that Mhmm. Regardless of how my life works out.
Cameron:Mhmm. Yeah. It's good stuff. Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron:The practicality of Advent and waiting, and what we learned in those moments is pretty much, I I it's pretty expansive. So we Yeah. Can have lots of conversation about that. Well, we I mean, we hope that I hope do you have any other thoughts on that? Or
Luke:No. Not really. I think that's probably enough for one episode. Yeah. It's like we covered quite a bit of ground.
Luke:Right. Yeah. Maybe in the next episode, I'll ask you where you've waited. I feel like we don't quite have enough time to ask you the similar question.
Cameron:Yeah. Yeah. I definitely know that answer. Yeah. But, yeah, maybe we'll cover that in the next episode.
Cameron:Little maybe series on Advent and waiting and expectation and seeing the Lord or waiting for the Lord to move, and, hope you enjoyed today's episode. Mhmm. Like it. Share it. Subscribe to it.
Cameron:Mhmm. Wherever it is that you're listening or watching watching it, that would be a great blessing to us. I was I'm noticing our view count lately is lower Mhmm. Since we took that break.
Luke:Yeah. I think that consistency Yep. You know?
Cameron:And so help to, kinda pump those numbers up. These are rookie numbers here. These are rookie numbers.
Luke:Like our other numbers are
Cameron:really big. Yeah. Yeah. But, anyway, so thanks for listening. We'll, we'll we'll catch you next time.
