Reflections: A Theology of Space & Other Lessons
Welcome to the uncut podcast. I'm pastor Luke. I am
Cameron:pastor Gary.
Luke:And this is the Uncut podcast where we have honest, uncut conversation about days of fire. Well, we are at the time of the release of this recording, we're past Christmas. Mhmm. And we're getting ready. We're looking towards the new year.
Luke:Mhmm. So, we thought we would, I don't know, do sort of a a wrap up of our years thing reflections on on leadership and ministry and, things that maybe we've learned kind of be a kind of a a dump of, thoughts and lessons from the year or something like that.
Cameron:Something like that. Some some kind of year end some kind of year end, recap or whatever. Mhmm. Whether it's maybe a book we read, books we read, experiences we had. Yep.
Cameron:I Think we went through.
Luke:Mhmm. Cameron, did you have any ideas of where we should start?
Cameron:Well, I was trying to think of, like, what would be what were some of the most more significant things that or impact impactful or, like, shifting culture shifting, paradigm shifting
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Things that have happened here at Conduit in the past year. Yeah. And there are a number, not in really any particular order, but I think one of the bigger ones would be the addition of a second service.
Luke:Yeah. That was like a big ministry shift this year.
Cameron:Yeah. And, you know, we started kinda making plans for that probably this time last year.
Luke:In earnest? Yeah.
Cameron:Yeah. Kind of recalibrating the space downstairs here to to kinda fit the vision, kinda see what the or, like, discover what the vision was gonna be and how we wanted it to maybe change or be different than than what we were already doing or and why we were doing it, casting vision for why we were doing it, and then launched that out in May 0, which it still seems pretty new, even though for the majority of the year, we did it.
Luke:Yeah. Well, it was like, like, I remember doing that. It was a, we ended up launching at what, just after Easter?
Cameron:Yeah. Right. May,.
Luke:0 May 0. Yeah. And it was kind of, it was a bit of a scramble. At least it felt like it, to kind of go from, you know, one single service and then renovating a space for it. That was like the other thing too, is that we had to get the space ready.
Luke:So it was more than it was the people leadership leading up to it, but then it was also the logistical and practical leadership of getting that space ready for a second space.
Cameron:Yeah. Yeah. And then came the, like, the energy shift that happens
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:In the people who are kind of making the services happen or making Sunday morning happen. You know, you, me, our worship leader, director of operations, conduit kids volunteers, hospitality people, parking volunteers, like, just all of the various people that gonna make the thing go on Sunday. And, wondering what was gonna come of it and if it was gonna work or if it was not gonna work. And when I say work, I mean, if it was gonna be if it was going to take some of the capacity pressure
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Off of the the just the one service that we had prior. And, I don't know. I think reflecting back on that and seeing
Luke:if
Cameron:it kinda met that goal, I would say that I think it did. Yeah. It did relieve some of that
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Capacity pressure at that time. And, you know, now here we are just seven months seven months into that endeavor, and we're maybe starting conversations about, well, what now? Because capacities for both services are getting a little, a little full. Yep. They're climbing they're climbing the percentage ladder Mhmm.
Cameron:Of when a switch needs to be made or a change needs to be needs to be made, which I kinda have felt maybe a little in like, anecdotally felt like, man, we're full
Luke:still. Yeah.
Cameron:But you kinda brought the conversation out into the open last night in a leadership team meeting. Like, hey. We probably should be thinking about what we do when or if. So. Yeah.
Luke:That's yeah. And that's the thing that was I I think that one, I think that's a sign that the second service was quote unquote a success. However you wanna kind of talk about it. Is it?
Cameron:We could say it was the right thing to do.
Luke:Yeah. It was the right thing to do. It it created more space for people who wanted to show up, but maybe were feeling a little squeezed out just even physically, you know, and so that that's what happened. Mhmm. And that's a great thing.
Luke:But now we just have to figure out like, okay, do we what do we do now? Is there something we do now? Is there yeah.
Cameron:Right. Right. Yeah. How do you feel, how do you feel emotionally about that?
Luke:About like having to do something else again? I mean, I'm a sucker for new things. Mhmm. I'm mister, like, yes. My, my, my area of growth has been in consistency and finishing.
Luke:Mhmm. So I love to start a new thing or, re envision something like that's just kind of the space that I kind of like to be in sometimes. So the idea of like, okay, what's next. Yeah. Does not necessarily, Yeah.
Luke:Makes gives me energy, I think, more than it does than it kinda drains me a little bit.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And I I think it was also just, you know, we had talked when we had even brought that to the board and stuff. We were using the language of, like, this probably will be a stop gap to some degree. Yeah.
Cameron:That's what we always kind of imagined it would be.
Luke:Yeah. I think we didn't know how long that stop gap would be, and we're still not sure exactly. Like Yeah. You know, is this is this something that we sit on for a little bit? We kind of maybe get some more behind the scenes things kind of, flowing in a better direction before we tackle again, what physical capacity space is.
Luke:But yeah, I'm kind of, you know, I'm. I generally yeah. I think I'm generally excited about it. Mhmm. You know?
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:Yeah. My feelings about it kinda caught me off guard. Like, because I I everything logically tells me, like, this, you know, this is an exciting thing. It is. It is.
Cameron:It's an exciting thing, but I I was like, oh, yeah. Right.
Luke:It was a big push.
Cameron:We do gotta we do gotta now I I just I didn't expect to have to have this conversation or be thinking about it seven months after Yeah. Doing it the first time. Mhmm. So I was excited about the future. A little nervous about it.
Cameron:Scared. Yeah. Not in like a I don't think in like a, like, sin sinfully fearful way.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:But just like a, you know, what does it mean for my leadership? What does it mean for your leadership? What does it just mean for just going forward? Yeah. Well, a little bit of fear of the unknown.
Luke:Definitely. Yeah. It's it's, Well, because like leading people even through that, the S to change the two services was its own, because it's not just the physical space. It's the, like, emotional leadership of it.
Cameron:It's getting people on board. Mhmm. Getting people on board and getting them to follow and
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:Inspiring them to follow, getting them to see the reasons why we're doing it. And and then making a decision about what we wanna be and who we wanna be as a church going forward
Luke:in
Cameron:terms of, like, number of services or capacity or building size versus program. Like so, excited about it. I think it's great. Love to be a part of what God is doing, and how, like, despite my best efforts, he's growing his church. And that that's the thing that, like, overcomes any bit of fear that there may be Mhmm.
Cameron:About what's next. So Yeah. So, yeah, I thought that that was probably the the addition of another service and all that that entailed and then produce is producing and all of the, I guess, like, the domino effect of that is probably one of the bigger things that I think charted the course for us for the past year.
Luke:Well, you know, what I think is like an interesting decision that, that we ended up making this year that we weren't that we talked about here on the podcast before and we've wrestled with, before, but kind of seems almost counterintuitive to the decision to go to two services was our decision to stop live streaming our services. So we went to two services and we were live streaming our our second service, our 11:00 service, on Facebook and all the places, YouTube. And, we made the decision to pull the plug on that. Not that we're we're still recording our sermons and things like that and putting those out. But we're not doing it live anymore.
Luke:As a kind of like a alternative to being in person. Yep. So, yeah, that was kind of an interesting, like, it makes a lot of sense to us inside, but I would wonder if looking from the outside in, that would seem like a counterintuitive decision. If we're saying we're struggling with capacity and space and we went to two services, but then we decided to cut our livestream.
Cameron:Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if I don't know. Maybe maybe people outside of the the building understand why we did that. Maybe not.
Cameron:I I get the sense that they probably don't because it's just so normal now.
Luke:Well, yeah. You know, it used to be the standard back when I was a kid. Right? You know, was, well, you gotta have a tape ministry.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:Right?
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:If you've been around church long enough, you remember, you know, they would record onto a cassette the sermon, and then they duplicate those cassettes right after service, and people could grab a cassette to keep or to Mhmm. Bring it back each week and relisten or share with a friend a sermon. Later, that was done over into CDs.
Cameron:I have some of the CD recordings of my first sermons.
Luke:So CD recordings.
Cameron:I have a VHS Yeah. Recording of my first service as a pastor.
Luke:Yep. And then it was like, and then I think pre COVID, the standard was you had at least an audio podcast of your sermon. That was like the minimum bar for, like, kind of what you kind of did with your service stuff. And then if you were a, you know, a big church, you, you had, you were live streaming and maybe you did video recording, but then, I think COVID like COVID moved that standard because all of a sudden nobody could meet in person. So all of a sudden churches everywhere bought some sort of video camera and did some sort of live streaming and recording.
Luke:And then the shadow of COVID still looms pretty big in a lot of people's minds. And, you know, like, well, what if we ever get shut down again or locked down and we need to live stream again and the convenience of all of it. So it just moved everything and really, I think, kinda unified a lot of the production of the church in a sense. Yeah. Like, everybody's doing that now.
Cameron:Yeah. Even really small churches. Yeah. You know, you'd see people setting up setting up iPhones or something like that and just live streaming right from their phones. And I think a lot of people thought maybe still think that, you know, I have an opinion or I'm, like, really down on churches who do that, like, look down the nose.
Cameron:Mhmm. But that's not that's got nothing to do with it at all. I just think for who we want to be, who conduit wants to be, and what we want the direction that we want to lead our people, that it's more important for us to encourage physical presence Yep. In the community of faith than it is a, you know, voyeurship.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Or maybe that's maybe too pejorative of a term, viewership. Consumer. Cons yeah. Just Yeah. Just to view it.
Cameron:Right. Just to view the content. And so we decided that not as a punishment to anyone who was just simply viewing
Luke:Right.
Cameron:What we were putting out, but it was us saying, hey, we so strongly believe that the church should be a place where people gather with people. Yeah. Learn to love one another, learn to love the Lord more greatly Mhmm. That we wanna take away all all reasonable opportunities for there to be confusion about what it means to be a part of conduit Yep. Or the church.
Cameron:So I I I still stand by that decision, and I think it was the right decision
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:For us.
Luke:I
Cameron:don't know if there's another pandemic or another situation where everything has to be shut down. And
Luke:I mean, we'll tackle it as as we go.
Cameron:Right. We'll address that or think about that as it comes. But as it stands right now, I think we made the right decision and can stand by that. But that, yeah, that was a pretty big, that was a pretty big thing too.
Luke:Yeah. I so I was interestingly enough, I was reading a book when we were kinda thinking about making that decision. I didn't really end up because it wasn't part of wasn't necessary, but this was just some some of my reading. I was reading a book called Analog Church, which is kind of a just a exploration of what technology's implications are in church.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:I didn't finish the whole thing because this year was kinda marked by a lot of, like, skipping and dipping. I'd pick up a book, I'd read a little bit, and move on to something else. But he the author brings forward these four kind of ideas that were from, someone called, McLuhan McLaughlin. He's not super well known. Well, he's well known now because of because of these four laws of, like, media or technology that he kinda proposed.
Luke:People were kind of looking back at him and saying, wow, he really called something out there. But, he wasn't terribly popular, I think, when he was around. But he had these four questions that you have to ask when it comes to any type of media or technology. Says, what does it enhance, improve, or make possible? What does it push aside or make obsolete?
Luke:What does it retrieve that was previously pushed aside or made obsolete? And then what does it turn into when pushed to an extreme? Mhmm. So those are the questions that you're meant to ask. Like, we could think about these with the phone.
Luke:Right? So what did the phone do? It kind of, made instantaneous connection and communication, like, possible to smartphone. Right? What did it kind of push aside, make obsolete?
Luke:What made pay phones, pagers, like a gazillion things. Right? Ultimately, and then, you know, what does it kind of, retrieve or what is it like? What does it retrieve that previously pushed aside or made obsolete it? You know, in a lot of ways, it retrieves, like, right now, voice messages are coming back and things like that.
Luke:We used to people used to use their answering machines and things like that. But, and then what does it do when it's pushed to its extreme while the cell phone, right, was meant to connect people? But what's the most decry of, like, parents and people all over the place is that the cell phone is a source of? Disconnection. Disconnection.
Luke:Mhmm. Right. Mhmm. And we can do the same kind of questions and thoughts about, you know, what does live streaming do? Well, it makes people able to attend and not be in person.
Luke:And like, it's, it's a, you know, greater connection and stuff, all of that. It, but what does it do when it pushes itself to the extreme? Or what does it make obsolete?
Cameron:Community.
Luke:Right. It, you know
Cameron:At least like face to face community.
Luke:Face to face community. Right. And so now I am more likely to recognize somebody's username than their face.
Cameron:Alright.
Luke:And that that's when it's pushed to an extreme it's extreme. And we we're live streaming is still relatively new in the church world, and we won't know what the long term effects of that are until we've seen a generation or two grow up on, like, what does it mean for someone who's growing up to sometimes go to church and then sometimes go to church on their couch with their family, you know? So, oh, well today we're just running a little behind. We'll just live stream it. And, like, what's that what does that form in a young kid's mind or someone's mind when they're growing up in a church that's even just kind of a hybrid sense like that.
Luke:Right. And how does that impact their relationship with the church in the future? Right. And what does that sacrifice? Yep.
Luke:So that technology always can accomplish really great things, but it also comes with a cost. Yep. And we have to measure the cost. And so
Cameron:Yeah. Yeah. The the world is is always forming us.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And the ways of the world we're we're formed in the ways of the world and by the tools of the world. Yeah. And that technology is such a tool of the world that it has begun to form a whole culture, sometimes even the church culture
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:In a way that well, I would say that, like, our discernment or my discernment of it here is that the is that it was be it's beginning to form a culture of church life and community life in a way that separates us from what was meant to, like, bring us together, universal connectivity, information, convenience, all in one functionality, supercomputer, and the palm of your hand right in the pocket of your pants has actually created a lot of disconnection person to person.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And so felt like the church has a responsibility, to be counterformational.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And, ultimately, the reason why we made that that decision. Yeah.
Luke:So Mhmm.
Cameron:So, yeah, live streaming or the decision to stop live streaming definitely was a big part of what we a decision that we made this year.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And, I think we'll continue to make year for year. We'll see. Like you said, it it will depend on what happens in the world, whether or not we ever revisit that conversation.
Luke:Yeah. I don't think it's we tip we try not to create, like, sacred cows Mhmm. I think is the way we kinda operate here. We're not like, oh, the way we are doing things right now is the only way to do it. And Yeah.
Luke:We try not to, we try not to pigeonhole ourselves there. Because life is adaptable and there could be absolutely a scenario where we're just like, we feel like the right thing right now is to turn a camera back on. Right? And for whatever reason and for whatever period of time.
Cameron:I mean, we're doing it right now.
Luke:Right. We're gonna continue to leverage cameras and media and things like that, but just how we do it is also something that we're gonna. Right. We're maybe not gonna say yes to everything that is available to us.
Cameron:Mhmm. What else from this year?
Luke:As far as, like, leadership decisions we made?
Cameron:Or Yeah. Or just, like, I don't know, reflections, things that were surprising. I'll I'll tell you, like, one of the things that I that surprised me in terms of, like, that I was not expecting, I should say, is Mhmm. Is the work that the food truck has been doing Yeah. And the attention that it's brought to the ministry.
Cameron:Yep. And what that
Luke:not anticipated.
Cameron:No. We didn't anticipate that. We didn't plan that. We know just by experience working in the community that the hunger problem is great in Chautauqua County. So I'm not surprised that it's being utilized a lot, but I am surprised at the larger community or regional attention that that ministry in particular has gotten.
Cameron:Yep. And that is, I think, part and parcel to just the cultural shift or cultural reality of the city that we live in, the region that we live in. Yeah. First being that there is a homelessness crisis problem conversation going on in our community Yep. In particular in the last calendar year, but in the more in a more significant way, the food insecurity problem in Straka County and
Luke:in the
Cameron:region that has kind of pointed to is a is a is a significant reason why Yeah. The food truck's getting utilized so heavily.
Luke:Yeah. I remember you were having a conversation with someone and you were like, we're not, like, experts or, like, when we wouldn't consider ourselves as doing something massively significant to address homelessness and all of this. And they were like, but you're pretty much one of the few that are. And so that by de facto makes your voice and what we're doing important and register. And I think that just speaks to the gap.
Cameron:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I don't think we ever set out to be, a feeding ministry to the homeless.
Luke:No. That wasn't the point.
Cameron:Where we were what we were trying to do.
Luke:Right. Because we do it came out of we do the Thanksgiving giveaway every year. We just did that. I'll hear a little bit ago at Thanksgiving. Whole heart of that has always been in the way you've always talked about it.
Luke:We've always talked about it is, like, this is a meal for those who would like it. Like, we don't ask that anybody demonstrate any level of need where they come with some paperwork or anything like that. Mhmm. We're just like, it's for anyone who wants to take advantage and have a Thanksgiving meal. And there we go.
Luke:Yep. And, you know, obviously that, the people who take care of that, or who take advantage of that, like, often need that or need a little bit of extra help or something like that, or wanna take advantage of that for just to relieve even just some strain on everything that's happening around Thanksgiving. But it's not directed towards homelessness or poverty. It's directed towards people. People.
Luke:Right? That's that's we don't wanna we don't want people to be stigmatized or to be classified or something like that. It's just feeding people with open arms and love and grace. You know? Yeah.
Luke:And so the it was past the this past not 2024, but that would have been There was a group of people who were like, this is fantastic. We have a food truck. We'd love to do more of this kind of thing.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And you kind of made the decision to say, go for it. Mhmm. You know, like, try try to kind of lead by letting go of the reins a little bit and just said, you guys make it happen. And they somehow did.
Cameron:Yeah. They did in real in real significant ways, like, from, like, 50 meals
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:In a week to, you know, three three three and a half, three three hundred and fifty, between three hundred three hundred and four hundred.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Hot meals every week. Big lift. Yeah. It's a big lift. It's a big deal.
Cameron:Financially, it's a big lift just with people.
Luke:Yeah. Because they're they're here Saturday morning Yep. Usually cooking or prepping something.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And then they finish we finish for excuse me, first service down here. And then the kitchen is prepping during second service.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And then after church, they're loading it all up, packaging it up. And then after church, they drive out and they hand out those meals.
Cameron:Distribute it. Yeah. Yeah. So I did not expect that. Yeah.
Cameron:I think it's great.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Obviously, and encouraged about its future. Although, I don't know, there's a little bit of it for me that's like, what is its future? Mhmm. Not that not because I I don't I think I was talking to a group a couple weeks ago about the difference between conduit's desire to meet acute needs Mhmm. And to address systemic problems.
Cameron:Yeah. Those two are connected in a lot of ways. Mhmm. But, I think that the church needs to do both. I think we need to have a mind towards meeting acute needs.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:But we also can have a mind. I think I think we have the right spirit and mindset that we should be the people who have a mind to be like, what are now the systemic issues that are creating the acute needs? Mhmm. Some of them are systemic. Some of them are, not.
Cameron:They're circumstantial.
Luke:Right. Or generational. Or generational or cultural.
Cameron:Yeah. Or we don't, you know, don't always know.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:But, we should can and should be trying to address both
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:I think. So I think the food truck very clearly is always just gonna be one mechanism to meet the acute need.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:You know, that particular sliver of ministry is never gonna be the thing that turns the tide systemically.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:But that doesn't mean that it's not important. And so but there's also, like, a what what is is is there a next step for the food truck Mhmm. Or the food truck ministry, or does it remain like it is and just continue to function in the way that it does? Yeah. I've often thought about the food truck's nice because it's kinda like this rolling signpost of, hey.
Cameron:Here we are. Yep. But I've often wondered if something brick and mortar
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Would be, a good partner Yeah. To that, and would love to do that. I would love I would love to have I I would love to be able to say, well, 02/25 maybe is the year of a
Luke:Like a ministry center?
Cameron:Community outreach, community ministry center. Mhmm. Yeah. I could get really fired up about that Yeah. Really quickly.
Cameron:Yeah. And maybe maybe that's the case and but but I think that's, like, a ministry center that it gives a built in center to address not just the acute, but now some of the systemic. Yeah. What's going on in our city? Mhmm.
Cameron:What's going on with the people? Yeah. What is the what is the gap? How can we begin to construct the bridge?
Luke:Yeah. Yeah. Space is like, like, I think that's maybe a theme that's running through our conversation here is how important spaces to what you're trying to accomplish and what you're doing. Like, because like the way our church is set up, it's set up for a very specific function. It's set up Sunday.
Luke:Sunday mornings. Right? We've got children's classrooms with children's things and decorations in them and things like that. And we've made some additions and chains and shifts to our facility, but we're also recognizing that we can't ask our facility here to do too many more things because
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:Like, it's just limited to it.
Cameron:Doesn't have anything else to give.
Luke:No. Right. We're we're like, we can we can slap some, more metaphorical paint on some things and kind of clean it up here a little bit and, fine tune it. But Like,
Cameron:as an example, for those of you who are maybe not familiar with Conduit or have never been here or whatever, we we we currently have a shipping container Yeah. Out in our parking lot that we're utilizing as storage for an event that we have coming up
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:Simply because we don't have any space
Luke:Yeah. To store things. Doing a toy drive, toy giveaway, and people were bringing toys. And we did that last year, and it was just like this moving pile of
Cameron:Toys.
Luke:Toys. Not Yeah. And It's overwhelming. Overwhelming. And it started collecting in one room, and then they were like, well, it won't fit in this room.
Luke:And then they moved it to a different room, and they're like, well, it won't fit in that room. So they moved it to another room, and it just, and it was, disruptive to, children's ministry and everything. And so we're just like, how do we avoid that this year? Yeah.
Cameron:So So, yeah, that have you I I think I've mentioned this book title to you before. It was one that I had to read in, grad school. It's called theology of the built environment.
Luke:No. But that sounds fascinating.
Cameron:By I don't remember his first name, but the author's last name is Gorringe, g o r r I n g e, I think. And it was it does center around, like, the the premise of the the premise of the whole work is, like, how does the built environment how do our buildings and our spaces how are they affected by our theology and vice versa? How do our how do our spaces affect our theology? How does our theology affect our spaces? Yeah.
Cameron:And I I remember, I I think it was like a it was like a contemporary culture and theology class Yeah. That I, that we we were made to read it in. But I remember that being like a concept at that time that I had never really considered, like, how physical spaces affect Yeah. Theological beliefs or or at least they represent or reflect theological beliefs. Yep.
Cameron:But then as you as you move past the surprise of like, oh, how did I not think of that? Then it becomes clear that most of like, you think of big churches, big gothic churches
Luke:Mhmm. Or
Cameron:just churches in general. Yeah. Like, conduit is really conduit's building is really reflective of some of our theological values, some of our core values.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:Large Catholic churches.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Tons of stained glass, big tall ceilings.
Luke:Meant to draw you looking upward. Pipe organs. Right. Like,
Cameron:draw you into the majesty and the glory and the awe and the wonder. Mhmm.
Luke:Have you ever like, our our church has the ceiling design of a boat. Have you ever thought about the theological implications of that?
Cameron:No. Uh-uh. No. Not I haven't. But you're right.
Cameron:It's like an upside down boat.
Luke:Upside down boat, which was really popular, in church design.
Cameron:In the
Luke:And so Mhmm. It's a kind of a nod to the most famous boat in the bible, and that was ark. Right? It's this idea of, like, the church being a vehicle of salvation into the world. And, yeah, that's kind of that's was reflective of.
Luke:You know?
Cameron:But it's also, like, that whole thing is if we go back to the first conversation that we were having about how many services we can have and how many services we wanna have and how big do we wanna get or whatever
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:That whole that whole conversation and then the architecture of the building go hand in hand. Yeah. We we say this a lot. People some some people it it wasn't really a major con I wouldn't say that it was a major conversation, but there were a lot of people who, when we went to sue two services, were like, well, why don't we just build on?
Luke:Right. Get a big loan, do a Right. Capital campaign.
Cameron:Right. And if you were if you've ever been in Conduit's Sanctuary, you know, it's very distinctive in terms of its shape and structure and whatever. Yep. And so if we were to build on to that sanctuary, we would have to just make it longer Yeah. Unless we were willing to completely tear the arches down Right.
Cameron:And make it wider because those arches are specifically built for that space. Yes. And we couldn't you couldn't change the architecture of that room by going wider. You would just have to go longer. Right.
Luke:Or you just would have a gazillion pillar pillars in your
Cameron:Right.
Luke:Yeah. It wouldn't make any sense.
Cameron:And so it would just be like one big long tunnel.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And with the way that our even with the way that our sanctuary is set up and our our, like, property Mhmm. We would maybe be able to add 25, 30 feet.
Luke:Which is a a silly amount to add for the amount of money it
Cameron:would cost. Amount of money that it would cost because we you don't wanna match the architecture. Right? And it would reef it would re so, like, what is the what is the value that we have? Well, a value that we have is, like, I don't wanna get I don't want our church to be tied up with a lot of debt.
Cameron:Yeah. Because then we can't do the things in ministry freely
Luke:Right.
Cameron:That we wanna do because we're saddled with this building. For what? Right. So we can put 50 more people in one service? Like, it just seems to me to be a values rub.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:That's quite obvious. Yep. But it only becomes obvious when you have a non consumeristic view of the community of the church.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:When the when the view is like, oh, no. Like, the mark of success is bigger buildings, more attendance
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:One central location, pack as many people, that's what equals Yeah. Faithfulness or success or whatever. Yeah. When you have that, then it's like a yeah. Why wouldn't we spend $3,000,000 to add 50 seats?
Cameron:That just seems logical.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:That's not our value here.
Luke:Yeah. Well and even we had discussions over, like, you know, because we've tossed just about every, option around at some point. We've talked about, you know, what would a different space look like? And, you know, you were asking, I think, a really pertinent question of, like, does our space which, like, our space this is an old church building. That's what it is.
Luke:If you come into it and look at it, you're like, oh, this is like a classic traditional church, with Sunday school rooms and, like, pews Mhmm. And looks very open and bright and, very natural toned and all of that. But you would find that our service is generally contemporary if we're not a Baptist church. Mhmm. I don't mean that derogatory, but, like, that seems to be the shorthand a lot of people use for kind of a We're not old timey.
Luke:We're not old timey. Right?
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:And so, but we're also not we don't have smoke machines. We don't have colored lights. Mhmm. We're not, we're not trying to push the edge of our production limit. You know?
Luke:We're like simplicity, want the lights on. We talk about that as like a we generally want things to be kind of corporate and open and bright. And what is that's part of our culture. It's part of our values and the way we structure things and how we do things. I, and I think some of this kind of, it's funny how you can tell like a church, doesn't always like, doesn't always think about these things explicitly.
Luke:So I'm not saying that every time I go into a church and I see they've done something architecturally or design wise that they've necessarily thought all the way through those implications. But, like, I remember I was at a church. You know, they were, it looked like it was a church. I don't even remember what church it was, but it looked like they had, made the transition from hymns to using projector screens. But they had only bought one projector screen, and it only fit in one place, and that was in front of the cross.
Luke:Good luck. Yeah. Good luck. So the way they compromised, right, was that when they sang, the projector screen would and come down, and then they would project onto it. And then as soon as the worship was over, come back up and you could see the cross.
Luke:But then if the pastor used sermon notes, it would come right. So the projector screen was constantly going up and down in the service because they were keenly aware of the trade off of what technological and design decision they had made that by only buying one projector and having it o only positioned in the front, they covered up the cross that was designed and placed there Mhmm. A hundred years ago. Mhmm. Whatever, whenever the church building was built.
Luke:Or one of the things that I've seen, in I can think of two different churches. I went into a church. They had their old communion table. You know, do this in remembrance of me carved on the front. And it was in the foyer, and it had all the pamphlets and stuff just stacked on it.
Luke:It was just like a information table now. I was like, oh, interesting. Yeah. You know, and I came in, and it was obviously had, like, a Hayes machine and stuff like that. I was like, this church is and I asked somebody who's been there.
Luke:I said, so has this church gone through, like, a big transition? And they were like, yeah. And I was like, okay. And, like, I could see, you know, or there was one church I visited happened to be on like, I think Memorial day. And they had, they had their, you know, their communion table up front.
Cameron:Please don't tell me they put an American flag on it.
Luke:Oh, they put a seal of every single military branch on it. So like Marine Corps, army, Navy, air force, like all, all placed on the, do this in remembrance of me table. And I, yeah, it was, I had feelings.
Cameron:The abomination that causes desolation.
Luke:Yeah. A little bit. You know, and there was, you know, somebody said
Cameron:Like when frigging Domitian or Nero brought a pig into the Jewish temple.
Luke:Yeah. And, you know, somebody made some, some, you know, kind of half baked theological comment of, like, thank you. Just like, you know, just like Jesus's death gives us freedom. We thank all those who and we remember all those who have served in our armed forces who give us freedom. And we're not like a, like, we wanna show respect to those who serve and veterans and things like that.
Luke:We have honor and respect for that, but, like, you ain't Jesus. Sorry. Mhmm.
Cameron:It's not the same thing.
Luke:We're not gonna we're not gonna do that. Mhmm. So it's a very different type of freedom. National national nationalism is something we've talked about here before. Yeah.
Luke:Those are all architectural design decisions that reflect
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:A theology or a thought, whether they've done that intentionally or not. Sometimes they're more aware of it than than others. But Mhmm. Mhmm.
Cameron:Yeah. Yeah. So the like, the just the thought of going of, like, picking conduit up and moving it to another building Mhmm. Or location, I think would be I think I recognize that it's probably well, I don't know. I'm I'm not gonna I wouldn't stand in this very hard, but it's just I'm kinda, like, just reflecting out loud about it right now.
Cameron:I don't know that it would I don't know that it's gonna be the right move
Luke:Right.
Cameron:For us. Mhmm. I think that given all that we've just said, we recognize how much of our cultural values here, our core values here are tied up in the type of building that we have Yep. And who we are and what we wanna be. And if we were to just pick up and move to, say, a a warehouse type of space
Luke:A big black box Yep.
Cameron:And build it out, I'm not sure. I would be really curious as to how that would change our identity. Yeah. And part of me is curious about that, but also part of me is like it if we are living into the proper identity in the place we are at now Mhmm. Then it shouldn't really change our identity when we simply move locations.
Cameron:If we've done a good enough job leading our people and their understanding of what the church is Yeah. Then moving physical locations shouldn't radically shouldn't radically change our identity.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:The reality is that it likely would.
Luke:Yeah. So We'd have to be, like because, like, it so, like, Craig Rochelle, who we mentioned from time to time, bigchurchlife.church. Like his philosophy is, is when you start a church or make a new church campus, make a big box and have one big room that you can use as a conference room. Like, you can use like, essentially, you make it kind of blank so that you can flex it. You know, set up for Sunday service, tear down, and it's something else.
Luke:Right now, we have our sanctuary, and our sanctuary is our sanctuary. Like, you could not host, like, a big banquet up there, could not like, it functions as a sanctuary. Can't really do anything else with it. And, you know, his philosophy, which is in line of their values, is being missional and flexible and not, not being overtied to, like, the space and things like that. And that's all great.
Luke:I'm not bashing that, but that's but if we were to get a big black box and doesn't have any windows in it and it's kinda dark, well, you gotta put lights up. Yeah. And you've got to do something to create Mhmm. Sense of ambiance and things like that. And so it does rely a little bit more on your design and your production.
Luke:And, because you're missing the staple architecture of a church Yep. That some people would be so familiar with.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:I think if we move somewhere, we'd have to be, you know, it would have to be into another old church building, empty church building or something like that. Yeah. Or if we did have to do something more creative than that, we'd almost have to try and make it, have it bring some sort of the design language of a church into it. Mhmm. And not just adopt kind of a blank box kind of
Cameron:Right. Yeah.
Luke:Way. Because I think even about the story of our of this church building, it's it's an older building, which we're having discussions about with some regularity of, like, as we just encounter the Realities of old olding and own owning an old structure. Right. Yeah. We gotta fix things, update things from time to time.
Luke:And, you know, but it's not it's not sitting empty. It's got a history to it and it's got a purpose and it's being cared for and being made into something new that represents our community and things like that. And I think that's the story that we wanna tell in Jamestown and in Chautauqua County is like, not just kind of bulldoze over something. And say, oh, we're just this new shiny thing apart from what's come before, but be honoring of, the history and the culture and be embedded here and, be part of renovating and, and it not being a shiny new box Mhmm. Necessarily.
Luke:But I think that's the physical way we care for our space here, I think reflects ultimately our desire in the community.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:Mhmm. I
Cameron:don't know how we got on that one.
Luke:Yeah. I don't know either. We just started talking about space, I think, is where we
Cameron:Yeah. We got there anyway. So I think there's some other things, you know, like, I didn't do a whole lot of reading this year. Yeah. Kinda disappointed in that.
Cameron:Mhmm. And then reflecting back on it now, I'm like, man, I coulda done more.
Luke:Yeah. Me too.
Cameron:I did read some good things. I read Dark Clouds Deep Mercy.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:I read Good and Angry. I read Untapped. Mhmm. I'm reading now Calling on the Name of the Lord, which is a biblical theology of prayer. But I don't I don't think I I I read some nonfiction books just like in my, you know, relaxing time, spare time, evenings.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:But,
Luke:You mean fiction? Or
Cameron:Or I'm sorry. Yes. Fiction books.
Luke:You read fiction books. Yeah. I read some I read a good amount of fiction this year too.
Cameron:Yeah. Well, part of it's, like, we spend so much of our we spend so much of our time reading for work. Yeah. Researching Yep. That when I am not at work, I want to I'm and now I wanna read.
Cameron:I kinda wanna read somewhat mindlessly or toward with, like, an entertainment value. Yeah. So
Luke:Commentaries are not always that interesting.
Cameron:They're almost never interesting. There's, like, that they're not made to be interesting.
Luke:They're pretty dry. Yeah. And, you know, it's, I I I'm the thing the bigger thing for me is is that if I read something that's nonfiction and kind of ministry or work related, I'm just I'm not gonna be able to go to sleep in the evening. If I end my evening with reading, nonfiction that's geared towards ministry or something like that, I find myself just getting really, like, charged and energized. And then I'm just like The gears are going.
Luke:My gears are going. My thoughts, everything is going, and I'm just like, I can't sleep. I can't sleep.
Cameron:Yeah. So,
Luke:what out of those list of books you did read though? Like, if you had to pick one that would be on, like, on the top of your recommended, what would it be and why?
Cameron:For, like, a layperson Mhmm. I would probably say dark clouds deep mercy.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:It was just about, like, the redeeming power and presence of God's mercy in the midst of dark seasons of life or difficult circumstances. Yeah. Mark Vogel, I think, wrote that. That was good. That was recommended to me by my counselor.
Cameron:That was good. If you're a church person, like a leader in a church, or you just want, like, a better bead on church leadership culture and and both its development, but also it's, like, maybe some insight into how churches kind of like why churches are the way they are sometimes.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:I would say untapped, short book, easy read
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Written by a semi local guy to us here in Jamestown. He Mhmm. Pastors in Erie, Derek Sanford, pastor at Grace Church. Really good book. Mhmm.
Cameron:So those would be, I guess, out of the very few books that I did read, those would be the two that I would recommend.
Luke:Yeah. What about you? I What'd you read this year? Man. Well, I read the whole Harry Potter series.
Luke:Mhmm. Just as, like, I needed I think earlier this fall, I needed something really fun and easy to go through, and that was the, that was the thing I landed on.
Cameron:Okay. Did you read it, or did you listened to
Luke:it? I listened to it. Okay. That was how I was able to get through it.
Cameron:Just just just clarify.
Luke:Just clarify.
Cameron:I read my books, Luke.
Luke:Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Audible counts in my book. Yeah. But books nonfiction books that I read, I finished and I read Unwanted by Jay Stringer, Deals with Valton.
Luke:It's a it's a really good one. Particularly if, like, this isn't like a good general recommendation, but, I mean, maybe it is because sexual brokenness is so pervasive that it might as well be general at times. But if you want if you or a loved one deals with sexual unwanted sexual behavior, so something that they're doing sexually that is they have a desire to not do, but they struggle to continue not doing it or they struggle with, with that. So whether that's pornography or anything like that. Mhmm.
Luke:Unwanted by Jay Stringer is a it's a great book on it. It's a little clinical, at times, but it's, I think it's on the top of my recommended list when it comes to kind of beginning to untangle, some of that. And it addresses sexual brokenness in a way that is not common to, maybe a lot of the popular Christian books, on the topic. So, I have a real heart for, because I that was in conjunction with a guide training that I went through. I'm, went through some training in order to be a certified guide to, administer that course.
Luke:And I'm still in prayerful expectation over what that learning and that training means in my ministry here. So I have a heart for it. I it's just kind of a where where and what does that look like Mhmm. For me. So, but, yeah, that's a that's a great book.
Luke:That was a great resource that I dove and went through pretty deeply this year. I don't remember if we ended up talking about, I think we may have talked a little bit about practicing the way, when it first came out way back in the beginning of the year. But practicing the way by John Mark Comer was a great read. That's probably the book that, like, I've given out the most this year, recommended the most to our leaders and different people of, like, this is a great starting place for following Jesus, but following Jesus in a way that's not just focused on, like, showing up on Sunday morning. Mhmm.
Luke:And it's, yeah, that was a great book. I'm almost done. I'm maybe like one or two more chapters left in an older book by John Mark Comer. It's not that old, but, the ruthless elimination of hurry, right. Finishing that book and very convicting book.
Luke:Mhmm. He has a lot to do with, you know, just eliminating hurry and that dreaded word of busyness in our lives. So that's a and even the la latter half of the book deals a lot with consumerism.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And I'm just like, oh, boy. Mhmm. Feeling some conviction around that and just being the nature of Christmas and all of this.
Cameron:You're right.
Luke:Yeah. Mhmm. Other book that I'm still reading, slowly, but I've not given too much time was, the unseen realms by Michael Heisler, which has got to do with theology of spiritual beings and things like that. Angels, demons, and have nots. And so it's an interesting book.
Luke:I would recommend that to ministry leaders. Mhmm. It's not something I think I can recommend to, recommend to Lay simply because I just I don't know about some of his conclusions. I'm just kind of undecided as to it's kind of a research book for me. Mhmm.
Luke:So I think those were my my big reads, I think. I'm reading like a productivity book right now. That's just like, I think it's the, it's maybe the best book that I've ever read on, on productivity. I'm pulling up the title of it real quick. It's, manage your day to day, build your routine, find your focus, and sharpen your creative mind.
Luke:It's a compilation book of different people who are kind of like in the
Cameron:In that space.
Luke:In that space of
Cameron:Productivity and efficiency space.
Luke:Mhmm. And each chapter's, like, maybe four or five pages long. Mhmm. Real easy to read. But I find that, like, if you get one book that's, like, you know, like, all about, like, structuring your day or something like that, it tends to be just too much.
Luke:It's, you know, it's this big whole comprehensive system. This is like one chapter, you know, like one of the big takeaways from one of the chapters is, I've heard the stat, but I've never heard it explained like this. So If you're taking an IQ test, they did this experiment, right. Had people take IQ tests. Some had their phones next to them and some didn't their phone was outside the room and it's not having your phone go off or act but just the simple presence of your phone in the room had people score lower on their IQ tests.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And the chapter explained like the missing piece to that. I was like, I don't understand how, like, a phone just sitting there makes your IQ score lower. And they were saying, well, it's not just the presence. It's the mental exercise that you're having to do to resist the looking at it. It's the potentiality of it.
Luke:It's a distraction. Even if you're not on your phone, you're still exercising a level of willpower and self control to not look at it. And that takes effort that is distracting you from doing other things. And I was like, oh, like and so that's impacted the way that I've started to interact with my phone recently. I got this like device where I it's called a brick.
Luke:Brick it. Mhmm. And I brick it. I tap it to this brick. It locks and it turns off everything except for my text messages and phone calls and my maps.
Luke:How does it how do you like it? I like it a lot, because it's a physical key. Mhmm. So, like, I'll I've been doing this particularly in my evening and morning routine. So I'll have my brick, it's a magnet, sits on my fridge.
Luke:Mhmm. Tap it. I go upstairs to my bedroom. And then at night, I can't be doing anything. Can't be scrolling on Instagram.
Luke:I can't be like, booking on Amazon. I can't be doing anything. So I'm either reading or going to bed or having a conversation with my wife, which are great. I'd rather be doing those things anyways. And then when I get up in the morning, I can't check my email first thing.
Luke:Yep. Can't scroll on social media. Mhmm. So, like, if I wanna do those things, well, I gotta get up. Like, you know, I can if I'm gonna go all the way down to the fridge, I'm not going all all back up to bed.
Luke:So, it's functioning great for that. The software is a little buggy right now. So, like, I'm having a hard time. You can set up different types of locks so that, like, it leaves certain apps unlocked. And my experience right now is it's a little buggy, and I think that might be because of the soft all the software updates with Apple.
Luke:And the company says they're working on it. But the base functionality of it Yeah. Works great in the principle of it.
Cameron:Yeah. I've considered buying it
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:Myself. So that's why I ask.
Luke:Yeah. I like it. But software is a little buggy right now. So but other than that, I've had a great experience with it as far as a concept. So anyways, that's what I've read and Mhmm.
Luke:In large scope. Yeah.
Cameron:Well, I don't know that that was helpful. Maybe it was entertaining. I don't know. But that was kind of a potpourri of, various things that had were impactful for the year for us, for half the year for us. That's about all we did.
Cameron:It was half a year. Yeah. A little bit over half a year worth of episodes. So, what we'll be doing is, taking a break now. I think we'll take a break for the Christmas we took a break for the Christmas season.
Luke:Yeah. So we won't this will be after Christmas. And
Cameron:Yeah. And then we'll we'll re up in Jan. 0 Mhmm. With, something.
Luke:Well, I think our Something. Something. I think our hopes are to align our podcast here with some of the broader conversations we're gonna be having throughout the year as a church.
Cameron:Yeah. So So thanks for tuning in. Always as always, please, like wherever you're where like this episode or this podcast, wherever you're listening to it. Subscribe to it. It'd be great.
Cameron:Gonna share it with a friend here or there. Give us a rating. Make a comment if you're watching on YouTube. Any and all of those things would be really great for us. Really encouraging.
Cameron:As always, thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next section.
