The Face of God: What does it mean to seek it?
Welcome to the Uncut podcast.
Cameron:I'm pastor Cameron.
Luke:And this is the Uncut podcast.
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Luke:Summer?
Cameron:Summer.
Luke:I do have a couple designs in the backlog that I'm slowly working on. They're not quite there yet. Yeah. It's hard to get church merch to not look like church merch.
Cameron:Am I sensing t shirts in the future?
Luke:T shirts in the future, for sure. There's also, like, this didn't we didn't push this one super hard because it came out kinda after the hoodies, but there are, like, kid hoodies on, up there now.
Cameron:Could see that. Mhmm.
Luke:Little fun life if I have a child. God.
Cameron:Mhmm. How about some trucker hats?
Luke:We can do trucker hats, I think.
Cameron:We need some trucker hats, I think.
Luke:Hey. Church great again. Yeah.
Cameron:Yes. That that's it. So let it be written. It's Oh, damn it. Can you imagine?
Cameron:We that it would be an interesting social experiment just to walk around, go to pastor prayer, wear it here around here. Right. Red hat, white lettering that says make church great again. Mhmm. Because most people wouldn't read it.
Luke:No. They would assume.
Cameron:They would see the first word, make something great again. Right. They wouldn't we shouldn't do it.
Luke:Right. It would spark a lot of conversate. What do you mean by that?
Cameron:Yeah. Glad you asked. Yeah. Mhmm. Well, we're, we're back into what we hope is a regular rhythm for you
Luke:Yep.
Cameron:For us too. It gives us an opportunity to talk through, maybe dissect some of the things that we're talking about during the week
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:As well as, go a little bit deeper with some of the things we're preaching on.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:So we, do a little series here on seeking God's face Yeah. And what, what we mean when we say that and why it's important and how it changes the way that we show up Yeah. In the world and changes the way that we show up at church. Mhmm. So, let's, let's jump right in
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:And ask that question. What if I say seeking God's face, what is it exactly that I mean? And, you know, this can always be a problem when we read the Bible understanding or, like, wrestling with metaphorical language, because God is not just a face.
Luke:Right. Yeah. He he he's not, shoot. He's not Zorgon from Mighty Morphin Power Rangers.
Cameron:Or the Wizard of Oz. Or The Wizard of Oz.
Luke:It's not The Mighty Wizard of Oz. Yeah. It's maybe the bigger cultural reference.
Cameron:Yeah. The Hyper Right. Yeah. Yeah. No one no one knows who Zorgon is.
Luke:Someone out there, I thought.
Cameron:Well, actually, I knew. But, but, yeah, Wizard of Oz. Think Wizard of Oz. Think Big Face. Right.
Cameron:And so there's a little bit even in the there's a little bit even in the the language that needs, not unraveled, but just an awareness that when we speak of God, we speak in kind of like this anthropomorphic language, which means we ascribe human bodily traits to God. Yeah. Which in some ways is appropriate. Jesus had a body. Jesus was a man.
Cameron:You know? But we say things like seeking God's face or God's hand or God's mighty arm right arm, you know, or out of God's mouth. So we we attribute anthropomorphic or, like, having to do with man things about God that, can sometimes be that that are just ways in which biblical authors sought to describe Right. What they were Yeah. Experiencing in their interaction with him.
Luke:Yeah. But it's interesting because, like, I think this is kind of like the, I was gonna say middle school. Maybe I'll say it's the high school way of attacking the authority of scripture. Cause occasionally somebody will pick out metaphorical language out of the Bible.
Cameron:Right.
Luke:Like there are passages that talk about, I can even I know there's one specifically towards the end of Job where it talks about God, like, storing lightning and hail in his warehouses, and they come out and then he, like, throws those bolts and Yeah. Stuff like that. And they're just like, well, look, We know lightning bolts. We know where they come from, and we know where hail comes from. Like, god isn't throwing lightning.
Luke:Mhmm. The bible's fault. You know? Yep. But that's the the point of the bible wasn't to communicate that there was a literal storehouse.
Cameron:It's not a sign it's not a science textbook. Science. No. It wasn't meant to, like it wasn't meant to relay scientific facts or stand up against the scientific method in the way in which we think produces truth.
Luke:Right. Because none of those things existed when it was written.
Cameron:Right. So the Bible is more poetry than it is science book. Right. And if we don't if we don't have an awareness of that, we can run up against metaphorical language that leaves us feeling a little bit out of the loop in terms of who God is. So when we see things like, you know, like we where we've been preaching from Psalm 24, happen to have it right here.
Cameron:Such as the generation of those who seek him, who seek your face, oh, God of Jacob. Yeah. The the language there is not, seeking the wizard of Oz behind the curtain. But when biblical writers talked about seeking the face of God, they were using this metaphorical language to kind of rep to to represent his his presence. Or I read something this morning, even that seeking his face was meant to, describe his the Lord's full attention.
Cameron:Yeah. So it's like think about I I kinda think about it, like, as a parent when you're talking to one of your kids and they're like you can tell that they're like, squirrel. Squirrel. You know? Like, they're just not there.
Cameron:And, like, you you with gentleness, of course. Always gentleness, of course. You hold their face in between your hands and you get down right in front of them. And they're like, you know, like, do I have your full attention in this moment? Right?
Cameron:And so that's kind of like what the that's the that's the push. That's the thrust. That's the idea that's communicated when the psalmist is saying, Lord, we seek your face. Lord, we like, Lord, grab our faces between your hands so that we can look nowhere else but at you. Like, do not steady our faces, fix our eyes, lock our gaze so that we have we cannot turn aside.
Cameron:Yeah. We cannot turn our attention attention aside.
Luke:Is that rooted in is that it's like a way of talking about it? Was that, like, rooted in the language somehow, or is the way, like, they just kind of just
Cameron:I'm not sure. I don't really know. I'm not, I don't really know the word etymology there. That would be really interesting to know. I don't I can't I mean, to be honest with you, I can say that I haven't even really studied the Hebrew of it, and I don't really know that it would make much of a difference because I don't know Hebrew and I never studied it before.
Cameron:Yeah. We're Greek bros. Yep. Yeah. It was Hebrew or Greek in, in under both undergrad and seminary, and I was like, I'm I'm a Greek bro.
Cameron:But, anyway, had to ask ask one of your friends. Yeah. Yep. Actually, does do that because that would be a great, I think, that would be a great study there. But, you know, like the, so there is, like, a, a, kinda like, a corollary.
Cameron:Like, we talked a little bit about it in, like, the general anthropomorph anthroporm Promorphic. Language about God, talking about his body parts, you know, where the like, they're seeking his hand, seeking the the hand of God. We seek the face, so we're seeking, like, to have full attention and full devote full devoted attention to God's, and I guess we should take this even further. It's not just full attention to God. It's full attention to his nature and to his character.
Cameron:So it's not like a full attention to what he's doing or a full attention to, maybe the fruit of a life lived in him. It's full attention on him in his person. So his nature, his character, his holiness, like his covenant. I would say even his covenant promises, those come out of his nature. His love.
Cameron:And that is kind of contrasted with the seeking of God's hand, which is completely biblical, legitimate, like, pursuit of our lives. Like, we we you we can seek God's hand. In fact, most like, a lot of a lot of our prayer is a is a petition to see the hand of God in the world.
Luke:So if we're seeking his hand, you were you were saying seeking his face is particular attention to his character, his attributes himself. If we're seeking his hand, then by like contrast, we're seeking what he's doing, his activity.
Cameron:His like help or his provision. Help us, Lord. Come and like get your hands dirty in this mess that we are in. Lord, we need this from you. Provide it for us.
Cameron:That's the seeking of the hand, which I think I I think it it it it doesn't take a a huge leap to say that that's probably the way in which we seek God in prayer most.
Luke:Right. I I I call those prayers grocery list prayers. Oh. And and maybe I need to find a different way to say it, but, like because I don't wanna be overly derogatory. I don't want people to feel like they can't pray.
Luke:Dear Lord, please help my aunt or, you know, or help me with this. And I've got this going on. Like, there, like, there's nothing particularly wrong with that. It's just that if that's the only thing you're doing, you're missing a segment of prayer and a way of seeking the Lord that I think, like, that I wanna call people out of a little bit. Yeah.
Luke:And so when I use that language of, like, it's a grocery list prayer, you immediately get what I'm saying. Because you're like, oh, yeah, the list. Yep. Everyone's
Cameron:got it.
Luke:Like, you know, but, like, there's this other component that is less talked about in the circles that we brought in.
Cameron:Yeah. Yeah. And that's well, and, again, that's not to say that the that the prayers seeking God's hand are not
Luke:They're great.
Cameron:They're it's it's it's biblical. Like, we, you know, and and so we we don't wanna avoid those. I think I think I don't know. I I think I would say that prayer to seek God's hand Mhmm. Comes most faithfully out of prayer that starts with seeking his face.
Cameron:Right. Because it starts in seeking God's face is a is a pursuit of intimacy rather than blessing. And then and so we would we would it could be like it could be said that it's out of, like, the overflow of our intimacy with the lord that we pray in such a way that he shows up. You know, like, he, he sees, he recognizes, he hears the voice of his child. Alright?
Cameron:The and he shows up on their behalf. So, obviously, in Psalm 24, which we've been preaching on the last, you know, four weeks or so, we see that phrase, those who seek your face, oh God of Jacob. Psalm 27, verse eight is, another one that, you know, put we often hear people, use. My heart says of you, seek his face. Your face, oh lord, I will seek.
Cameron:That's again a psalm of David. David, like, just a man who sought after God, sought after his face. There an another one and I've preached on this before. In fact, I've preached on it. It wasn't too long ago that we, preached on it, in second Chronicles.
Cameron:Where am I going? Do you even know your Bible, Cameron?
Luke:You said second Chronicles.
Cameron:Second Chronicles seven fourteen. If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven. I will forgive their sin, and I will hear their land. Now my eyes will be this is another, like, ascribe me to God, you know, qualities and characteristics of man. Now my eyes will be opened and my ears attentive to the prayers offered in this place.
Cameron:I have chosen and consecrated this temple so that the so that my name may be there forever. My eyes and heart will be there forever. Oh my gosh. Would the lord that the lord would say that about this place, That my his eyes would be open and his ears attentive to the prayers offered in this place. He has chosen this place and consecrated it so that his name may be there forever.
Cameron:His eyes and his heart will always be there. Lord, make it so. Mhmm.
Luke:Man, I like I I feel like it's a shame that I've never really sat underneath that passage because of the way that it is so often used in context. That I just almost out of hand, just dismiss it anytime someone starts quoting it. Mhmm. Which is like a shame. Mhmm.
Luke:Yeah. But, like, that's a that's a fantastic call to repentance and prayer. Mhmm.
Cameron:It is it is the pathway to national revival or large scare large scale revival. I think when do we preach it? We preached it during the at the end of the series, talking point series.
Luke:Mhmm. I feel like I might have been out of town that Sunday Mhmm. For one reason or another.
Cameron:I felt it was a powerful Sunday, because it what it what what I tried to do there with that message was to say that our the Christian response to the ills of the world, to the ever, like growing secularism and hedonism and individualism of the world. Yeah. All the isms, like, they see we all see it. We know it. We see decline.
Cameron:We see the end of any sort of moralism or search for God even in, even in, culture. John Tyson use has been using a phrase lately where he says that the culture is doing a reverse exorcism. Our modern culture is doing a reverse exorcism where before the church would go into the world in the in the authority, in the in the spirit of Christ driving out evil. Right? And now the culture has flipped so that the the culture now is is any mention of God, any vestige of God, any attempt at, a biblical moralism or a biblical ethic is being forced out.
Cameron:You're not allowed to be here. That has no authority here. That has no power here. And and we have we have seen in that reverse exorcism, the fruit of it in our culture, the fruit of it in our cities, the fruit of it in our kids, the fruit of it in generations that are becoming further and further and further and further away from the Lord, deconstructing their faith, having no faith whatsoever, Christians having not led anyone to the Lord, maybe their whole walk with God. And so right.
Cameron:Like the culture's just like, get out of here, God. And and so what so then the question is, will we see that as a as the church? It's the one who who who we do follow Jesus and we do desire God and we do want God to be here and come and revive us and, like, retake ground from the enemy, both in our hearts and in the world. Like, what do we do? Well, it's all their fault.
Cameron:They just need to get right. They need to they need to turn from their sin. It's always even in our hearts, it's usually like someone else's. They gotta fix that over there where the call of God here in Chronicles was to the people of God. It wasn't to a world that was turning in darkness.
Cameron:It was like, if you wanna, if you want to see healing and you want to see power and you want to see people return to me, if my people who are called by my name, what do they need to do? If they will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven. I will forgive their sin, and I will hear their land. I think it's important it would be important for us to ask the question of ourselves, what sin does do the people of God need to repent from in order to welcome in the revival and renewing and refreshing that the Lord wants to bring? So and seeking his face is a part of that.
Cameron:Lord, we we we we need you. It's it's you that are gonna turn is gonna turn the tide. It's not I'm gonna be a manufacturing of our own, you know, like, will or mind. Lord, it's you. It's you alone, that we need.
Luke:A %. Mhmm. That's I think, you know, as you were talking about that idea of reverse exorcism, I was immediately, I was thinking, me and my wife got to travel to England last month and was a fun, super fun trip seeing a friend get married. But probably the highlight of the whole trip for me was the two days we spent in Oxford. Mhmm.
Luke:And, you know, one of the oldest universities in the world and was originally like a theology place. It was a place of, you know, it was a seminary, a place for training and studying and, had a very rich and theological history, places where Prince, where CS Lewis and Tolkien taught and, like, all of this great history and, religious history. And it was really, really sad when we did the tour, and we're being toured around by one of the current students. And how almost apologetic the tour guide student was over the religious history of the place. Like, kind of trying to, like, skirt around it, explain it away.
Luke:Like, I mean, like, e even if you're not a Christian, like, it's the, like, it's the heritage.
Cameron:It's the reality. It's the reality of the place.
Luke:Like, don't try like like, almost like apologizing. Like, I know this is like, I'm just like, it's Oxford. Like, there's a rich theological history here. Even if you don't agree with Christianity, you have to see its cultural importance that it's had over so much time. But it was it was just it's interesting because I was just like, it to be in a place where the buildings are screaming, god exists, like, the architecture is designed in such a way.
Luke:The mottos, everything, the statues, all proclaiming god exists, but every single student I ran across was, like, trying to just cover their faces to what was just around
Cameron:Push it out. Push it out.
Luke:Mhmm. It was it was really interesting.
Cameron:Mhmm. Yeah. Go ahead. It's heavy. I mean, it's heavy.
Cameron:You know?
Luke:It's really heavy. I don't know. I have, like, I have, like, a couple questions, and then I think we'll probably, wrap up this episode. Maybe just maybe one or two and then continue the conversation. This is kind of maybe going back.
Luke:I think this is maybe, we kind of answered this question, but maybe just to put, make it explicit for those who maybe are asking it when we're saying seeking God's face or his like, you know, I actually, I'm, I think, I think we'll kind of leave that for later. Let's just stick with that question that you kind of asked. Do you have any sense of what the things are that we corporately, you know, as a church, maybe not, maybe not here, or maybe just broadly, like you can kind of decide the scope, need to repent up and humble ourselves from it. Like, did you did you have any sense in your in your thinking through that?
Cameron:Yeah. That's, understandably a heavy question. Partly, I think, because I'm a pastor of the church. And so it's like that repentance starts with me. You know?
Cameron:It needs to start with me. It needs to start with a recognition that, you know, perhaps there are things that I have perhaps there are things or ways in which I have led even unintentionally that have, turned aside our focus from the Lord himself, you know? And so I think, it's a it's so incredibly easy in it's so incredibly easy to be, to live and work and be super involved in church and not know God. Like, so we are, like, so familiar with God that we don't know him. Like, we don't know him in intimacy.
Cameron:It's like, it's all it's like and I feel like that's written all in the pages of scripture. Like, the more familiar the people of God got with God, like this like, they felt it felt he felt familiar. The things of him felt familiar. The further away they got from actually the pursuit of his person and who he was in holiness. Think about think even think about the whole town of Nazareth, the birthplace of Jesus.
Cameron:Who this carpenter's son, I know his brothers and his sister. I know his mom. Isn't it the son of the carpenter, Joseph? You know? And right.
Cameron:And they rejected him. And and what does the scripture say? It says he could not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith. They were so familiar with Jesus that they could not worship him as Messiah. And so there is a over familiarity with the with God as an ethical construct that seeks to modify our behavior to make us nice people, that we don't see the God who truly is the one that wants to call us out of just like an ethical life into a life of worship of the holy, of devotion, of confession, of, of surrender and sacrifice for ourselves.
Cameron:So I think that there is I think, you know, probably the thing we need to repent of is an over familiarity with him to the detriment of the recognition of his holiness and his his presence and maybe his desire to be here. I don't think that God I don't think that God needs to be convinced to, like, grab our full attention. We don't we don't need to, like, argue with him about whether or not he should or wants to. Because he yes. Yes.
Luke:Grounded in that relationship of God is kind, compassionate. He's a father. He is in relationship with us. He has given
Cameron:Right. And he and and he has promised that when we seek him, like, you will seek me and you will find me when you seek me with all of your heart.
Luke:You're trying me.
Cameron:There it is. Yeah. So, I think repenting for a repenting of an over familiarity, that has caused us to lose our wonder.
Luke:Mhmm. You know, as you're talking about, like, over familiarity, I think the thing that was coming in my mind was, I think when I was I was preaching on Elijah this past summer. I did some diving into kind of the, the idols that Israel was like worshiping and tempted to worship throughout the whole old Testament. And one of the things that I kind of like learned from that study was that it wasn't so much that the Israelites were just wholesale abandoning God. It's that they were adding to him the worship of Asherah and Baal and things like that.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:There
Luke:was even a text that is I was just really upsetting. But, like, still, like, thousands of year later, it's an upsetting text. But it's a text where, they were describing Asherah as having, like, a relationship with god. Mhmm. God of Israel.
Luke:Mhmm. Like, it wasn't that they were just like Yeah. Oh, we're going to ignore god completely. Can we add these other gods into the mix and and create this, like, syncretism? And, you know, so often when, you know, the, there was a good king in Judah or Israel, they would like, one of the common refrains is they were like, and they destroyed many idols and he did many good things, but they did not destroy the
Cameron:high High places.
Luke:One the high places, like, almost always Stayed. Stayed. I think there was maybe one king who maybe did
Cameron:Josiah. Josiah. Mhmm.
Luke:But almost even the good kings Mhmm. Almost always neglected this one thing, and it was the high places Mhmm. And which were places of idol worship. And I I think too, it's an o I think you're right. It's an over familiarity with God, but I think it's also this over familiarity with things that have crept in that aren't supposed.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Idolatry.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:Yeah. Yeah. So
Luke:Yeah. Was that a good stopping point for us for this episode?
Cameron:Yeah. I think so. Let's, we'll we'll pick it up next time if this if this conversation interests you. If you want more of this, You know, we're gonna just continue on kind of in our conversation about seeking God's face, what we mean when we say that, how to do it, what it requires, what it what it means and doesn't mean, and how might it practically, orient and change our life in the church. So, thanks for listening,
