God’s presence: What Happens When God is in the Room?
Welcome to the.
Cameron:Pastor Cameron.
Luke:Welcome back. We're in, the last episode kinda kicked off. We have a couple of episodes here talking about seeking God. Mhmm. Kind of last, last time we talked a lot about, you know, what does it mean to seek God's face versus his hands?
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And we've kinda walked through, like, what is what do we really mean by that seeking his character, not just what he does. Yep. Or just or another way of saying that is not even just seeking his blessings, but seeking him himself. Himself. And then we kinda started to talk about, like, things that we seek other than God.
Luke:Right. We were talking about, like, I idolatry and what that could kind of look like and be. And so, kind of alongside of that, you know, there's a lot of different language we can kind of use here. But I feel like, you know, seeking God's face, is a very biblical way of talking about it. I think the more colloquial or like common way that we hear talked about in church and day to day is like seeking his presence.
Luke:Right. And, you know, it's a different it's a different type of language, but, like, you know, it I think that's I think we gotta clarify what we mean, though, with that. Like, what is it that we mean when we say, like
Cameron:Seek his presence.
Luke:His presence. Like like, we want God to fear.
Cameron:God. God here. Yeah. Yep.
Luke:And and, like, kind of what is that like? I think the the shift in the language because it, while it means the same thing, essentially as seeking God's face, it does shift it into physical physicality for us.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:Like, I think when we're talking about seeking God's face, we're kind of in this like, it's easy to stay in this kind of like,
Cameron:like up there, up there. Like, like we talked about it as like the wizard of Oz face. You know, he's like, he's not he's other, which he is, you know, he's separate or holy, which he is, but then there are moments, sometimes extended moments where he kind of like breaks through the atmosphere. Yeah. And it no longer is about like a God there.
Cameron:It's now about, like, God Right. Here. And I think the beautiful witness of scripture is that God does both, that he is transcendent, and that he is imminent. So he's both. He he is the he is the transcendent God.
Cameron:He is holy. He is other. He is, there is no one like him. He his throne is in heaven. Mhmm.
Cameron:He's also born. But he came, Emmanuel, God with us, And he's imminent here. And it feels like imminence goes even beyond tangible presence. That the level of imminence of god that god's that god desired for his presence was indwelling presence.
Luke:Yeah. He tabernacled among us Yeah. And in us.
Cameron:That's what like, that's what I'm saying. It's like his holy spirit is in us. So you wanna talk about, like, the difference between the otherness and holiness of God and the indwelling spirit or presence of God that he is both. Like, there's both, like, magnificent otherness about him, and there's also, like, a beautiful presence Yeah. For him or with him.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:I think that when we talk about God's presence, wanting God's presence, we we need to make, distinctions between those two. Like, when we say, lord, we want your presence. We want you here. We should be aware or cognizant of what we're asking with our mouths, what type of presence we want, but also what we're asking with our actions and our hearts, the type of presence that we want. Because there's the I think most most of the time, we have a we say we want God's presence.
Cameron:We are talking about, like, we just wanna recognize, Lord, that you are omnipresent, that you are always here.
Luke:Man, when I think about just the different type of like Christianity that I've been like a part of at different points, like different tribes with inside of Christianity and theological houses and stuff. But I remember I don't remember who. I don't remember when, but I remember hearing somebody being like, oh, I can't stand that song because it's like, we want you here or whatever, some song like that. Don't they know that God's already here? Like, that's a silly song to sing.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:That, like, we want your presence, Lord. Like Yeah. God's here. He's omnipresent. That's a silly song to sing.
Cameron:Right. Mhmm. Right. But So but that's speaking to That's speaking to the issue. It's like so, like, the the the question, you know, I I one of the one of the ways of course, with the exception of the incarnation where god's presence was actually on Earth, like, I think one of the one of the places in scripture where I it is most clear to me that God's presence be presence became imminent is in the Exodus.
Cameron:Like, the whole book of Exodus is just full with, like, God's slamming glory and presence all throughout it. And so you could take if you take that modern, like, oh, God is always here. Well, yeah, God was always there with the Israelite people while they were in bondage in Egypt. Was God somehow not there? No.
Cameron:He absolutely was there. But there is a decided difference between him being there in the way he showed up in their captivity and in the way that he showed up in their freedom. Yeah.
Luke:Well, there's this fantastic line, which it doesn't really come across very well in our English, but there's this moment early on in Exodus. I think it's, I don't remember if it's set in the narration in the preamble of Exodus or if it's only said when Moses is having his is Moses' meeting God at the burning bush, but God says, like, I have remembered my people. Mhmm. Right? Like I've remembered my covenant with with your people.
Luke:And the reason it doesn't come across very well in English is because for us remembering means like, oh, I forgot. Right. Did God like forget that Israel existed? No. But what that means like more practically is he's like, I have, I have remembered and I am now coming into fulfill.
Luke:Yeah. What I have promised.
Cameron:I'm about, it's like a I'm showing up.
Luke:I'm showing up. Exactly. Yeah. And the the thing is is that, you know, the Exodus is predicted in Genesis. Like, there's the record of, I think it's told to Joseph that the people would become eventually captives
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:In Egypt and that they would be delivered at some
Cameron:point. Mhmm.
Luke:So it wasn't a, you know, Exodus was part of the story, you know, but there but that beautiful line of God saying, like, I remembered, and now I'm coming. Mhmm. Mhmm. You know? So so I
Cameron:was like, I'm taken by that, so I wanna wanna find it. But
Luke:Well, this tells you how odd cut it is because I didn't plan I didn't think about that passage or look it up ahead of time.
Cameron:Yeah. Yeah. It might be just like an issue with my translation, but, like, when Moses at the burning bush, you know, the lord said, I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering. So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land.
Cameron:I mean, if that's not even if that line in and of itself is enough of an example of, like, there's the omnipresence and then there's the manifest presence or the tangible presence. So I came across this, chart. It's not mine. I didn't put it together, but that kind of describes the difference between the omnipresence or the tangible or manifest presence. So, like, the omnipresence of God is biblical, but so is the tangible presence of God.
Cameron:Right? See that example. The omnipresence of God is real, meaning he is he is indeed present everywhere. Right? That's that's real both in omnipresence and tangible presence.
Cameron:It's true to God's nature that he is omnipresent and tangible. This is where we begin to diverge, though, because then there's this question of, like, well, omnipresence means that god is everywhere, almost in everything, like a pantheism or a panentheism.
Luke:Was about to say as I We should probably clarify because, like like, new ageism loves to say.
Cameron:God is everything. God is everything. Yeah. God is not everything. That the tangible presence of God is not that God is there's, like, this general sense of God being everywhere.
Cameron:Understanding the tangible presence of God is that God is not everywhere. God is here. Mhmm. Like, here. Omnipresence can sometimes be generally theoretical.
Cameron:Because there's a philosophically theoretical nature to it. But in with a tangible presence of God, it's not just like a tangent it's not like a theoretical type of thing. It's transformational. Like, his presence brings transformation Yeah. In the moment.
Cameron:Omnipresence of God available to all people. Don't need to be a follower of God to sit underneath the reality of the omnipresence of God. But to experience the tangible presence of God, it's normally for God's people, for those who are called by his name, for those whom he is calling to be his people or to show up on behalf of him. Right? Tangible presence of God is normally for his people.
Cameron:That means the universe that means the omnipresence of God is a universal fact. The tangible presence of God is more selective. It doesn't show up the same way to all people. The omnipresence of God requires no prayer. Yeah.
Cameron:It it just is. Who he is. It's who he is. He is everywhere. But normally the tangible presence of God requires prayer.
Cameron:I have heard my people. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers. I'm concerned about their suffering, so I've come down. Crying out, is like the the Hebrew way or the Old Testament biblical way of stating prayer. It's the way in which we see prayer, occur in the, Old Testament the most, and it's normally associated with the people crying out to God to fulfill his covenant promises.
Cameron:And so I have heard my people crying out, I'm coming down, and I'm gonna give them a land. The covenant promise that was given to Abraham. So prayer is required normally for tangible the tangible presence of God to exist. The omnipresence of God is generally impersonal, but the tangible presence of God is highly personal. Highly personal.
Cameron:We feel him here. Like, we're overwhelmed with his, like, in the room ness. Omnipresence of God is generally abstract. Tangible presence of God is very specific. The omnipresence of God does not require obedience usually.
Cameron:But the tangible presence of God, obedience is ruthlessly required to be because we're in his presence. We're in the presence of we're in the presence of holiness. And so we I think we must make a distinction even in our prayer of what we mean when we say, Lord, we want your presence. And I have tried, I think, in my in my prayer for our congregation and the church here to ensure that I'm always asking for the right type of priests. Yeah.
Cameron:Always I I try to like, lord, we want your present we want your manifest presence here in this place. We want you to show up. Lord, we wanna see your face. Lord, we know you're here always, lord. It's not enough for us.
Cameron:I want you here in power and in glory and in holiness. I want you to be, like, I want I want it to I I want it to be selective. I want it to be prayer required. I want it to be highly personal. I want it to be specific.
Cameron:I want obedience to be required. When we pray that, though, it comes with some it's not inconsequential. There are things that there are consequences for that presence, and the consequences usually come to our hearts. What happens? What what happens either before or during?
Cameron:The tangible presence of god coming. And I think a lot has been a lot could be said and has been said about that. I was listening to a podcast the other day, and they were talking about, like, defining the key factors of when God's presence comes. They were talking about, like, the context of revival.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:And, like, if you were to analyze all the revivals where God's presence has come in a really manifested powerful way, what would be the like, what's the nugget? What's the thing that brought the presence? And, what you find is that, there have been those, like, major outpouring of God's presence and spirit across just about every Christian faith tradition. So you would have, like, Anglicans, like high church, Church of England. Right?
Cameron:Baptists, charismatics, reformed people, highly reformed people, Catholics even. And they each probably have their own, like, well, why did why why did God's presence come while we were seeking holiness? Or why did God's presence come? Well, we were all, like, we we we were repenting. Or why did why did, God's presence come?
Cameron:Because we have a high view of God's word. Right? Why did God's presence come? Because we're the Catholic church, the defenders and deposit with the deposit of faith is with us. And and everyone, like, kinda has their own, like, explanation for why it came.
Cameron:And then, like, you see, you look across this you look across this the board, and you're like, well, what's the common denominator? There's not there's not really a theological common denominator other than God came to a place where he was wanted. God came to a place into a people that wanted him there and prepared their hearts for his arrival. So and then did not did not cower under the under the, I will say this, under the affliction of his presence. Because there's there's some affliction of his presence that comes.
Cameron:Like, when the Lord's presence comes powerfully, there is a necessary, and uncontrollable response of repentance. Confession and repentance because there has to be. Like, if you think about, like, God you just think think think about the the way that our lives, our our sin profiles would change if the omnipresence of God was always the manifest presence of God. Like, it wouldn't be about, like,
Luke:eve I I think
Cameron:you can still choose to sin in the presence of God. I mean, Satan and the fallen angels are a perfect example. Right? But, but there there's this sense of, like, when God is in the room per se, that we are undone in our sin and, like, all of our sin is magnified by the light of his glory and presence. And the only only proper response in that moment is, Lord, I am a man of unclean lips, like, laid bare.
Luke:For everything else. It's kind of like everything else loses loses its, like, shine Mhmm. Temptation. Mhmm. Things kinda just fade into the background.
Cameron:Yep. Yep. Loses its focus, loses its, like, prominence, its importance, its everything.
Luke:To kind of backtrack a little bit, I was kind of thinking about because, like, what would be, like, the examples of like, again, the Bible where God's omnipresence is obviously at work, but then his manifest, like the compare and contrast. And what came to my mind was, Esther. Esther is an interesting book of the
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:Of the old testament because
Cameron:Doesn't mention God, really.
Luke:Mention God.
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:But he's obviously at work
Cameron:Yep.
Luke:Throughout the whole book. And it that it it's a it's a really interesting and then you've got like, probably like the prototypical, like God's manifest presence would be
Cameron:like the burning bush. Yep.
Luke:You know, Moses is like, he's talking to a burning bush. He's taking his sandals off and, like, the bush has not been consumed and, like, God's presence is specific, personal. I'm like Perfect. And so, like, yeah, there's obviously there is this different different ways in which God shows up and works through all of them. And I think when you were talking about, God shows up to a place where he's wanted.
Luke:I've said this quote a bunch of times, I think by now. And I used it re just recently in a sermon I preached, but like, the way it was put is just always kinda stuck with me. In John Piper's book, God is the gospel, he early on in the book, he makes this point. He's like, nobody is going to get into heaven who is only casually concerned that God also happens to be
Cameron:there. Mhmm.
Luke:Like and that's true. Like, the way that we for me, that hit a light bulb was, like, man, so often the way we talk about the gospel, we talk about heaven and we talk about God and salvation is like, oh, well, you gotta get saved so you can go to heaven and have paradise and avoid hell. And, when you talk about it that way, you're not, you're not, you're not talking to people about God. You're talking about like Place. Place, an avoidance of a thing.
Luke:You're not inviting people into a relationship. And if that's all you're concerned about is, like, I wanna go to the to the good place when I die in bad place.
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:Then, like, do you actually then?
Cameron:Like Yeah. It's like Like it's like heaven is not a place.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:I mean, it is.
Luke:But it's But But why is it heaven? Is it heaven because it's heaven, or is it heaven because that's where God is. And you're not gonna show up and you're gonna be just like, oh, yeah. God's over there. Yeah.
Cameron:So Me. Shoot. I forgot. I Yeah.
Luke:Uh-huh. Right.
Cameron:Yep.
Luke:Right. You know, or the Simpsons. There's a Simpsons episode where, like, I think, Bart and Homer become Catholic. And then, the rest of the family stay Protestant and, like, they go to heaven and, like, Bart and Homer go to Catholic heaven, which is like, you want fund in Protestant heaven and something like that. Like, it's just ridiculous, but that's kind of the way we to talk about it, you know?
Luke:But that that's not the point. That's not the point of the gospel. That's not what so salvation is is not this intangible thing that we're given.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:It's a relationship, a covenant that we're invited into.
Cameron:Yeah. It's God himself.
Luke:It's God himself. Yep. God is the gift Mhmm.
Cameron:That we're given. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. So one of our questions kind of, like, to discuss was how do we know when God is present?
Cameron:Right. And the we we kind of touched on some of those some of those topics, but, like, I think we know when God is present when we cannot stand our own sin and must confess, repent. I think we know that God is present when the only thing that we can do is worship. Mhmm. Like, it just becomes the it becomes the, the hunger of our soul.
Cameron:It becomes like the the thing that we must do. Like, God is present in a place when, we know that God is present in a place when there can, like, well, where where worship is happening. He inhabits the praises of his people is what the word says. And I think we know that God is present when we see lives that are being transformed. It's kind of similar to that quote you shared from Piper that no one who is no one in heaven is gonna be casually concerned that God's presence is going, to be there is in a similar way, like, no one in the presence of God will remain the same.
Cameron:Like, they will be changed. Like, there will be transformation. That's why we pray for the presence of God to come. We we will we will sit under the affliction of confession and repentance because it is like in his presence that transfer we are transformed. That's why but we can I I I maybe I feel a little check-in my spirit here that we can even we that can even become, that can even become sort of a, a false idol of God's presence?
Cameron:Is, Lord, we want you here because we want to be transformed. So it becomes now about something that we want out of the encounter rather than just we want you here because we want you here.
Luke:This was a lesson I, read practically, when I was I was involved in a ministry that was I don't know if they would if we could even call it a ministry because it was so unofficial. But it was, you know, group of young people, with a few dedicated adults who, you know, wanted to worship, wanted to seek God, wanted to do discipleship. And, like, God was showing up, started to show up in some really cool ways, was drawing people to him. Kids who just were like, not interested in God would show up and, they would come back a week later saying like, God has been pushing on me all week to come back here. And I haven't really talked to anybody from from that group in a long time because it kinda fell apart.
Luke:And I don't know how they would all make sense of what happened and what didn't happen. But my sense that I got from it was we made this subtle shift where we were more excited about the dynamic worship and what was happening when God was showing up and the emotions surrounding all of it and how cool this was and where this might lead us and what we might do. Maybe we'll become a band, you know, like all this stuff. And as soon as that shift happened, it stopped. Like, the like, it started to become more about, like, disunity came, and, like and I'm not saying that, like, I was impervious of it at this time.
Luke:Like, I was 22, 20 three or something like that when this was, when I was involved in this. And so, but it was like a, it was a really afterwards, it was really clear to me that we had stopped worshiping God and we had started worshiping worship
Cameron:at some point. Mhmm.
Luke:And, like, it's a fax and how it felt and what it looked like.
Cameron:Yep.
Luke:And that's, like, seems really silly to say, like, you worship to worship, but I'm like, that's what happened.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And it was so it was such a subtle shift, but it it affected everything.
Cameron:That's the the first question from our the last episode that we recorded is what are some of the things that we seek as substitutes for God's presence? Yeah. You know, that could be one of them. So alright. Well, if you enjoyed this conversation or feel like you want more of this conversation, you can, tune in for the next episode.
Cameron:I think we're gonna try and continue it on here. Talked in our last episode as well about that, about this topic in particular, the presence of God, the face of God, what does it mean to be in his presence. So, we don't have all the answers. We're not, I'm not an expert in, revival history or anything like that. I have a I have a I feel like I'm I have a new birth passion for it.
Cameron:But, we wanna seek his face via people who pursue his presence. Thanks for listening, and we'll catch you in the next one.
