Is the most important thing church growth?

Luke: 00:05

Welcome to the uncut podcast. I'm pastor Luke. I am pastor Cameron. And this is the uncut podcast where we have honest, uncut conversations about faith, life, and ministry. Welcome back.

Cameron: 00:21

Welcome back. Man, I am I feel like I am living the lap of luxury right now. Yeah? Sitting back in my chair. Just the microphone's right here.

Luke: 00:32

It's like Yep. For our listeners, we got boom stands for our microphones so we don't have to lean forward over to table

Cameron: 00:41

So anymore. Man, first world problems, but it is so nice. This is comfortable. I can do this.

Luke: 00:48

Leveled up.

Cameron: 00:49

We have leveled up.

Luke: 00:52

So previously, last two episodes, we've kind of having this discussion around, like, seeking God's presence. It's where we've kind of been talking about what it means to seek his face, his presence, wanting to just experience God, not just his, like, overarching omnipresence always present, but his tangible presence with us. And just seeing, like, what does that kind of mean for us? What does that mean theologically? And what does that mean?

Luke: 01:29

And this episode is kind of a, is a really practical exploration of that in kind of the philosophy of our how we're doing ministry as a church. But also by the time everyone's seeing this episode, I would say that a lot of people have at least heard that we're switching back to one service.

Cameron: 01:52

One service from two. Yeah.

Luke: 01:53

From two services. And so that's kind of the the dual purpose of this is to kind of connect the theology that we're kind of reflecting on with the practical discussion of just that decision, I I guess. So Yep. Yeah. Which it's not very often that I think,

Cameron: 02:17

you

Luke: 02:17

know, we spent a lot of time even on this podcast last year, about this time last year, discussing what it would mean to go to two services.

Cameron: 02:24

And why we needed to.

Luke: 02:25

Why we needed to. Mhmm. It was really fun. It was exciting. Mhmm.

Luke: 02:31

And then we even had some, I think, some follow ups up up episodes where we talked about how it was going, and we had some questions from our podcast listeners who were kinda asking how that was affecting us. And, and so here we are less than a year technically, but almost up to a year of having do doing two services, and we're, like, we're going back to Hawaii.

Cameron: 02:55

Future.

Luke: 02:55

Back to the future. Okay. Scotty McFlurry. Marty McFly. So, yeah, Cam, I guess, like, where do you kinda wanna start in that question?

Luke: 03:08

I mean, maybe do we just start with, like, why? Or

Cameron: 03:10

Yeah. I think there's a number of different ways that you could we could I I guess, as you were talking, I was just thinking about this. Like, the irony of the decision to go from two services to one service is that we are more in need of two services now than we were before we went to two services. Right. Because in the two service model, our average attendance has grown.

Cameron: 03:37

Mhmm. Now you I think there's good reason to say that we've made more space so more people come. Yep. It's kinda like the the, like, what the statistics tell us what will happen. And maybe if we go down to one back to one service, our numbers will come back down.

Cameron: 03:56

It's okay. But the the the the reality behind the numbers is that it's not we're not making this decision based off of, like, oh, it just didn't. We we we no longer needed it. We still do need two services. And when we made the announcement to the church, the other yeah.

Cameron: 04:19

I I

Luke: 04:19

It was just this past Sunday.

Cameron: 04:20

Right? This past Sunday. I I did say that. Right? Yeah.

Cameron: 04:23

I was I was clear that we still needed two services.

Luke: 04:26

I think so. Yeah.

Cameron: 04:27

Because we do, from from the number standpoint. And until until we can figure out a kind of a better model for us that is in line with our core values. This is a conversation I wanna have with you. Mhmm. Whether we have it off the microphones or on the microphones, we might as well have it on the microphones.

Cameron: 04:42

Yeah. Kind of like, let's just kind of pin this question up, on the proverbial bulletin board and say, what did we re what did we discover? What core values did we discover in this decision or in this process? Mhmm. And, because I was

Luke: 05:02

Good question.

Cameron: 05:03

Yeah. Because what I was saying because what I was thinking about it the other day, I was like, okay. I don't think that going to two services was a mistake. I think it was the right decision. I think we did I think we did we approached it with due diligence.

Luke: 05:18

Mhmm.

Cameron: 05:18

We brought people in on the conversation. We prayed about it. We exercised wisdom. I think we made a good decision there. Yeah.

Cameron: 05:25

And I but I also think that God was really good and kind to us in allowing us to learn some lessons about who we want who we are Mhmm. And who we wanna be through that process. And we now we've come to learn those lessons. We couldn't have learned them the other way. True.

Cameron: 05:41

We had to learn them this way. Now we have the lessons. And so he's like, okay. Now now it's time to take what you learned in that season, and let's move into the next one.

Luke: 05:50

Mhmm.

Cameron: 05:52

But so to ask the question, like, what are the core values that we discovered from that whole process? And and the and and so now we take those and we say, how do we let those be? How do we, how are we ensuring that we're employing those core values into future decisions Yeah. About worship spaces, worship times Yep. Types of worship.

Luke: 06:25

Mhmm.

Cameron: 06:25

And so maybe we can kinda come back to that conversation here in just a few minutes. Yeah. But, yeah, the the the kind of the explanation or the or the gist of it really is that, man, we the two services were really, really successful in accomplishing the thing that we hoped that they would accomplish, which was for us to make more space for more people.

Luke: 06:54

Yep.

Cameron: 06:55

We we needed more seating capacity. We felt like the Lord wanted more people here than we currently had room for in one service. How do we do that? Well, let's do two services. You, of course, had the idea to do two two services in that in that particular way.

Cameron: 07:14

Mhmm. One upstairs, one downstairs. I think that was a great idea. And and, and by all, by all accounts, it was a, it was just a great success. Yeah.

Cameron: 07:31

By those metrics.

Luke: 07:32

Right.

Cameron: 07:32

By the metrics of needing to make more space so that more people could come. Yep. Checked the box. We did it. Succeeded.

Luke: 07:39

Mhmm.

Cameron: 07:43

As is often the case really in anything in life, you there are always unintended consequences to the decisions you make. Sometimes those consequences are really positive. Sometimes they're really negative. Yep. Sometimes they're net neutral.

Cameron: 07:57

I think this is a really positive consequence. The consequence was we learned something about what's important to us. Mhmm. And we learned something maybe, like, maybe you could say we learned what what it what it is that god is calling or moving us to.

Luke: 08:14

Mhmm.

Cameron: 08:16

With the two service model, the way that we were running it, you know, we had a nine 9AM service and an 11AM service.

Luke: 08:23

Mhmm.

Cameron: 08:23

Pretty much just stacked right back to back. Not a whole lot of buffer space in between those two.

Luke: 08:28

Yep. And

Cameron: 08:28

really what it created in us and in our in the community here was just always kind of like the sense of rush. Yeah. K. Not I don't even wanna say chaos, but it was just like this anxious energy of getting to the next step.

Luke: 08:49

Yeah. Because like the way it was stacked up, like, you know, first service started at nine. Mhmm. That was supposed to run until I think we had set officially, like, 10:20, but we usually ran twenty five.

Cameron: 09:10

Twenty five thirty five thirty twenty five thirty.

Luke: 09:12

Twenty five thirty, something like that.

Cameron: 09:14

How long the preacher went.

Luke: 09:15

Yeah. So it runs to about then. And then the first thing that's supposed to happen after first service that has to do with the the running of second services huddle. It's where we gather all of our volunteers. We check-in and we just talk about the morning a little bit, pray, and then they have that was supposed to start at 10:35.

Cameron: 09:40

Mhmm.

Luke: 09:41

So you had a ten, sometimes even just a five minute buffer between the end of first service and the starting of the first thing to get ready for second service.

Cameron: 09:52

Mhmm.

Luke: 09:53

And by the time huddle was over, which was often, you know, close to a quarter till we then had fifteen minutes for us to like, make a bathroom break, grab something to drink or something to snack on, fix a problem, run upstairs, greet people, start second service. And that's just yours and I schedule. That's not even the juggling that the worship team was having to do in order to, juggle the logistical challenge of doing worship in two different stages or spaces Yep. And having sound checks and making sure everything worked in both places in the morning and only having so much time to do that. So Yeah.

Luke: 10:36

That just there was enough space for everything to happen, but it definitely led to a place of, like, feeling, okay, we gotta make it to this. Yep. And we gotta make it to that. And not feeling like we got to be fully present with people. And then even just our own reflections of, like, getting to the end of second service, and we're both, like, we're both tired.

Cameron: 11:04

Mhmm.

Luke: 11:05

And we're people out, or at least I'm people out because I'm mister introvert. But I don't wanna be people. I don't wanna talk with people. And so that's like what if that's having an effect on us, how's it having an effect on everyone else? Right.

Luke: 11:23

Even those who serve and don't serve.

Cameron: 11:24

Right. And it's it's foolish to assume that the logistics of the schedule do not affect the way that we lead spiritually.

Luke: 11:38

Mhmm.

Cameron: 11:39

Just even in our in our own leadership and what we're what our focus on what our focus is as leaders in that rushed chaotic environment. What I was finding in my own heart Mhmm. Was that I there were moments where I felt like it was important for us to maybe linger in a moment

Luke: 12:07

Mhmm.

Cameron: 12:07

Stay in a song, call people to call people to respond to prayer or respond to the word. Mhmm. Be a little bit more spontaneous in the leadership and the flow of our service. I felt that spiritually

Luke: 12:32

Mhmm.

Cameron: 12:33

But did not feel the freedom to do that responsibly Mhmm. Knowing just like hearing it's the fear of man. Mhmm. Here, like, the fear the fear of man in the back of my head. Now you gotta keep going.

Cameron: 12:51

There's people waiting. There's a schedule to keep. Yep. And as I was praying one week, it was like it was like the week before I went to the conference, something like that. It was before I went, and then I was also praying there.

Cameron: 13:16

And I was praying the prayer that we had been praying quite often at church the last couple months was, lord, we want you here. Mhmm. We we want your tangible presence here. We want your manifest presence here. And I just felt really call really clearly him saying to me, it's like if I showed up, it was almost like a rhetorical question.

Luke: 13:42

Mhmm.

Cameron: 13:42

It was like, if I showed up, would there be room for me? You you've made room for everyone. Haven't really made room for me. Mhmm. And that really struck my heart because, I it was something that I it was something that was already here, but that I hadn't been able to articulate or name until I heard from the Lord on it.

Cameron: 14:14

Mhmm. And then I was like, oh, that's ex that's exactly it's like it's like the scale got pulled off the my eyes. And it was like, yeah. You know, you you're feeling this, like, lurchiness to the morning Mhmm. Because, like, the presence of the Lord is trying to break through and trying to break through and trying to break through, And you are actually the one that's holding the gate closed.

Luke: 14:43

Mhmm.

Cameron: 14:45

Because you're the choreographer of the morning, so to speak. And I, I just resolved in my heart at that time, like, okay, Lord, whatever, whatever we need to do to put the pursuit of your presence as the primary focus for our community.

Luke: 15:08

Mhmm.

Cameron: 15:08

That's what we'll do. Yeah. That's what we're gonna do. And, so, you know, began those conversations maybe with more passion than, maybe with more passion than, discernment to begin with. But, but, you know, begin to bring leaders in on that conversation, you, of course, being primary there and then the staff, there's the staff and the leadership team and whatnot and the congregation this past Sunday and just say, Hey, you know, this is really where I feel we need to be and what we need to do and just kind of throw throw caution to the proverbial wind Yeah.

Cameron: 16:00

And be like, hey. It's what whatever whatever we need to do. Right. Whatever needs to come down. Yeah.

Cameron: 16:09

Whatever whatever jar, you know, like whatever Mary's jar of nard, you know, whatever jar needs to be broken in devotion at the feet of Jesus, whatever is sacred to us Mhmm. And most important to us, let's break it in an act of devotion.

Luke: 16:27

Yeah.

Cameron: 16:29

And, so here we are, going back to one service. I've told two no. Three. I've told three. I don't know if you've told any any, like, ministry people outside of here?

Cameron: 16:46

You told anyone?

Luke: 16:47

I think my my brother Yeah. Who's in ministry in in a different state, you know, as a worship pastor.

Cameron: 16:52

I told I've told three different pastors.

Luke: 16:55

Yeah.

Cameron: 16:56

And all three of them looked at me like I had six heads. Like, what are you talking about? Yeah. What are you doing? All great men.

Cameron: 17:10

Yeah. All love the Lord. All want his presence too. But, but it I don't know. I just, man, I I just feel like it's kind of like it's kind of like what we the verse that we've been, quoting out of, Exodus 33 lately.

Luke: 17:32

Mhmm.

Cameron: 17:34

They were they were they were gonna they were gonna go into the promised land. God was gonna be like, fine. Go take the promised land, take all of the the fertile land, all of the best of it. You know, it's it's your I promised it to you here. I'll give it to you.

Cameron: 17:49

I'm just not going with you.

Luke: 17:51

Mhmm.

Cameron: 17:53

And Moses is like, hold on. Right. If you're not going, don't send us there. Mhmm. And there was just a there's just a part of me that feels like two services, three services, four services is like the church growth model promised land.

Cameron: 18:21

Yeah. Yeah. Because I I don't know I don't think I know really any pastors who would say, yeah. I'm I'm I'm really against my church growing. Yeah.

Cameron: 18:37

Don't want my church to grow. Mhmm. And so it becomes this pursuit. And in that pursuit, there's there's metrics that are established for success, fruitfulness, faithfulness, and it's almost always attached in some way to number of services, Number of people in the room. This is what gets counted.

Cameron: 19:12

What gets counted. Yeah. Yeah. We we track what's important to us.

Luke: 19:16

Mhmm.

Cameron: 19:19

And I have you know, I'm I'm not I don't got, like, forty years in the ministry or anything like that, and my contexts from industry are pretty narrow. You know, I pastored in Sauk County for twenty years. It's this is my like, this is just where I've been. It's my place.

Luke: 19:41

Mhmm.

Cameron: 19:43

I know other ministry contexts are different, and I received that. But I just have this feeling or this sense from what I've seen and what I've experienced that the church has pretty much emptied its wallet to use every strategy, every program, every methodology

Luke: 20:21

Mhmm.

Cameron: 20:21

To just, like, move the needle just like this much. Just. And it feels like all the all it feels like in a large way, all of the all of the modern metrics, programs, methodologies, strategies, streams of thought in church growth

Luke: 20:47

Mhmm.

Cameron: 20:49

Have just left us more, have just left us with a slightly more successful feeling of powerlessness in, like, the darkness and the brokenness and the hopelessness of the world or of Chautauqua County. And I'm like, what why why why am I still fighting this game? Why am I still playing this game like this? Mhmm. Not not against strategy, not against leadership, not against programs.

Cameron: 21:27

All good things need to have them.

Luke: 21:29

Right.

Cameron: 21:31

But when you try to strategize or program your way out of institutional decline in the Western church

Luke: 21:41

Mhmm.

Cameron: 21:42

You're you're just rearranging the deck chairs on the on the Titanic. You know? Yeah. At some point, the church has to be like, we need a move of God.

Luke: 21:55

Mhmm.

Cameron: 21:57

Like, we we no. We need a move of God in in this we need a move of God here. Mhmm. And I I feel like I have just been inspired to believe lately that, what we should be pursuing is not primarily the excellence of our program

Luke: 22:24

Mhmm.

Cameron: 22:25

But should be primarily the devotion of our heart Mhmm. To God.

Luke: 22:33

Yeah. Yeah. Because, like, if we just, like, you know, strip it back and we're just, like even we detach ourselves from the church, like, what what's the point of the church? Like, we could give a bunch of really great answers, but, like, a a really simplistic way is to help people connect with God. Mhmm.

Luke: 22:55

And if we're doing a bunch of things to get people in the door or, into programs, but we're failing to do that one particular thing, helping people actually connect with God? Like, what's the point?

Cameron: 23:12

Right. If you fail on the primary thing, secondary things don't matter. You can do those you can do those as excellent as you can you can be the the very best at the secondary things Right. And fail

Luke: 23:29

Yeah. At the primary thing. And there is there is, like, you know, there is, like, goodness in working to do things, like, well. Absolutely. Totally.

Luke: 23:45

Right? Like Absolutely.

Cameron: 23:46

We don't

Luke: 23:46

want people to listen to this podcast. So we Mhmm. Try and make it look decent. We try and make it sound decent, but there's also a point at which the returns on the investment is gonna would start to, like Mhmm. Really start to just fall off.

Luke: 24:03

And we would lose we would spend be spending so much time in trying to make this, like, the top level thing that the question would be, well, is it still actually serving its purpose for us? Mhmm. And then the same thing goes into how how we do things on Sunday, how we do is finding that line and that integration of excellence, strategy, technology, all of these things to serve the purpose, but not to then become servants of those things. Mhmm. Because there is a certain point at which where we become the system stops serving us and we start serving the system.

Cameron: 24:47

Mhmm.

Luke: 24:48

And that's that's the line that we wanna

Cameron: 24:51

Mhmm.

Luke: 24:51

Try and ride. And I think it's the line that a lot of methodologies in churches have kind of, lost sight of maybe. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Cameron: 25:03

So if we if we go back to that that question of what did this experience reveal is what core values did this experience reveal?

Luke: 25:18

Mhmm.

Cameron: 25:21

What are some of the, like, what are some of the thoughts that you would have about that?

Luke: 25:28

I think, like, when I think about some of the things that this would reveal is that, is that, like, how do I say this? Is that our method, how our method forms us is is as important as the content that we talk about. Mhmm. Like like the content of Sundays

Cameron: 25:54

Mhmm.

Luke: 25:55

Great. Mhmm. Like, we're not necessarily changing the content of what we've what we're doing on Sunday mornings. We're not really changing our preaching, and we didn't really change our preaching or our worship to fit when we went to two services. But the form so, like, the, like, timing of it, the scheduling of it, how much space and freedom and flexibility we had for each of those things all have, like, an impact on how we were being formed as a church and how we were and then how that formation was affecting us as leaders and how that affected the way we led prayer, the way that, volunteers felt like they had to show up.

Luke: 26:40

And, so the the form factor of

Cameron: 26:45

it Yeah.

Luke: 26:46

I think was, like, forming us. It had had an impact on us

Cameron: 26:53

Mhmm.

Luke: 26:53

As a as a community. Mhmm. And that for us, that that is as important to consider as the content of the things that we're doing.

Cameron: 27:03

Mhmm. Yeah. Yep. I I think I are I I think I always knew this, but maybe didn't know it as deeply or was maybe hoping that I could oh, this is gonna sound I don't know how this is gonna sound.

Luke: 27:27

Oh, okay. Well, it's uncut. Great.

Cameron: 27:31

That I could disciple us out of this mindset. But I don't know that I'm I don't know that either I I don't know that I can nor should I. I'm I'm wondering if it should just be like, no. This is just who we are, and that is our the community here, the community here values, one room.

Luke: 27:55

They do.

Cameron: 27:59

Mhmm. Everyone in the same room.

Luke: 28:01

Yeah. That's been like the unanimous resounding point that I've heard from everybody is like, oh, thank God. We're all gonna be in the same room. Yep. Like everyone is excited about that.

Luke: 28:13

Not I think it I think this is the thing that maybe you're commenting on is not for necessarily the same reasons we're excited to be in the same room. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Cameron: 28:28

Yeah. There's well, I don't wanna say that their reasons are necessarily bad. Right. They're just but, yeah, they're different maybe than the reason that we see. And I don't know.

Cameron: 28:44

Like, maybe maybe those reasons are not so different because I like that too.

Luke: 28:48

Mhmm. Like having everyone in the

Cameron: 28:51

same room? Everyone in the same room. I like

Luke: 28:53

Community feeling.

Cameron: 28:54

Community, the energy, the excitement, the like, even from a leadership standpoint Mhmm. It's like I always I don't this might be a little bit of an overstatement, but there were times where I almost felt like I needed to manufacture the passion of communication about something that I communicated passionately once already.

Luke: 29:26

Mhmm.

Cameron: 29:27

You know what I'm saying?

Luke: 29:28

Yeah. Preaching twice Twice is is it's it's own sort of, like

Cameron: 29:33

Right. But that, you know, that is again, that's it's a that's a little bit of an overstatement. I was I've I don't operate from, like, a sense of being disingenuous in the pulpit ever.

Luke: 29:45

Yeah.

Cameron: 29:48

But it there's a sense of, like well, I told one half of our community something once already, and I'm gonna tell the other half of it again. And so I yeah. I do appreciate the kind of the uncut nature of having everyone in one room Mhmm. At one time. But I think that our community here really values that.

Cameron: 30:16

And in some respects, there's a lot of health around that. They wanna be they wanna see everyone. Yep. They at least want the opportunity to know everyone.

Luke: 30:29

Mhmm.

Cameron: 30:30

Whether or not they seize that opportunity to actually know everyone, they at least wanna have a stated, oh, we could know everyone Right. Yeah. In the room. And and I think that that goes beyond being just the value of this church.

Luke: 30:49

Mhmm.

Cameron: 30:50

I think that's a value of this region. Yeah. I really do. I I think I think it's a value of the greater Chautauqua County region.

Luke: 30:59

Mhmm.

Cameron: 30:59

And we, it we would I think we would be wise to consider that going forward. And the reason that I say, you know, in some ways, I have hoped that I could disciple people out of that

Luke: 31:16

Mhmm.

Cameron: 31:17

Is because, you know, you there's only there there there does become a point of diminishing returns with one room. Yes. You know, we're already at the point where for a person to know everyone in one room, the church of our size is gonna be a it would be a miraculous feat for every I don't know everyone. Right. I try, but just there's just too many moving parts, you know?

Cameron: 31:50

Mhmm. And so for us to for us to if we were to continue to grow, let's say we just we picked up and moved to a bigger building

Luke: 32:04

Mhmm.

Cameron: 32:04

And we had seating capacity for 500 now. Mhmm. We might all still be in the same room. Right. But that's not the same type of feeling

Luke: 32:13

Right.

Cameron: 32:14

As a room of 200. Yeah. So the my hope was to say, okay, the goal is never and has never been to know everyone's name.

Luke: 32:30

Right.

Cameron: 32:31

The goal has always been that whoever is here knows the name of Jesus. Yeah. That's the goal. Mhmm. And and that and that if it says anything, if that value leads us to anything, it should lead us to a greater realization of the importance of small micro communities within the community.

Cameron: 32:57

Yeah. Yeah. Smaller groups. Yep. Of people that are your people.

Cameron: 33:02

So when you walk into a room that has 500 people in it or so, you know that there's another there's 15 people that are, like, your people. Yep. Yeah. And so I still think that we will need to do we will need to do significant work to disciple people towards that Yeah. Reality that one room is a good value to have, but but we need to understand why we like that.

Luke: 33:37

Right.

Cameron: 33:38

And then we need to understand the limitations of that value. Mhmm. And, also, what will we what what will we be sacrificing or saying no to Mhmm. If we're not willing to explore that value in a critical way?

Luke: 33:56

Yeah. Because it's I think when we're when we're saying, like, you know, wanting to know everyone in a room, I think the reason why you both you and I are cautious of that is because we we know the dark side of that. Mhmm. Because I've been to churches. I've I've walked into a church, walked into many churches, where everyone looked at me and nobody said hi to me.

Luke: 34:23

Mhmm. Who's that? Mhmm. Don't know him. Mhmm.

Luke: 34:27

Right? Mhmm. Or I've been I I did a, my senior year, I had, like, a cultural dynamics of congregational ministry class.

Cameron: 34:40

Yeah. I would

Luke: 34:40

say. It was interesting. I like it. But I had to do, like, a sociological study on this church. Mhmm.

Luke: 34:46

And the church considered itself to be very, very welcoming. Mhmm. But then when I talked with people who were new newer to the community or people who had managed to hang around long enough to become part of the community, they all said, yeah. It was really hard to become welcomed into this church.

Cameron: 35:06

Mhmm. Yep.

Luke: 35:09

And but everybody else experiences it as welcoming, but they've already all been there.

Cameron: 35:14

They've broken through They've broken through that barrier was

Luke: 35:17

to people. Yeah. And so when I think that's ultimately what you and I, I think, are are guarding against when when we talk about the goal isn't to know everyone in the room is because sometimes when that social nature of the church, of the community can turn insular of just like, okay. Well, we've got I've got my people, and this is enough, and we don't really need to worry about anybody who's outside the door right now.

Cameron: 35:46

Mhmm.

Luke: 35:47

And and that's, I think, the the thing that you and I are both guarding against. But at the same time, it the having a community, being known, sharing, life together is all absolutely % a value of Christian community and church, and you should do that. I don't think it's great that the extreme of, you know, the church that is able to get so many people through the door, but every single person is just a seat, and you don't know anybody. Mhmm. Because I've been to that church too.

Cameron: 36:25

Mhmm.

Luke: 36:25

Where, like, yeah, nobody noticed that I

Cameron: 36:28

was there because Or when I was gone.

Luke: 36:31

Or when I was gone. Like

Cameron: 36:33

Yeah.

Luke: 36:33

There was nothing to be welcomed into because everybody was just filling in to watch something Yep. And then scooting out. Yeah. And so, like, that wasn't a community.

Cameron: 36:43

Right. Which is that that's like a value that I we

Luke: 36:46

Right.

Cameron: 36:46

We will that that's the that's the light side of this value. There are shadow sides to this value, but that is the light side of the this value is creating a community where you can be known. Mhmm. You're truly known Right. And truly cared for, truly loved.

Cameron: 37:04

And I think sometimes people are a little bit optimistic about the size of a community where a person can be fully known. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

Luke: 37:15

Yeah. I know exactly what you're saying.

Cameron: 37:16

Yeah. Like, oh, we have 260 people. Of course, everyone can be fully known. No. It's not.

Cameron: 37:22

It's very unlikely. Very unlikely that in a community our size

Luke: 37:27

People max out at meaningful contacts at about a 50.

Cameron: 37:32

Right. Right. Which is why Conduit has two pastors. Right. Yep.

Cameron: 37:37

It's one of the one of the reasons we have two pastors. Yeah. There's another value that I haven't that I'm I'm not quite sure how to put language to it yet, so I'm just gonna maybe talk around it

Luke: 37:50

k.

Cameron: 37:51

And see if maybe you can resonate with it. It's somewhat connected to that one about community, but it's like it's about valuing depth and width over

Luke: 38:10

height. Okay. On an individual basis, organizational basis? Both.

Cameron: 38:15

Yeah? Both. You know, it's like it is like okay. So I'm like I I consider I don't mean any of this to be this none of this is disparaging to programs or other churches. Right.

Cameron: 38:29

Everything

Luke: 38:30

we're saying is is very much rooted in the church that we are here.

Cameron: 38:34

Experience here

Luke: 38:35

at condo ministers. Because they're I'll tell you, like, having ministered for some time in Chicago, it is very different than Chautauqua County. Yeah. Like, the things we are doing here would have to look very different if we were if I was still in Humboldt Park Of Chicago.

Cameron: 38:52

Yeah. Yeah. So I think that there's a value of against stacking a bunch of programs

Luke: 39:08

Mhmm.

Cameron: 39:08

And activity in order to essentially stack the deck towards someone's spiritual growth. Like, if we just get enough programs into the church and get enough people into those programs by pure value by by pure osmosis and saturation, they will grow. They will become disciples. Okay. Stack, stack, stack, stack, stack, stack, stack.

Cameron: 39:42

Women's ministry, men's ministry, adult ministry, young adult ministry, youth ministry, kids ministry, like

Luke: 39:48

Left handed ministry.

Cameron: 39:50

Left handed ministry, knitters ministry. You know, like, you you you get what I'm saying. Like, everyone knows the thing. And and it becomes like it just kind of feels like you're just chasing your tail and just trying to hit every single corner of sociological demographic in order to, yeah, saturate a ministry environment hoping that one of the bible studies you do, sticks. Mhmm.

Cameron: 40:26

And I think that there comes a point where the stacking of those things becomes too precariously tippy.

Luke: 40:38

Mhmm.

Cameron: 40:38

Because you stack them tall without any it's like second soil. Yeah. You know, like, grows fast. A person grows fast in that environment. Mhmm.

Cameron: 40:53

But then the rootedness seems to be wanting a little bit. Sure. What I feel like we're doing by going to one service is we're kind of like I don't know why I'm getting this imagery. It was kinda like we're kinda like taking a Jenga approach to our any programmatic or, like, vertical growth.

Luke: 41:25

Uh-huh.

Cameron: 41:25

We're just kinda, like, popping blocks Okay. Out of it. Yeah. Alright. Pop.

Cameron: 41:31

Pop. Pop. Yeah.

Luke: 41:34

This is a very anxiety inducing analogy camera. Sorry. Just saying it

Cameron: 41:39

as it comes to my head. And we're saying, alright. We're we're taking things away to eliminate any really any distraction

Luke: 41:56

Mhmm.

Cameron: 41:58

Even good things. Mhmm. Really good things, like a second service that fits more people.

Luke: 42:04

Mhmm.

Cameron: 42:05

We're taking away really good things so that we can pursue the greater thing that will bring, like, depth in the roots.

Luke: 42:18

Yeah. Mhmm.

Cameron: 42:20

And so,

Luke: 42:29

what? Did you just sing of another crazy night?

Cameron: 42:31

I I did. Okay. I really did. What? It's like I think it's actually the question what like, it's similar to one of the questions that I asked you when you first came here and we did the interview.

Cameron: 42:41

Like, would you rather fight would you rather fight, one horse sized duck or a thousand duck sized horses. You know? If you had to fight one, would you rather fight one horse?

Luke: 43:03

Not what I was ready for you

Cameron: 43:05

to say. And, the reason that I was thinking that was like, is there is like a die there's a there's a dynamic of would you rather we could say I probably could have just said it like this. As a pastor, would you rather serve a church of 500 people who are a quarter inch deep or 250 people who are 12 feet deep? Right. No.

Cameron: 43:50

And I think that our context values the depth Mhmm. The 12 feet deep, 250 people, rather than the quarter inch deep, 500 people. Yeah. And so and the reason why that we had we would have that conversation when it comes to one service is it is precisely for the reason that it is it is in transformative it is in an tangible encounter with God that our capacity for growth to the image and likeness of Jesus gets magnified. Right.

Cameron: 44:40

It is it is like, I I, was reading something something that Batterson wrote. It was an article. And he he said something he described revival as when you get decades and days. And, and like that, I that's kind of like the that's getting what you see in the book. I'm reading through acts right now, my personal devotions, and you just see, like I mean, they're getting in days what the church in America gets in decades.

Luke: 45:16

Mhmm.

Cameron: 45:19

And, and I think that the that the tangible presence of God brings a transformative power, conforming people to the image and likeness of Jesus so that the so that the depth that they would get in decades from programmatic ministry, they get in days in the presence of the Lord.

Luke: 45:50

Mhmm.

Cameron: 45:51

I said all those funny Jenga analogies and horse and duck analogies to say that line right there.

Luke: 45:59

Yeah. I, like, I I think your first way of saying it, I think, is I think can apply because I think this value goes even systematically maybe for us is we're interested in in reaching deep and wide Mhmm. Not tall.

Cameron: 46:19

Right.

Luke: 46:20

The difference being tall is very visible. Mhmm. It it's really big. It's flashy. It's exciting.

Luke: 46:28

It's accessible. You'll capture a lot. Mhmm. Deep and wide, most of what you see or you don't see most of it because it's deep. Yeah.

Luke: 46:39

It's underneath the surface. Yep. You can't see it as much. It's more spread out.

Cameron: 46:43

Mhmm.

Luke: 46:44

But that type of work bears the fruit sticks.

Cameron: 46:49

Mhmm.

Luke: 46:50

The the work that you're kind of doing is going to bear fruit in a in a different way.

Cameron: 47:00

It's what yeah. It's what, like, Leslie Dubigan called the open secret. It was like the it's the the deep and wide is like the open secret. It's it's not a secret, but, like, everything's under the surface. It's actually secret.

Cameron: 47:15

You know?

Luke: 47:16

Exactly. And you were talking about programmatic ministry. And, like, the thing is is, well, if I start coming to this church because, like, oh, like, they got a Dungeons and Dragons theology ministry. I'm going to that. Mhmm.

Cameron: 47:30

Because

Luke: 47:30

that makes me really excited, and that's my, like, thing.

Cameron: 47:33

Mhmm.

Luke: 47:34

And then one day, your guy budget cuts or whatever, and we're done with that ministry.

Cameron: 47:39

Yeah.

Luke: 47:40

Well, I'm not gonna be here anymore.

Cameron: 47:42

Yeah.

Luke: 47:42

And you see that a lot with things that are kind of built tall is

Cameron: 47:49

falls away. And you actually see it, you know what? I see it, which which I think is kinda like a disturbing trend, is what I would call or consider a la carte ministry. We go there for the preaching. We go to that church for the men's ministry.

Cameron: 48:08

We go to that. We send our kids to that church for the youth ministry, but we really love the women's ministry at that church. So we just a la carte things, and and, like, it becomes like a well, like, what this is not a buff like, this is not a buffet

Luke: 48:31

Mhmm.

Cameron: 48:32

But it's just grabbing at whatever program at each specific location works for me. I think it's just a really shaky foundation and a really dangerous way to look at engagement in the body.

Luke: 48:50

See, I wasn't initially thinking about that in like a completely negative format, honestly.

Cameron: 48:56

Mhmm.

Luke: 48:57

Because I was I was thinking about I was like, well, I know that a lot of people do that simply because, like, there's some things that just aren't offered it. Like like, we're our context, we don't have, like, a lot of churches that are huge. No. Like, we're not, you know, we're not in the suburbs of some metropolitan city.

Cameron: 49:19

Biggest church in our county, in two counties, is, like, 400 people.

Luke: 49:23

Right. And that's, like, I know people that would consider that very small. Right. Mhmm. And and so, like, you know, not every church is gonna be able to offer like, there's so many people who will, you know, say, well, Pastor Pruitt, could we do this, or could you offer this?

Luke: 49:44

And I'm just like, if I had the capacity, I would.

Cameron: 49:48

Mhmm.

Luke: 49:48

I don't I don't have the capacity, or I don't have the people, or just don't have the or that's just not where our focus is right now because we gotta focus on this other thing.

Cameron: 49:57

Mhmm.

Luke: 49:59

And so, I was kind of thinking, like, well, it's not necessarily a bad thing to to have a more ecumenical approach to, you know, well, you go here for this and there for that in a but I wasn't thinking in, like, an an extreme, though, necessarily, in a degree into which that you're not known anywhere.

Cameron: 50:22

Yeah. That's that's my I I'm all for ecumenism, ecumenicism, and ecumenical spirit. I'm all for that.

Luke: 50:33

SAT word. Yes.

Cameron: 50:35

I think it's I think it's great. I encourage people to come from other churches to our ministries here if we're if they're good. I encourage our people to go to other ministries at other churches if they're good. There is a lot of benefit in that, but I think the danger of it is that we we run the risk of creating a we we run the risk of creating a transient community within our own community Mhmm. That has no actual rootedness, has very it's very skeptical as to whether or not there's any pastoral leadership over that person or authority.

Luke: 51:24

Right.

Cameron: 51:25

Or if they're known Mhmm. At any place or giving or serving or it just becomes a, I think, a really a lot of a lot of questions Yeah. Kinda rise up in me about it. So I don't think it's it's not universally a bad thing, but I think it has the potential to be really, troubling. And I'm curious as to I'm curious as to what it says to kind of, like, a, a perspective of individualism Mhmm.

Cameron: 52:18

Within the church. Like, it we're just pursuing wherever it is individually best for us, not considering what our absence in a particular community Mhmm. Does to or steals away from the rest of the body in that place.

Luke: 52:39

Yeah. You

Cameron: 52:40

know, we we usually talk about we usually talk about our participation in the body when we talk about, like, first Corinthians 12 and stuff like that. Yep. But we don't often talk about what What our absence means. Absence. Mhmm.

Cameron: 52:55

What the type of gap that that leaves in the church. Yeah. And how that inadvertently is a refusal to serve others with the gifts that god has given to us. Mhmm. By saying, well, no.

Cameron: 53:07

I just come here for the preaching.

Luke: 53:08

Yeah. Right.

Cameron: 53:10

I just come here for the youth group.

Luke: 53:12

Mhmm.

Cameron: 53:15

So well, I do think there's benefits to it, of course. I think that there I'm I'm skeptical that it is gonna actually produce a a really formed disciple.

Luke: 53:29

Mhmm. Yep. I agree. Yeah. So we're going back to one service.

Cameron: 53:34

We're going back to one service.

Luke: 53:35

Back to one service. It's as crazy as, as it sounds. We're kinda out of time to kind of explore other, like, other avenues, but, like, suffice it to say, it's not because we we don't need two services. We do. We're preferably and creatively exploring what it means to stretch this facility

Cameron: 53:58

Yep.

Luke: 53:59

Or what, you know, what could two services look like, but in a different way. Yep. Or we're not we're not throwing too many options off the table. We're being prayerful and thoughtful about all of them.

Cameron: 54:14

Mhmm.

Luke: 54:15

You know? So we're not committed.

Cameron: 54:18

Mhmm.

Luke: 54:18

You know, we try I think I

Cameron: 54:19

think

Luke: 54:19

we, generally, at least as a staff, do a good job of not idolizing our methodology too too much.

Cameron: 54:29

Oh, I'm so grateful for that. Yeah. Mhmm.

Luke: 54:32

Because that, yeah. That can just be I like, when you get into a place where you're just like, well, this is what we do. Like, there was a church that I was connected to briefly in Chicago. They were a, like, satellite or, like, branch of a bigger church out in the in the suburbs. And, you know, suburbs out in Chicago, like, everyone's coming home for Christmas, you gotta have a Christmas Eve service.

Luke: 55:00

Mhmm. Big. Right?

Cameron: 55:01

Mhmm.

Luke: 55:02

You have these big productions out there, all that. Mhmm. And so they told their little satellite church in Chicago, well, you have to have a Christmas Eve service. And they were like, it's going to be the people serving and no one else. Mhmm.

Luke: 55:17

And they were right. Mhmm. And it was the same thing when the church I was serving, we never did a Christmas Eve service

Cameron: 55:24

Mhmm.

Luke: 55:24

Because it was only ever going to be us. Mhmm. Because if you weren't a historic church, people might, if they live in the city, go to a historic church on Christmas Eve. Mhmm. But most people who lived in the city weren't from the city.

Cameron: 55:40

Mhmm.

Luke: 55:40

And they went out to the suburbs. Mhmm. And so you almost ended up ministering to nobody on Christmas Eve. And so we never did Christmas Eve service, but this one church did because the church that was in charge of them out in suburbs just couldn't conceive of not doing a a Christmas Eve service.

Cameron: 55:56

Mhmm.

Luke: 55:57

The methodology, the value had just become so sacred Yeah. That they couldn't conceive of not doing one Yep. In the city. Yeah. Anyways, that's my little story on don't don't get too attached to your method.

Cameron: 56:12

Yeah. Slaughter the sacred cows.

Luke: 56:14

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Cameron: 56:17

Okay. Thanks for listening. We appreciate your your bearing with us in these conversations, your interaction. You can always we always encourage you to like, subscribe, share, comment, post it on your socials, whatever you feel this conversation is valuable, and we will catch you on the next episode.