Fasting & Prayer: Why we struggle to pray
Welcome to the Uncut podcast. I'm Pastor Luke.
Cameron:And I am Pastor Cameron.
Luke:And this is the Uncut podcast, where we have honest, uncut conversations about faith, life, and ministry. Well, welcome back, everybody. We've been last week, we kinda kicked off sort of a series of episodes discussing prayer. Mhmm. And we talked a lot about fasting.
Cameron:Yeah. Almost exclusively last week was about fasting.
Luke:Yeah. Mhmm. It was kind of it we didn't set out necessarily for that to be the topic, but that's what it ended up being. So yeah. I don't know.
Luke:I I felt like that was a really good discussion to have and something that's just not as often talked about.
Cameron:Right. Yeah. I I think so too, and I think there were some good distinctions, at least for our community here at Conduit that we were trying to make. And in particular, what fasting I I I think especially important, a conversation I don't hear many people having is the what a substantive difference is between fasting and abstaining from something. Mhmm.
Cameron:And maybe I don't know. Maybe more could be said about that. Maybe I was one of the churches that I follow, I saw that their pastor had put out that they were doing that the whole church was doing a digital fast Yeah. For Lent. Mhmm.
Cameron:And I had I had feelings about that. And have feelings about that. And not judgmental feelings. Like, I don't wanna I don't wanna be like I don't wanna turn What's Fasting into some hypocritical or legalistic type of thing either.
Luke:Right.
Luke:Yeah. Well, the thing is is that what they're doing the thing that they are doing is not bad or wrong. It's great. Right? It's great.
Luke:I think for us, it's just being distinctive with our language.
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:I think we just think that I I think that's just important. Mhmm. You know? Like, the way we talk about it. I mean, if you wanna say you fast from something, like, I guess that's fine, but like, it just what it does is it just waters down the language around it.
Luke:So
Cameron:Yeah. Yeah. I I don't and I I do wonder if it if it actually creates any confusion for people in the modern world or not to like say, I'm abstaining from or I'm fasting from. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe like, you know, trying to talk about a distinction where there's not really a difference.
Cameron:But the fast like fasting seems a little bit like it's used just as a verb.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Like, you can just fast anything. Yeah. And I almost feel in scripture that fasting's more of like a noun.
Luke:Yeah. It's a thing Right.
Cameron:That's done. Yep. Not a not a not a action that you take against anything that you don't, that you want less of. Mhmm. So, I don't know.
Cameron:It's probably only a conversation or distinction that people who think about this stuff too much are really having, or wanna have.
Luke:Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's definitely like I do think it's worth having because fasting from food has almost disappeared from the evangelical church. Mhmm. I think that makes it worth having that conversation.
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:If it was just like, oh, yeah, fasting is like a regular discipline. It's not commonly just like ignored. I think we'd be just like, oh, well, why are we making such a distinction? People fast from food all the time. It's just that that has almost what's has happened is that people are so willing to fast from anything Mhmm.
Luke:Except for food. Mhmm. And then, where the question is, like, well, are we neglecting something particularly important here Mhmm. By making fasting about anything but what its original and current intent is supposed to be around. Mhmm.
Luke:Yeah. I do think it's important, but it's also not, like you said, it's not like, we don't want to create some sort of legalistic, like, language police around it. Right. Like, we're not interested in doing that.
Cameron:No. Especially because, like you said, I think that people who fast from things like, or abstain from see, I'm even doing it. Abstain from things like, you know, digital media, or their phones, or whatever. Like, they're doing a good thing. It's not Yeah.
Cameron:There's nothing wrong with that. So whether or not we make a big deal of it or not is kind of our own issue.
Luke:Yes.
Cameron:But I think part of the other thing that I've been thinking about lately with fasting, and this had kind of come out as a result of I think the last episode, where like, we were we recorded that episode before I preached the sermon on fasting. Mhmm. Like, well, maybe some of these ideas are gonna come out in the sermon, and maybe some of them aren't. I don't think this idea came out in our conversation on the podcast last week, but, as I read more and more and more accounts in scripture of fasting, I was struck by just, like, the overwhelming the overwhelming number of accounts where people fasted together.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Where fasting was corporate. It was a group of people who were called
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:To fasting for fasting and prayer for specific purposes. Mhmm. And then I kind of reflected. I was trying to do some reflection on what the current, maybe just in the evangelical world, makeup of fasting is. And it seems to be excuse me.
Cameron:It seems to be almost exclusively, like, really, really highly individualistic. Yeah. It is not a corporate practice. And by and large. Yeah.
Cameron:In in practice now, it's not a corporate practice.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And what that like, I don't know. Like, I'm thinking about what gets forfeited? Why is it a corporate practice, number one? Yeah. What gets forfeited when it's only individualistic Mhmm.
Cameron:If anything? And who should call fast?
Luke:Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron:And and because that gets down to like the purpose of the fasting and praying.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:You know, like when Jehoshaphat, as an example that I used in in second Chronicles called, the nation of Judah to fast because the Moabites and the Ammonites were like at the doorstep, right? He was the king. Yep. So he got to call the fast type of thing. Yeah.
Cameron:But I'm assuming that there was a prophet in the land at that time. Maybe there wasn't. I'm assuming that there was a prophet in the land at that time. There's probably a high priest. There's definitely a high priest
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:At that time, it was just Judah. But so just like, what are the what are the circumstances of corporate fasts? How do they get Yeah. And like, what does it maybe tell us about the way in which faith is practiced now?
Luke:Yeah. Well, I think this is interesting, because I would say that this is probably just a microcosm. Like, fact that fasting is mostly individualistic in the way we conceptualize and talk about it, is a microcosm of the way most of spiritual practices, spiritual disciplines, and faith practice has become in a lot of our churches. There's not very many things that we do, like, exclusively corporately, or like, with an emphasis of corporate. Other than like, gathering for Sunday service and the things that are in small groups, most things are really rather individualistic in the way that we kind of like address and talk about them, I think.
Luke:Yeah. So your first question is like, why has it shifted from being corporate?
Cameron:Yeah. I mean, or like when, or Yeah. Like, what do we lose Mhmm. By practicing fasting more individualist individualistically than corporately? Yeah.
Cameron:You know, like, what's the power in corporate versus individual? Yeah. So that's those are just some reflection questions or some things that I've kind of been reflecting on, you know, as we consider what would we call our community here to fast and pray for. Mhmm. And how often would we do it?
Cameron:Mhmm. And how should my own life of prayer and fasting be in relationship to a corporate fast? Mhmm.
Luke:Should I be fasting at least in many times?
Cameron:Retired today, we're both yawning. Should I be fasting at least as many times during the week individually as we are corporately? Should it be? Is there I mean, not that there's any kind of formulaic answer to that, but Yeah. Again, these are all just things that I'm kind of just trying to reflect on.
Cameron:Yeah. I don't know if you have any thoughts on like the why corporate versus individual, and what maybe we lose or don't lose, or Yeah. What changes there?
Luke:I think there's like, you know, there's definitely it's kind of like the same thing we kind of lose when we pray just individualistically. Like, there's something about being in prayer and fasting together. Right? Like, there's just there's more people involved in it. And, like, not like I don't know.
Luke:I feel like there's always particularly when it gets into fasting, you can get into language that starts to feel like it's God manipulation or like like like somehow, like, oh, this is the fasting is the magic button I push to get God to answer the prayer the way I wanted to want him to. And so that's like, you know, I don't you know, without kind of going that route, there is a relational component of saying, like, of simply saying, no, God, we we all want this. Mhmm. We're all unified around this. We do know that God does value and honor persistency in prayer, does encourage us in in that, and that he does respond to that.
Luke:Like, that he does have a heart. And so when we, you know, together, I I guess it's just kind of the difference between one of your kids coming up and saying, hey, we wanna go to Waldermere versus all of your kids coming up and saying, dad, take us to Waldermere or whatever. Is there is something about all of us being united in prayer and fasting, particularly around a certain thing.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:But I think we've also just generally lost any sense of corporate identity in in the church. This was like a a big deal. It was something that kind of was was having to wrestle with when I was in college because there was a lot of language around the need for corporate repentance, but a lot of people were very hesitant to say, like, well, I don't need to repent for that because I didn't do that. Mhmm. And the question is, is like, well, no, but like, were you part of the community that did that?
Luke:And does the community need to repent as a whole? And so and that's really difficult for us to put our heads into, because we're just like, well, I'm me. Like, I'm I'm fine. Yep. Why would I need to participate in this?
Luke:Like, just because, like, the community I participate in might need to, as a whole, repent of that. Does that mean I need to repent of that? Like and so that's becomes really really tricky, but I think we've lost that sense of corporate identity
Luke:Mhmm.
Luke:And solidarity of understanding that I'm part of this group. Mhmm. And like, the group has this, sense. Otherwise, there would have just been no reason for all of Israel or all of nations to, like, make these massive moves of repentance. It just said, okay, all of you individually go and repent, and, you know, and those of you who don't, that's okay.
Luke:But there is this sense of, like, corporate identity Mhmm. And doing something together.
Cameron:Yeah. I I wonder if there just wasn't really a a sense of autonomy.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:We've we've we've elevated our autonomous behavior to the point where religious cultures before us hadn't done that as much. There was no individual
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Person, lone ranger out there just doing it all on her own, that their that identity was wrapped up in, like you said, this corporate sense of self. Mhmm. And so, yeah, maybe it was the king who did something he shouldn't have done, but now the whole nation is called into repentance because of it. Yeah. Which is I mean, honestly, that is a difficult concept for even for me to understand.
Luke:Yep. It was weird. You know? Yeah.
Cameron:So but I agree that there is a fasting corporately seems to provide a spiritual rallying point
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:So to speak, and focal point for the community's, work. So if we were to call, the community to fast and to pray over these two things or whatever, it would it would communicate that there's unity, there's focus, there's togetherness that we and that we, as a as a community, anticipate that God will hear Mhmm. That God will show up, that God will move in a way that is is powerful. So, I had I have much, much, much less experience corporately fasting than I do individually fasting.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:But in the times that I've seen the church fast together, there's been there has been some shifts Mhmm. Even in just the way that prayer is approached Mhmm. In that time period or after that, or so, you know, I'm learning in that. I'm I'm asking God to continue to teach me in that, but it seems that the more times we can call our people to fast and pray together, the better. I don't know that calling them to fast more cheapens it.
Cameron:It's not like a you know, we've heard some people say things like I don't know if you've heard them say it before. I've heard people say it before.
Luke:K.
Cameron:Where there's a question of doing communion, taking communion more than
Luke:once a month. Oh, yes. Yes.
Cameron:Oh, no. We can't do it more than once a month because then it becomes less special.
Luke:Mhmm.
Luke:Right? Yeah.
Cameron:There's been a lot of theological rabbit holes that we could run with that one. But, yeah, I I feel like the same it's the same with fasting. Like, just because if you were to call people to fast weekly, regularly Yeah. Does not diminish the specialness of the thing. Right.
Cameron:Because we don't give the thing meaning Correct. By the amount of times we do it or don't do it. Yep. It has meaning all on its own. Yes.
Cameron:And the meaning is good. Mhmm. And so, the more you do it,
Luke:the gooder it be. The gooder it be. Yeah. Don't I mhmm. Yeah.
Luke:The whole like
Cameron:Why don't we go ahead and talk about that, Luke? I can tell you want to talk about it.
Luke:I just like I know that there are churches out there that like, sometimes they'll do communion once a quarter, sometimes just once a year. Mhmm. I know of those churches. I cannot, for the life of me, understand how I guess I can. I get I understand.
Luke:It's like, we don't want to just it's a we don't want to be Catholic mentality. They do things just out of rote, and it's not meaningful, it's not purposeful, they do it all the time, whereas we want it to be special. Right? And so, like, by doing it less, we make it more special. But just exactly what you just said is that's because it's those that type of thinking of saying we need to do it less to make it more special is meaning that we're relying upon ourselves to bring our emotions, our, like, own spiritual intention to it, because we have to bring it all.
Luke:Mhmm. Rather than simply saying, yep. Regardless of how I feel today, I am forgiven, and this is God's church that I'm with. I'm part of the body, and I'm going to partake in his body, and that this is going to be nourishment for my soul, regardless of how much I feel it today or not. And there's something to showing up to that in faith, even when we're not necessarily like, oh, yes.
Luke:Communion is so meaningful today. Like, those are great and good to have, but there's also something saying, showing up and proclaiming and living a truth regardless of how today feels.
Cameron:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I I think it was a college professor, maybe it was one of my seminary professors. It was one of the professors I had somewhere down the line.
Cameron:It was a seminary professor. Yeah. It was, I remember the class now, who said, he said it kind of tongue in cheek, and it is, I don't know, it's not cliche, it's actually is true, but he's like, we don't bring meaning to the sacraments. Yeah. Like, the sacraments bring meaning to us.
Cameron:So it's not like our doing them or not doing them either negates their meaning or gives them meaning. When we do them, they bring meaning into our lives. They tell us who we are. They communicate to us Yep. Who we are, and who God is.
Luke:They they order us. Yeah. They give us form and shape. Like, this kind of came out when I was teaching and talking about pre written prayers. We got our Wednesday night class talking about prayer as well, and talking about, like, the use of pre written prayers in praying.
Luke:And one of the things, you know, because people are just like, well, what if I don't really mean that? Like, I'm reading a prewritten prayer, I'm like, I don't mean it. I would say, well, then it's a prayer of, Lord, help my heart to mean this. This is a prayer of how I want my heart to be formed. Mhmm.
Luke:I want to try and aspire towards this, and this is me moving my heart one degree towards that. And I think the same is when it comes to the sacraments, is that it's as much about forming you, and bringing you to that place, not you trying to make the sacrament into something. It is that thing, and it's All on its own. All on its own. Mhmm.
Luke:Whether you recognize it or not, and it's trying to form you into what Christ has called us to be. So, yes, I am not I am not one who thinks that we need to do these things, because, like, you just you wouldn't most Christians wouldn't apply that to Bible reading. Mhmm. Right? Oh, read your Bible less.
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:Because you want it to be really meaningful at the times you Yeah. Like and anybody who, like you know that, like, Bible reading is not more meaningful the less you do it. Yeah. Like, if you're, okay, this is the first time I've opened my bible in a long time, you crack it open, you're gonna be just like, what am I doing? Right.
Luke:It is something that like, grows and becomes more vibrant the more you do it. And most of Christian tradition has shown us to say that Christians have regularly fasted once or twice a week for a very long time. Forever.
Cameron:Yeah. Since there's been Christians.
Luke:Yep. Or Jews. Or Jews. Yep. It's not just a uniquely Christian thing.
Luke:Mm-mm. And so which was it Wesley that said something to the effect of, like, he wouldn't ordain a pastor who didn't fast twice a week?
Cameron:Yep. Mhmm.
Luke:That's like that's like Wesley. Like, he's that's not terribly long. I'm not talking about Martin Luther or No. Some ancient saint.
Cameron:That's really the seventeen hundreds.
Luke:Yes. I'm talking about Wesley. Like Yeah. It was so common practice. He was it was just like assumed that, like, if you're not doing that, like, you're not even not even gonna think about
Cameron:It's so basic.
Luke:Making you a pastor. Yeah. It's such a basic thing.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:But we've kind of lost that somewhere along the road. Yeah. So yeah. I think I think you should do it regularly, but intentionally. Right.
Luke:Right? Like, that's that's the thing is let's do it intentionally. Yep. Because it's not I think the temptation might be in our world, because fasting is vogue in some health circles. Mhmm.
Luke:And so the temptation might be to just like, oh, I'm just skipping meals. But like, no, what are you fasting for? Not just from, but for. Yep. And how are you turning your attention towards God in the middle of all of that?
Luke:I think that's just as equally important.
Cameron:Mhmm. Yeah. The fasting is feasting model.
Luke:Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. We
Cameron:fasting from food, but we're feasting on God's presence.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Feasting on on God's word. We're feasting on prayer. We're feasting on, yeah, meditation. So
Luke:alright. Well, what else were we talking about?
Cameron:I don't remember now.
Luke:Well, we we're gonna talk generally about prayer, but I think we've just about almost done a whole episode again on fasting. Close. Close to it.
Cameron:Yeah. I would one of the things that I that we didn't really get to in the series, the prayer series, sermon series, I'm gonna mention a little bit of it this week, as we close-up that series is the is persistency Mhmm. In prayer. And of the even Jesus' parable on prayer. I think this is the only parable on is this the only parable on prayer?
Cameron:I doing the persistent widow?
Luke:I mean, there's the one that goes alongside of it of the neighbor knocking on the door. Right.
Cameron:It's essentially the same section
Luke:of Same section.
Cameron:Parables. Yeah. But Yeah. It it's one of the only not one of the only, but Luke's account, for instance, in Luke 18, Luke is like, hey, The said, then Jesus told them a parable so that they would understand that they should always pray Yeah. Never give up, or told him a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up.
Cameron:And so then he told this parable of the the persistent widow Mhmm. Who, you know, knocked on the door of the unjust judge's house until he gave her, you know, victory over her adversary or whatever. And that parable, like many of the parables, often well meaning people will try to really stretch the details of the parable too Yep.
Luke:That's really important like, it's total sidebar. That's a really important note to interpreting parables.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:Is that you can over interpret the details.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:They're not it's not about that. It's about getting the general
Cameron:thrust of minutia.
Luke:Yeah. Because you're if you're like, well, who's that one background character in the parable? You're you're looking at it wrong.
Cameron:Yes. It's not the that wasn't the purpose of parable. But so he as a, for instance, you can this is actually a good parable to as an object lesson for that very thing
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Is that it becomes, okay, it becomes maybe easy to take the parable without the qualifier at the beginning of it
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Where Jesus where Luke says, this is what Jesus was doing and what He was trying to do. You could take that parable, and you could really stretch it to a point where it theologically breaks. Yep. Because, oh, the woman knocking on the door of the unjust judge, the unjust judge must be God.
Luke:Yeah. God is an unjust
Cameron:God is unjust, and he just wants us to annoy him. Right.
Luke:God's this angry guy.
Cameron:Until he finally is like, fine. I'll do what you say.
Luke:Yeah. He's reluctant.
Luke:Right. But that's not But you miss the whole ending explanation of the passage when you do Right.
Cameron:And so the parable can be stretched too far, and that, if you read the parable closely, it's clear that God and the unjust judge are different people.
Luke:Yes. Actually, there's no really, there's no real that's one of the things, is like a lot of times, parables have like, the characters can be analogous for certain individuals. One's God, one's Israel, or something like that. But in this one, it's just actually a story that stands on its own. Mhmm.
Luke:It's almost a fable in a sense, more than a parable in the way that the other ones are a little bit.
Cameron:Yeah. I mean, because, yeah, Jesus flat out says, there was an unjust God who did not fear God. Yes. Or unjust judge who did not fear God. Right, and there was a widow.
Cameron:Right, there was a widow.
Luke:Right. Right? And we're not to necessarily we're to imitate the widow, but we're not to understand ourselves as how are we widows, Cameron?
Luke:Not the point of the parable. Right.
Cameron:And so without the you can take that parable and stretch it too far to where it breaks, like we said. Yep. Graciously, in the word, we have the explanation of the parable word at the beginning. Hey, always pray.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Don't ever give up. Yep. Do not become weary in praying. Do not give up. Do not give up.
Cameron:Do not give up. And maybe is it like Luke 11 Yeah. Similar Luke 11, where it's Jesus teaching on the Lord's prayer and then the loaf of bread, or the neighbor that needs something for at bedtime, we have bread.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And then the father whose son asks for a fish, we give him a snake instead. Yeah. And
Luke:That doesn't mean God likes to give snakes. Right. Right. So
Cameron:the I don't even remember how I got on this line of thought, but my point was to say that we hadn't talked about, or I hadn't talked about in our preaching series lately, about the importance of persistence. Yeah. And and we, I believe, have a shortsighted under shortsighted view Mhmm. Of persistence. Yeah.
Cameron:Meaning, well, I've asked like three days in a row. Yeah. Isn't that persistent enough? Yeah. And I just wonder, like, I just wonder what persistence really looks like in as like kingdom mindedness.
Cameron:Yeah. What is the level of perseverance, endurance, persistence
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:In prayer that the Lord is calling us to when we when we're in prayer? Is it like a so I I was reading a commentary the other day on Luke 11, actually, in this passage of scripture. Mhmm. And the the passage that says, ask and it will be given to you, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be open to you. Yeah.
Cameron:For everyone who asks, receives, everyone who seeks finds, and all who knocks, the door will be open. And and in it's like English version, it's like, well just ask and you'll receive. Yeah. Just seek and you will find just knock and the door will just be opened. Mhmm.
Cameron:The English does not do us a whole lot of favors there. No. Really like the thrust of the of the language there is impersistency. Keep on asking.
Luke:Keep
Cameron:on Keep on knocking. When you do, you will find. Yeah. So it it it within itself is a the the subtext is persistence. Yeah.
Cameron:And I if you take if you take that if you take that seriously, those are the words of Jesus. Mhmm. I take them pretty seriously. Mhmm. And then someone were to ask you, well, what is how long does persistence need to last?
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:How long does persistence in prayer need to last? I think I would be inclined to say that you that you pray until you get the answer. Yeah. Like, there's not like Until
Luke:you find until you answer.
Cameron:Until you yeah. Yeah. Until you receive. Until the door is opened. Until you find.
Cameron:Yeah. Which is not which is takes an incredible amount of faith. Mhmm. Just think about the think about the person who has prayed for thirty years for their child or their spouse or whomever to come to the Lord or Mhmm. Be free from this or that or whatever, and they probably so many opportunities within that time period to give up Yeah.
Cameron:In prayer. Just just to stop. Like, well, obviously, I've been praying for twenty nine years. Yep. And the Lord has not answered my prayer, but then I'm praying in my thirtieth year, and the door opens.
Cameron:Yeah. And so the point being, like, we're our timeline for fulfillment
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Is so much different than the Lord's. Yep. And we should always pray and never give up.
Luke:Yeah. I think this is a really interesting train of thought because it backs up into, I think, one of the biggest questions that keeps people from praying, or one of the lines of thoughts that people that stop people from praying, and that is, won't won't God's will happen anyways whether I pray or not? Like, it's like, I I that type of thinking of just saying, well, like, okay, well, I prayed once. God's will is gonna happen anyway, so I'm, like, why would I con like, do you I think that thinking seeps in, and it discourages us from praying. Mhmm.
Luke:What would you say to the person that's just like, well, Cameron, I mean, I I prayed for it, and like, but you know, I'm surrendered to God's will, and you know, I'm just not gonna keep, you know, bugging God about it, because I don't wanna be disrespectful. I wanna be submissive to His will.
Cameron:Yep. I would say that we have made God's will more formulaic than we have relational. Mhmm. And that the idea that God has a will that looks like a grand ultimate complex plan that weaves itself throughout history, and that every every twist and turn of history has been willed, and ordained, and planned, and executed by God
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Is not really, I think, what we see in scripture. I I I mean, I suppose you could make some of those arguments, but what I think is that God has does God have a will? Certainly, God has a will. That will, I think, is less about the process and more about the end. I think there is and what I mean by that is that all all who are called by His name will be conformed to the image and likeness of Son.
Cameron:All those who, God has predestined all those who have been called by His name to be predestined in this Paul in Ephesians. And so like, I think that God has a will to redeem creation through His son, Jesus Christ.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:I think God had certainly, was a will to create. There's a will to sustain. Yep. God does have a will, but like, does God have a specific will for like, this situation in my life, that situation in my life, that situation in my life Mhmm. That I am praying about?
Cameron:I don't know that I necessarily believe that or get on board I can get on board with that. I can get on board with that. I just don't know that I would hold on to that belief super tightly. Yeah. Because what is clear in scripture is that the Lord allows himself, even his vocalized stated plan, to be changed
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:When someone in intimate relationship with him asks him.
Luke:Yeah. Mhmm.
Cameron:So it would be like, well, Moses is the example, as an an example Yep. Of the Lord wanting to destroy the Israelite people when they were worshiping the golden calf. Mhmm. Moses is like, but yeah, but you don't really wanna do that. Right?
Cameron:Because you promised them.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:You promised these people.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And aren't you gonna fulfill your covenant promises, God? Yep. And what would the what are the Egyptians gonna think? Yeah. You're gonna be a laughing stock to them.
Cameron:Yep. And so God, it says that God it says that God relented. Yeah. And he and he did not do what he said he was going to do. Yep.
Cameron:So you could say, well, God's will, as stated from his very own mouth to Moses, was to destroy the people, and then through Moses crying out, God changed his will. Mhmm. Okay. Yep. Maybe God's will is not as static as we originally thought.
Cameron:And then you could just think of things like circumstantially, and maybe even logically, like, I think about is it Peter? Peter and James in prison. Mhmm. And it says that the church gathered all night and prayed Mhmm. For their release, and they and they were prison doors flinging open.
Cameron:Yep. Whatever. And so what exactly what exactly is God's will in all of that? Was it God's will that Peter and James were put in jail? Yeah.
Cameron:Arrested? Right. Then it also is God's will to have them released. Right. Because the people prayed.
Luke:It puts you in this place of saying, well, if every minute thing, and every detail that happens Right. Then God's just constantly undoing his will. Yeah. Right?
Cameron:It Right. It it It's like a cat and mouse game.
Luke:Yeah. Well, it becomes this, like
Cameron:the
Luke:it becomes the chess is it the no, no, no. The poison game from Princess Brides. Have you seen seen Princess Brides?
Cameron:I have not.
Luke:Oh, boy. Everyone leave Cameron a lot of hate in the comments about that. There's this moment where the two characters are in the he's just like, okay. Pours you know, they got these two goblets, pours poison into the two goblets, and then mixes them around, and then one puts and says, okay, you get to choose. I picked I picked which one I put in the poison.
Luke:I mixed it around. Mhmm. But you get to choose which one you drink and which one I drink. Mhmm. And then it's like, well, naturally, you'd put the poison in front of me.
Luke:But then if I had done that, I would expect you to do that. And so, therefore, I'm going to assume that you put the poison next to you. But if you knew that I was that smart, you would know that
Luke:I would figure that out, that you'd
Luke:put the point, and you just go back and forth,
Luke:and on and on. Right.
Luke:Get into this place where you're just, like, trying to do this brain game with God's will and His sovereignty. One of the things that was most helpful from one of my professors that he said is that sovereignty means that God is free to do anything that He will do.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:Not that God is like not that God we sometimes, we stretch the theological affirmation to mean that God authors everything.
Luke:Mhmm.
Luke:And like, to be clear, neither you or I are deists, Right? So which is the fancy word for God spun the world on a top or started the watch, and he walked away and he doesn't touch it. That's not to say that's not what we believe either. We believe God's sustaining and keeping the world running as well, and that he's actively involved in it and does have effect on things. But the Bible seems to invite us into this dynamic relationship, but systematic theology seems to try and get us to take ourselves out of it Mhmm.
Luke:By putting us in this place of where we're at odds with God's will. Mhmm. And God's will is at odds with His own will, seemingly, at times. Mhmm. And I I the way I just say is, like, we can make these affirmations that God is in control of all things, that God has power over all things, that He holds and sustains everything together, that He has a will that will be achieved the way that it's meant to be achieved, but we just don't know those things.
Luke:Mhmm. We can never know those things. So let's enter into the relationship then, and leave that because we affirm all those, and then we try and live our theology out of those. Mhmm. And you end up in a place where you just can't pray.
Cameron:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Luke:Because you're like, well, I don't want to pray against God's will. Right. Or whatever. And that's just like, Jesus never invited us into that. Correct.
Luke:That's those are the conclusions of true conclusions.
Cameron:Well, and so it seems like that God invites us
Luke:to pray against his will. Yeah. Seemingly. Seemingly. Seemingly invites us into relationship to have a conversation with Right.
Cameron:Which is incredible. Like, that's an incredible mysterious part of prayer to
Luke:me. Mhmm.
Cameron:I was like, okay, who am I? But I'm we're we're we're definitely more important to God than we think we are.
Luke:Yep. Yep. Okay.
Cameron:Well, there's another one on prayer and fasting and something. Something else. Something else for you. Yep. Hope you enjoyed it.
Cameron:As always, please comment, like, subscribe, share wherever you can, and we'll see you on the next one.
