The Asbury Revival: Bonus Episode

Welcome to the Uncut Podcast.

I'm Pastor Luke and this is Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut Podcast where we try to have uncut, honest conversations about,

faith, life, Bible, ministry, and all the things that we find that are interesting,

want to talk about, feel like would benefit other people for us to have conversations

around. Today we're going to be talking about the Asbury Revival, which I guess is that

what it's being called? I guess it depends on who you ask. So maybe some context for

if there's anybody out there who hasn't heard, Cameron, would you be able to give a quick

synopsis of what it is that we're talking about? Sure. Well, quick, probably not. But

So if you say Asbury Revival and you go to Google and you put in Asbury Revival, you

could probably get a few different kickbacks because there was an Asbury Revival in 1970,

most recently.

But probably in the world of current events, there is something going on at Asbury College,

in Wilmore, Kentucky.

Same little town as Asbury Seminary, which is a very famous evangelical seminary.

But what appears to be happening, or not what appears to be happening, but what is happening

is almost two weeks ago now, 12 days ago.

Yeah, so today's February 20th on the day that we're recording this.

Two weeks ago now at the conclusion of a Wednesday chapel service, which by all accounts was very

normal type of chap, you know, chapel service. There was no, no revival speaker came in.

You know, it was not, it was not billed as a revival event or anything like that.

But that at the conclusion of that chapel service, there was what's being described as just like an overwhelming sense of the presence of God in the room.

A desire to stay and to linger in the presence of God, to worship, to pray.

Students began to share testimonies of what God has been doing in their lives and both the testimony of their private repentance,

but then they're in open air in front of the whole chapel service, publicly repenting of sin.

And turning to God. And it has that service, that worship, prayer, testimony,

service has continued to this day. It has not stopped yet.

Yeah. So just shy of two weeks. Just shy of two weeks. And it's not only has it not stopped, but it's

spread to other locations on campus, other chapels, auditoriums, churches in the area.

And then there's now reports of it that the same spirit in other...

I think it's one Belmont University, I think is another where that the same type of thing is, is happening.

Yeah. So that's what, you know, that's kind of like. The topic. The topic. Right.

And if you are in, you know, if you're, if you're in the church world at all, which we,

obviously are, and you maybe you follow people on Instagram and Twitter and you're in the,

You follow people on Instagram or Facebook or Twitter or TikTok.

Yeah. Or even if you just are kind of on the, yeah, if you're on the Christian side of social

media, so you're following those and seeing those like, you regularly see sermons and,

Christian inspirational videos and stuff in your content, you've probably heard about this.

You probably have, yeah. And even if you don't, you may have seen it in some national news organizations that

have picked it up. like Fox News did a thing on it.

And then some more local channels have picked it up, say, hey, what's going on here?

Because it's starting to attract thousands of people from all over the country are traveling to Wilmore

to see what's going on, to seek to experience,

seek to experience what's going on.

And, you know, some of those pilgrims are, I think.

Are going to experience what they perceive as a move of God happening there on campus.

And others, it's fairly clear, are going with an intent to discredit.

Or to call into question or to critique or to test the spirits is a lot of what I've seen.

And then to bring that back to their, you know, whoever their constituents are.

Yeah, their platform and their constituency. So it's certainly the word is out.

And I want to say that, well, lots and lots of people have been asking me about this as a pastor.

If I'm honest, I will tell you two people have asked me about this.

My wife being one of them and then one other guy that goes to church here asked, hey, what

do you think about this?

Because I have been posting about it on social media and part of the reason that I've been

posting on it on social media is because I have ties to Asbury and seminary and many of

the people that are posting about it are either seminary professors that I've done significant

theological work with than good pastoral or theological mentors to me and whom I trust,

as well as students on campus continue to post about it.

If you follow me on social media, then you probably have seen some of those things that I've been sharing.

Yeah, for me, like I'll tell you my exposure to it is I've kind of come by it

it simply just through suggested videos and stuff on the internet.

I've seen a number of different people.

Talking about it from different vantage points in different camps. I've not I've not done any.

Information seeking so I've not like googled. I've not looked or hunted down for like,

First-hand accounts. I'm not done any of that not followed any like I'm sure there are some live reporting blogs out there that are following the

the up to date stuff that's going on.

At least I don't know. I know that people used to do stuff like that.

I don't know if people do that anymore. If blogs are dead, but, um, I haven't done any of that.

So like, I haven't like, you have a probably, you've probably interacted more intentionally with it than I have.

I've simply just been hearing what other people have been saying. Yeah.

And, and similarly, I think I've only had one person ask me sort of my general thoughts about this.

Um, I think, but I think the reason I even suggested that, like, so we got in,

just for context this morning, we got in, we're like, we should talk about this.

Like, um, and the reason, one of the reasons I think we should talk about it

is because I think we have something.

I think we almost, like, I think we have some things to maybe say about the thing

itself, but I think we probably have more to say about the conversation that's happening

around the thing. Does that make sense? It does, yeah.

What i'm seeing is a lot of people like a lot of the content i'm running into is christian influencer is like.

Hi when to asbury i was like there these are my thoughts these are my concerns this is what's happening this is what is i think is good this is what i think is bad and then they're making several reels or poster long from videos and,

blog articles and those things are going viral or being watched.

And so there's kind of, at least from my view, I'm kind of seeing it from a social media kind of interaction, which is my guess,

how the vast majority of people are interacting or experiencing it.

Right. Because we're not there. We're not in person.

And so the only way in which we have to engage with this is through any sort

of social media content that is made first hand, second hand, third hand.

The spirit behind some of that is actually really frustrating to me a little bit.

And yeah, I'm curious as like, what do you want to go with on this topic?

Where do we want to? Yeah.

So I think there's a few things that we could talk about. One is the way it's being portrayed or talked about on various social media platforms by

various different people.

It's impossible to catalog every single one. I've seen some that have been like, I think that's a really thoughtful perspective on.

It.

And then I've seen others where I'm like, he.

Like my blood pressure goes up. Yeah. Just hearing it or watching it or like listening to the commentary

because because of its the commentary is very jaded or biased towards.

We will not this is not legitimate until I have to try personal Christian influencer have determined that it fits,

My model for what revival is right?

And I think that that's part of the question that we couldn't talk about is,

What is revival? Yeah?

And I mean I will oh, you know kind of show my hand to begin with is I And this is not to like just kick the can down the road.

Is that I don't think there's a real good definition for what revival actually is.

There are books and volumes written on the history of revival.

In fact, if you read the history of revival in the United States or the history of revival

in New York state is really interesting if you're living in New York state like we do,

is a really interesting read.

We've talked about that. We have talked about that.

Not here, but me and you have talked about that. Yes, right.

And so the question of what is revival is I think still an open question.

And I think it's okay to have differing opinions about what revival is,

mainly because we see no clear evidence in scripture from Jesus about this is what revival is. So I think it's fine to say, well, my

definition or understanding of revival is a significant, let's say a significant

harvest in terms of people's personal salvation who at one time did not believe

or express faith in Jesus Christ and now do.

So we like what you would classically see as like Billy Graham, crusade type revival, you know.

So comes in, proclaims the gospel.

And for a number of factors involved, you know, like thousands, hundreds, whatever the number would be,

come to express faith in Jesus Christ,

and have, surrender their life and repent of their sin and turn to Jesus by faith.

And it happens on a semi-large, either numerical or geographical scale.

Would you add time to that?

What do you mean? Like, let's say you have just like a powerful meeting and number of people. OK.

Right? Does it need to be a multi-day, multi-thing to be classified as a revival?

I think that's an interesting question. To this definition, you're kind of building,

is there a time component to kind of fit maybe the, because what I hear you describing

is the classical understanding of revival. Is there a time component to that?

Definition. I don't think so. Okay. I doesn't really feel like that. So you could have a single night of revival,

Yeah, because like when we live in the kingdom of darkness, which we do,

right when we live in the kingdom of darkness any moment of extraordinary like repentance and salvation is.

It's like it is a reviving of The work of the Spirit of God amongst us, you know,

Would you add in addition, you're emphasizing, with that definition, you're emphasizing the.

Salvific coming to Christ, committing, praying the prayer, like that, whatever,

however we want to talk about that. Would you include the like renewal of religious

Fervor. Fervor. Yes. Right? Like, so like, uh, cause I think that would be, at least,

my up from what I know of the Asbury revival as what is happening now is mostly limited

to existing Christians. Correct. Partly by its nature of happening on a Christian Bible

seminary college campus. So that's almost entirely either like recommitments or a re-understanding

a renewal of faith, but not necessarily a outpouring of new Christians, to my knowledge.

Right. which is why I say, like, I don't think.

The definition of revival remains in flux, you know, because in a situation like this,

it's what's happening at Asbury now. And even what happened in 1970 at Asbury is not so much,

like you said, Billy Graham in a big stadium, lots of you bring on your non-Christian friends,

you know, hopefully Jesus will meet with them there or they will respond to the call that Jesus

places on their heart. But what seems to be happening at Asbury is that, like you said,

those who have already expressed faith in Jesus Christ to some degree in most cases, right? We

don't, I don't, we don't know the situation. Right. I know there were people in my,

that I went to call it Bible college sat in theology classes with who did not know Jesus.

That happens. Sure. But it seems to be a movement, not of first time salvation,

But it seems to be a movement where like the awe of God, the holiness of God, the glory of God.

Has been renewed in their hearts and minds and lives in that moment. And they are responding,

with worship and they are responding with repentance. Because you know, you don't just

just repent once, right? You repent daily. They're responding with word of testimony.

What has God done for me? How is he setting me free? What am I repenting of? And it is,

I will say for lack of a better term, self-contained within the Christian community and not spreading

into like calls for salvation for those who don't believe.

Right.

We pray and hope one affects the other, right? And I think that's where even Asbury, even now,

is moving in the direction where they're beginning to say, we're creating a stop essentially to the.

Practice of renewal or revival that is happening on campus with the intentionality of taking

what's happening and moving out on mission, which is part of their institution's core values.

And so maybe it morphs from an upwelling of worship in a Christian context to now a push

in mission into the world, which hello, that's the church. That's the church.

So while I understand to some degree some people going down to Asbury with the intent of discerning

the spirits, testing the spirits, what's going on, I think a lot of what is happening is

is presupposing a certain model or format of what revival is or isn't, looks like or doesn't look like.

And then if it doesn't, what's happening doesn't fit into the already presupposed model, then,

automatically it's illegitimate.

It's false. It's overly emotional. Which I think is- Or it's contrived.

Or it's contrived. Yeah.

I, I, to be honest with you, I have a really hard time understanding the mindset that a

follower of Jesus would have to get themselves into to look at what's happening and to read,

pretty much all of the firsthand accounts of it and to say, well, this is not, this isn't a good thing.

Yeah. like, listen, 12 days of uninterrupted worship.

Can we just call that good?

I mean- Like, can we call it great? Yeah, can we? What if it, as if worship is supposed to be unemotional.

Oh. As if it's like, not supposed to evoke emotion. Yeah.

I read the New Testament, particularly some scenes in Revelation where it describes the

worship that is happening before the throne room, before the throne of God.

While it's difficult to convey emotion in the words on a page, it is impossible to escape.

The reality that the worship that's happening around Jesus right now as we speak is deeply

emotional, affecting people's even physical posture before him. And so to even say, well.

I don't know that I can believe that this is true because it just seems all so emotional.

If you look at the videos, if you see what's happening, people are responding in such what

seems to be a contrived way. I think that says more about us than it says about what's happening there.

Yeah. So this is something I did a lot of thinking about several years back.

And there's two, right?

We're kind of coming up on kind of a traditional kind of, not dichotomy, but spectrum of thought

of like, you know, so there's the person over here who's maybe saying like, you just, you just don't get it.

You're just not emotional. Like, how can you not be reacting to the spirit and to God's word?

And then you've got this person over here and it's like, you are all emotion and zero understanding. Yeah.

Like, and, and show my cards. I come from that end.

I come from the end, like just my, uh, church tradition and like where I've been, and even just my personality type has always kind of left

me to swing closer to the end of being the intellectual, critiquing the emotional.

But I think something like to speak to where my own biases lead me is to say that...

A greater, perhaps a greater sin or dishonouring of God's Spirit than worshiping God with passion, but with little understanding is having great understanding, but have little to no emotional response to that truth.

Yes, preach that, yeah.

Like that is like for me to understand the gospel, to say like I've got this great theological

understanding of who God is, his holiness and what he's called us to and what the church is supposed to be.

But I, but I'm unmoved by it. That's a more dangerous spirit than somebody who has a very limited or small or like a,

a very small theological understanding and is very maybe emotional or kind of reacting

in an emotional way that seems a little bit more unhinged.

Maybe we can talk about the extremes of emotionalism and maybe some of the unhealthy things on

that end of the spectrum.

But I think right now the conversation has probably got a little bit more to do with

calling out the other end that is so skeptical of emotion that we're committing a sin by

understanding God's truth but having zero heart response to it. I could not agree more. I think

that's very well put. Just to say, you know, like in light of the holiness and glory of God.

If we remain unmoved, we have not encountered it. Yeah. You know, like you cannot, you cannot,

You cannot be in the presence and glory of God and remain the same in any way.

Yeah. Physical, emotional, mental, spiritual. So yeah, I couldn't agree more.

I think that there's a, one of the things that I have, and I think we should maybe talk

about the idea of someone asked me if you're going to go down, Cameron, are you going to go down there?

I do want to address that. But I think one of the differences here, and this maybe goes back to the definition of,

revival.

Which this whole thing has made me want to maybe even have a personal definition of what I,

give a sense of revival. Not that I would be holding to it or that it would hold any weight or

authority in anyone's life. Right, because we're not trying to set ourselves up as the.

Authenticators of revival. Oh, holy crap. No way. That's what we're trying to talk about.

Exactly. So, right. Like we're not trying to do that, but for our own selves and our own.

Parsing out and terminology, like we do have to do that wrestling.

Yeah, sure. But I think some of the things that I've been really encouraged to hear and to write

about or to read about is one that like there's no first that there's no central and charismatic

personality who brought the revival or who is currently the leader or the figurehead,

of revival from a human standpoint.

Obviously Jesus is leading that revival right now.

Jesus is leading it. But from a human standpoint, there's no Billy Graham's, there's no Billy Sunday's, there's

no Charles Finney, there's no Dwight Moody's.

There's no person at the center. There's no revivalist preacher who's coming into town and that you're buying a ticket

to go see. Wasn't advertised. Wasn't advertised. Which happens.

We could probably pull up old posters of revival night at such and such church under such and

such debt. I want to be clear, not that God's not showing up at those either.

I'm not saying that. I'm not discrediting Billy Graham.

Right. We can't paint with a brush.

Right. No, I'm not doing it. I'm just saying that this seems different than those things.

And,

So there's no like, there's no figurehead, no charismatic person.

Second is that the overwhelming amount of accounts that I've seen, heard, read, is that there is a,

deep sense of simplicity and also peace in the room. So even though what seems on the outside to

to be an emotional response of a bunch of young people.

Which I hope by my tone, everyone can tell, I think is absolute garbage to say that.

These are future ministry leaders. These are the people who are gonna be God willing,

leading in the kingdom.

This is happening at a Christian college.

People study the Bible and theology.

So that there's, it seems to be like a deep sense of peace.

So like that the spirit of God has settled upon that place and brought people both the peace and the freedom,

to worship in a simple way.

Relatively, if you watch any of the videos, relatively acoustically.

Yep. There's no big bands, there's no lights. No, no haze.

No, I don't even know that there's like that they're projecting lyrics.

Yeah, I didn't see any. I haven't seen any.

Yeah. Just that they're just, they're, they're just worshiping like out of an organic

sense of like, God is here, we're, we're experiencing him.

Um, and so I think those are the things that are most, I don't want to say most

intriguing to me, but are very intriguing to me about what's happening there.

Let me speak of something unique.

Unique to our culture at least. Yeah. I mean maybe not that's true. Maybe not

unique to the heart of worship. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But certainly unique to the

practice of worship as we experience it most times. Yeah. Unique to what happens

on a normal Sunday. Yep, absolutely unique. And it's causing in me.

Some questions personally of like, Lord, how is my, how, how does my leadership affect or not affect at all the, for lack of a better term, I'll call it the spirit of revival that comes to a place or a group of people or a congregation. Yeah.

So it's really like for me, it's saying I would love to have conversations with the,

leaders at Asbury. Yeah.

Who have obviously experienced this more than once, that an institution has experienced

it more than once and say, and ask them, what is it that you feel are the things that are,

consistently producing this in your midst?

Obviously, I know that someone of what they would respond with is prayer.

We pray regularly for revival. And you're going to get no argument with me about that.

Pray for revival, pray for revival, pray for revival.

I wonder what kind of revival they pray for though, or if they just pray in general.

Like, they pray for a revival of worship among those who have already expressed faith in

Jesus Christ or they pray for a revival of like the salvation of souls or what do they

pray for? What are they praying for? Another question I would like to ask them is like,

what is the, what are the leadership cultural values that you're leading with that have.

Not only allowed what's happening to happen, but to support it on an ongoing basis.

I mean, for goodness sakes, they've canceled classes for 12 days.

Yeah, this is an institution of higher learning. Right. And I get it right.

They are they're they're preparing Christian leaders. And so why? How could they not?

Yeah. But like, like, I went to I went to a Bible college. There's also degree requirements.

Yeah, I got to write that paper. Right. Is everyone going to have to stay an extra 12 days,

at the end of the semester to hit course requirements to get accreditation?

It's just interesting questions for me. It's like, how do you lead?

How do you, as leaders of an institution, how do you lead in a place, recognize,

when God is doing something, and not get in its frigging way?

Yep.

I want to know that. Cause I asked that question to myself all of the time as someone who leads worship as a pastor is like,

how do I make sure that I'm hearing the Lord, discerning the Holy Spirit's movement,

making sure I stay out of the way, but also at the same time offer leadership.

Direction, momentum, because obviously there's been leadership happening there.

No, because at some point, right, like there's another version of how this could have played out.

Like the Dean of Students could have came in and said, like, hey, like, really, really appreciate what you guys are doing here.

But like, you can't be using God as an excuse to play hooky.

Like, I can see and hear it. Like, there's a version in which that could have happened.

But there was leadership wisdom to allow for some chaos too.

Right? Because like, you have to be willing to allow what's happening.

And I'm sure that if we were like, you know, like if we were to talk to some people who

are behind the staff.

Like, yeah, they've had maybe like news cameras and weird people kind of showing up and trying,

to get access to different parts of the campus that they're maybe not allowed to.

It's probably disrupting a lot of the systems that happen on an ordinary day-to-day basis.

Rather than saying, oh, this is just too much and just kind of shutting it down so that

they can have order back, there's been a willingness to create space and to allow probably a certain

amount of chaos in and I mean that like I don't mean like utter like utter chaos

but like just like disruption to the regular system of the campus exactly,

you know I've seen pictures where they've been bringing in porta potties and food trucks and they've made you know hey if you're traveling in from out

of town and you want to be here but you have no place to stay we'll find a floor

for you to sleep on this is yeah this is the university administration saying

this right they have no obligation to do that right but they have chosen to undergo the pain

and the inconvenience in order to make the space for those things to happen.

So, Asbury University.

Leadership. You don't need any accolades from me, but bravo for like finding a way to lead in that and.

Just like getting it right, it seems from at least from where we sit, getting it right.

Yeah, I think, you know, just to share this at least from my perspective, maybe there's,

I don't know. I think there might be a little bit of an assumption that like, oh, of course

it's going to happen at a college campus and a bunch of like, like that's the area where

it would happen. Or like maybe these students are pre, they're young, they're, they're students,

they're predisposed to this type of thing happening. And maybe that would be used to be discredited,

but to discredit like what's happening there, just to kind of like, I would say that like,

At least from my experience, there would be several things that are just in the way of

it happening on a college campus like that.

And students, being a Bible college student or seminary student studying theology, studying

the Bible and going to chapels, chapel can feel like another class.

And there are, I guess what all I'm just trying to say and point out is that there are obstacles.

To this having happened here.

It's not like a, oh, it's the perfect sociological setting for this to have happened.

Like being a full-time student, having jobs and stress, assignments, work, institutional life,

like all of that does not necessarily make a conducive environment for revival either.

So I guess all that to just kind of say, like, I don't know.

I don't think that...

Revival happening was a foregone conclusion by any means. I think it's extraordinary.

I think maybe to close out that bit, I was thinking about just the general trend,

of people wanting to give their stamp of approval or their X, their thumb up, thumb down.

And I was thinking about the parable of the wheat and the weeds.

I don't know that it's talked about a ton. I don't know that it's a super familiar parable, or it's wheat and the tares is the older translation of that.

Jesus talks about the sower goes out and sows his field, and he sows this, and it up comes some wheat, but also up comes some weeds in it.

It. And he kind of, you know, the workers are like, should we go out and just start

pulling out the weeds, try and find all the weeds, pull them? And he's like, no, we'll,

sort it out at the end, like when harvest time comes, because they don't want to pull,

out wheat with the weeds, right? And the larger kind of like application of that being like,

there's a level at which we in ministry and as the church, there's, I don't want to say

that discernment is not valuable.

But I think there's a point at which we need to just kind of say like...

It's not mine to discern it's not mine to discern because. 100% there very well might be and probably is people who are showing up now especially who have disingenuous motives in being there sure.

But I don't know that that's my job to overly fix a bit fixate on worry about like what seems to be happening from a large.

Standpoint, something that's glorifying God, praising his name and reviving people's love for him.

Right. Let's just say that's a good and then let's not worry about maybe like sorting out the

wheat and the weeds out of that particular instance.

I don't know. That's just kind of my, I think that principle could be applied at large to this phenomenon.

And I think that would, I mean, if we were using that principle, I think it would, a,

lot of the conversation shifts to this like, is it good? Is it bad? Is it genuine?

We've made it trendy to be the arbiters of truth in a lot of ways.

Not even so much of that there is a standardized objective truth upon which all people agree

about and now we're just going to point out how it doesn't align with the agreed upon objective truth.

But that we carry around our own subjective version of what it is, of what truth is, of

what revival is, of what is happening.

And then we just, not arbitrarily, but then we just essentially cast judgment upon anything

that is not in line with that particular view, which is...

I'll say that. It's sad.

I think that parable of the wheat and the tares is a good example or at least a good

lens to view it through.

Maybe it makes sense to say it or to make this comparison or not.

You the question of, okay, I, someone asked for my help, financial help or whatever.

Oh yeah, yeah. And, um.

This could be a whole topic on itself, but yeah. They asked for my help and I didn't know whether or not to help them.

I said, well, okay, well, like.

Why not?

Why not? I wasn't sure if their reasons for needing help were legitimate. I didn't know if they had a job or not whether they were working,

I didn't know like whether they deserve actually deserved the help or not,

Or like I have these resources and you know, like God has asked me to faithfully steward these resources

and so only people who have met a certain laundry list of.

Requirements or circumstances that deserve pity. I don't want to just be helping the career homeless or something like that.

So what they're worried about is they're worried that God is going to judge them for misusing the resources that he's entrusted to them.

More than he's going to create judgment or judge them for not helping someone who needs help.

Now if you compare the gospel narratives, the biblical narratives, comparing the responsibilities

that we have on both ends. The call to care for the needy.

Like significantly outweighs god's calling us to manage our resources or resources yes right like like like let's just like take that for a second let's just imagine right let's just imagine a conversation with jesus and jesus coming up and saying someone.

You were too generous to the wrong yes i mean like how global could you possibly be cameron to help that person.

You got taken. Yes. I mean, I am so disappointed in you.

Now, I don't get the sense that that's the way that Jesus is approaching the issue.

Not that it's the same thing. No.

But the same heart almost sits behind it. I think applies to this situation of like.

Judgment for that or for renewal or revival or whatever is is However, you want to describe what's happening as Barry exists. I think yeah like.

God is I don't think God is too overly impressed with our Discerning or cynicism or cynicism. Yeah, it's not,

especially a cynicism from a distance. Yes. Let's talk there. Why aren't you and I getting in a

truck right now and driving to Asbury? Well, to be perfectly honest with you,

I've thought about it. My reasons, I don't know about your reasons, my reasons are personal and,

And I'm not exactly, I'm not exactly, well, I mean, just being perfectly vulnerable, I'm

a little ashamed of the reasons why I don't want to go, but I do want to go.

There's a sense in me where it's like, I question like, Lord, what about my leadership or what What about me?

Or what about this place?

Why isn't it happened here?

A little bit of that is selfish. You know, selfish and like, oh, I want it to happen here.

If it's going to happen anywhere, I want it to happen here. But I also understand like who wouldn't want to be, you know.

Then I think back on like, you know, kind of, have you ever done the,

did you ever do the Experiencing God Bible study by Blackaby that really like,

So his whole thing in experiencing God was like you get a sense of where God is working and you

go and join him. You don't ask him to come and do what you're doing. You see what God is doing and

you go and be with that. And so there's a little bit of like, well, I mean, I see what God is doing

there. Like, why wouldn't I go? So there's a little bit of that in play. It makes me want to go.

I want to experience that. I don't want to go to get my own sense of what's actually happening

there. There's been nothing inside of me that's said, oh, I don't think it's legitimate and I'm

going to go down there to prove that it's not. If anything, it's like I deeply want to go because

I want to see and experience and worship like that way, but there's something but like the.

The, we've been preaching about shame, right?

But there's a shame inside of me that's saying like, you don't deserve to go and experience that

because you have not been found faithful enough to have it happen here.

Now, even as I say that out loud, I recognize the voice of the enemy in that.

But it's probably the real reason that I have it.

And that even a little bit of it makes me like, not uncomfortable, like reading the

accounts are watching the videos but like.

Lord, I so desperately want to experience you in that way and so desperately want the,

people that I lead and love and care for and I'm giving my life for to experience you in

that way and I want my city to experience you in that way.

And I want to see people saved and I want to see people revived and renewed in their,

heart of worship and I want all those things so badly.

And then it becomes, but then it kind of morphs into like almost this like works faith, like,

okay Lord, I'll just pray more.

Yeah, what do I need to do? What do I need to do? I'll fast until it happens. I'll pray more.

And it's not that those things are, not even that those things are like that God is not

asking you to pray more, that God is not asking you to fast more.

But if like it becomes a bargaining with God. Right. God's not my vending machine. Right.

And so I would say why haven't I jumped in the truck and gone down?

It's been a mixture of those reasons.

So I mean, why, why, why haven't you gone down? You know, I think for me it's a, it's a general feeling that if I were to go down there, I

wouldn't belong.

Like there is a little bit of a, like, like your objection, a little bit. Yeah.

Little bit of just like, um, it's just like, I'm like, well,

it happened to them right there at that time,

not here. Yep. Not me. Like, and so it would feel, I would feel a little bit of imposter syndrome if I were to go down there just

because I'm like...

I don't know that this is for me like I don't know that God chose to do this here and not where I was at. And receiving that,

trying to receive that, like this is my pot, this is my trying to be my positive posture, this is what I'm aiming for, is trying to receive what God chooses to do and chooses not to do humbly as a creature of his.

Just to say that like the Lord chooses to work where he chooses to work in the manner. He chooses to work. Mm-hmm. Like.

We had service here yesterday yesterday was Sunday and we had,

service Preach the sermon. I tried my absolute best preach the heck out of that service

I can say that if that's I don't know if that's I don't want the theological terms. Yeah that is but I

I gave it my best. I gave it my all. I like pray and pray. I even like, my hope is that there's still that there are people today that are impacted by that.

I don't know. I think God did something yesterday. That's my prayer. Yeah. Right. But it didn't lead to revival.

Can I sit and accept how God chose to work through service yesterday and be okay with that?

And that's kind of, I think that's where I'm trying to get to.

That's where I think I'm aiming at a little bit.

There's also just the practicalities of like life.

And then also, I think if I'm also honest, another reason I haven't gone down there is

because like I said earlier, I am a closet cynic or a recovering cynic.

That is where my heart easily goes to.

My fear would be is that I would get down there.

This is part of it. If I would get down there, I would just be like, I don't get it. That would.

Be my fear, I think. Is that I would be like, not on the same wavelengths as everyone else.

I think that's a little bit, and then that would just be a like, a blow, I guess, in some sense.

I just wouldn't want to like, kind of want to be content with what God chooses for me.

I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, like even in this moment, I'm getting a sense of God's like grace over us both. Great.

You know, because I think generally we both expressed a we're not worthy.

Yeah, sentiment there. And I, I know for sure that's not what God wants communicated.

Right. And I don't know, I just get the sense now even in the moment that God is giving us,

God wants us to be more gentle with ourselves, He is gentle with us.

Not that God doesn't want us to pursue whatever it is that's happening.

Renewal revival, use your words, like just unhinged, unboundaried worship.

Or just pursuit of Him. Just pursuit of Him. We want to put the best frame around it.

Sure. Let's just pursue him.

Yeah. But anyway, yeah, I know I think it's.

I would, I would, I want to go down. There's obviously practical reasons why we can't, I can't also, but.

Yeah, we have a church here. Yeah. I mean, I got a funeral this week and,

you know, like I have my kids to take care of. Oh, Sherry wouldn't mind, right? Right.

She wouldn't. No, if I told her, hey, I'm getting in the truck and going down, she would be supportive,

I know she would. But yeah, no, I think that the conversation could go on for a long, long time.

I would say, you know, at least in this situation, I am overwhelmingly positive and grateful,

that God is showing himself in a significant way there.

I'm hopeful that those who are there experiencing it are able to move out mission and be movers

in the kingdom with significant spiritual fervor after having this type of experience

with him.

We read and we know in history like those who have been, those who were converted at

Billy Graham Crusades, for instance, and what they go on to do and lead in the Kingdom of God and the Church.

And my hope is that this is the same situation now, that 20 years from now we'll be reading

about this person's testimony. Yes, please.

You know, like that their own spiritual fervor was set afire at the Asbury revival of 2023.

So that's my hope, you know, and I wish I had a ban hammer for social media. I know, right. But...

But there again, you know, I'm just like, they're not the arbiter of truth.

I'm not the arbiter of truth either.

So, but I don't know when, I don't know when this episode is going to air.

I don't think we've decided if it's going to be a bonus episode or if it's going to

be a regular episode. Yeah.

But you know, so we don't know what the state of the revival will be when this releases.

No, we're just talking about it as it stands now.

Yeah. And like we said, today is the 20th of February. So I think I did read,

I did read that it's gonna be moving off campus.

And I'm not sure what that means for them or for it, or for what's next or whatever,

but I'll be interested to see what the next steps there are.

Yeah. I think if anything, I don't know, there's not much of a bow tie to add to the topic.

No, I don't think so. Other than maybe just that like...

Keep praying.

Keep praying. Pursue God where you're at. Keep praying. Yeah.

I think that's good advice. Right. I hope so. I hope so. Thanks for listening in with us. Absolutely.

But at least maybe draw a frame around all the accounts that you've been hearing or the

things that you've been seeing and maybe give you an opportunity to think with a different

perspective on what's going on.

As always, if you have questions for us here to deal with on the On Cut Podcast, you can,

text them into our mailbag 716-201-0507 and we'll be sure to get to those as we have enough.

So thanks for listening today and I will catch you on the next episode.

Music.