Israel - A Theological and Pastoral Response | Bonus Episode

Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke.

And I'm Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut Podcast where we have uncut and honest conversations about faith,

life, and ministry.

Middle East. And Middle East, oh boy. Yeah, this is a special episode of the Uncut Podcast.

So this is a bonus episode that's coming out this week in addition to the normal episodes

that come out on Monday morning. And we're going to be talking about the Middle East, just about like everybody is right now.

So Cameron, I'm going to give it over to you and kind of let you kind of bring the topic and some thoughts.

Yeah. So unless you're living under a rock somewhere, you've probably been exposed to what's going

on in Israel and in Gaza or in Palestine as a generalized area, the Gaza Strip.

And may have questions about that as Christian people. And so I was reading, I was just scrolling

on Instagram the other day and someone,

a churchy influencer type of person.

Posted a story where they essentially said, if you, it was like, this was like one day after everything happened.

If you haven't responded already.

Then don't wait a few days to respond because then we know you're just following

whatever the most popular trend of response is.

You know? And I don't often respond to people's stories that I don't have personal connection with,

but I did respond to that.

And I said, that's really not a very charitable perspective to have at all.

Number one. Nor wise. Yeah, I said number one, like you, I know of this person's platform,

they're not a pastor, so they're not responsible for a group of people.

And so there's no consequence to them just ripping off, responding or reacting immediately.

And that there's actual wisdom in holding your tongue to develop a response that's articulate

and as clear as you can make it

and nuanced and keeping your ear to the ground

to the people that you serve and whatever, da, da, da.

So before that, I had already decided that, you know, like, look, I feel like this is probably

a topic that people would at least like to hear some conversation on or have some conversation about.

But I want to make the record really, really, really, really clear right now is that

I am not a Middle East expert.

Yeah. At all. Right. I am not a... We're not geopolitical experts.

No. No. I am not a political expert. I do not understand the intricacies of the relationship between the Palestinian people

in Gaza and Israel.

And also another huge player in this is Egypt and Iran and the United States.

This for me is not a political commentary.

I want to stay in my lane here.

My lane is the Christian faith. My lane is scripture. And that's where I want to stay here.

And so we can maybe talk about, like I think it's important that we do talk, maybe we could

talk about a little bit about the pride of the person that must have something to say

say about what they know nothing about.

Oh yes, I have things to say there for sure. But my having watched West Wing once,

and read a Tom Clancy novel does not make me.

Apt to speak with expert authority on anything. I have my thoughts, I can have my conclusions

and things I wonder about, but expert I am not.

Well, yeah, and I think that that goes for everything because like, listen, I've seen a few people say,

I'm withholding my comments until I do some research over the next few days.

Yeah. And my immediate response to that is one of skepticism.

Because what research are you doing? Where are you just googling YouTube videos?

Exactly my point is that like you are reading news articles that have inherent bias,

you are probably picking and choosing sources that are,

Familiar to you right, you know if you're if if your research does not rise above

Above even undergraduate college level research. I don't know that you can call it research

Yeah, or if you're reading journalists who've never been to the area.

And skipping over Historic, you know like historial political scholars sociologists,

Jewish or Islamic scholars who are mired in the intricacies of the issues that's going on,

Because my perception of the issue between Israel and the Palestinians is I believe at

at its very core, it is religious.

It is religious.

And so I think that to abandon a position Abandon a position or to have a position that abandons all reasonable.

Addition of like the religious history of that area, doesn't, it will not give you a full picture.

It will present a very like biased viewpoint.

I think something that's also really worth mentioning, particularly up front here, is at least.

And we can argue how distant this conflict actually is in a sociological level from us.

But most people that are in our circles are not personally connected to this conflict in any way.

Right.

And I don't think either of us intend to be flippant about loss of life, casualties, impact on people's life,

like loss of loved ones.

Those are all significant things. And so I don't want to, you know, and that's,

that's that sometimes when we start talking, when, when this conflict becomes

a conflict of not just people, but of ideologies and then of talking heads,

like it's possible for the, like the visible evil and loss of life and and suffering that's happening to be kind of washed away and for the topic itself to become

a detached from human experience. And I don't think either of us want that either.

No, absolutely not, no. Yeah, the...

The horrors of war are horrors no matter what side you fall onto.

It's like I read, it's kind of a famous quote, I don't know really who it's associated with,

but I have a few friends that are veterans who have been in war,

and one of them posted a little picture yesterday, so the only people that want to go to war are the ones who have never been there.

Yeah. The only people that want to be at war are the ones that have never seen the battlefield.

Everyone else knows it's not a thing to clamor for.

But I think one of the things I wanted to talk about here is how the fight between,

the war between Israel and Palestine is as old as it gets. It is not a new thing. It is not something that is like,

it's not something that just kind of came out of nowhere even in our generation.

We're talking all the way back into when Moses took the first step with the Israelite people

out of Egypt to go and settle in the promised land of God. Back as far as Genesis chapter 17,

before Abram was Abraham, he was still Abram, God had promised the Jewish people or his,

at that point, they weren't the Jewish people, they were his descendants, right?

Land, among other things, you know. Descendants, land, the resources to be a blessing to the world.

In Genesis chapter 17, starting in verse three,

Abram fell face down and God said to him, as for me, this is my covenant with you.

You will be the father of many nations. No longer will you be called Abram.

Your name now will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.

I will make you very fruitful.

I will make nations of you and kings will come from you. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant,

between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come,

to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.

The whole land of Canaan where you are now as an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession

to you and your descendants after you, and I will be their God.

Now, this is not the only place that God affirms this covenant with Abraham at this point.

And the language is all pretty much the same, right? This covenant I make with you is everlasting, forever, right?

And one of the, I would say, probably the most primary aspect of the covenant that God

made with Abram was the promise of land and the descendants to fill it, a people and land.

And so we know that the whole nation of Israel came from the lineage of Abraham.

And so built deeply within their identity and existence as people on this earth has,

been the land that God has given to them, the land.

Take that land from them or for them to be removed from that land separates them from their religious

identity even. Not just their homeland, but their cultural identity, their religious identity.

Everything, right? Other nations throughout history knew this about the Jews. And so,

So when the Assyrians came in, what did they do?

They shipped them off. When the Babylonians came in and conquered the land, what did they do?

Shipped them off, right? They expelled them from the land of promise knowing the significance that.

It held for them. Now, if you're asking, well, where is like, are we talking about the same

area here? We are talking about the same area. The piece of land, which we call now the Gaza

strip was and is in Canaanite territory. It was just off the border of Egypt. It was like when

you're reading your Bible, the land of the Canaanites, this is what it was referencing.

It's this strip of land in the West Bank. And probably its most famous inhabitants in biblical

times were a group of people called the Philistines who lived there in about 1200 BC or so. As the

Israelites were coming into the Promised Land, one of the first nations or first people groups

that they came in contact with and that they were told to drive from the land.

Yeah. The Lord says, I'm giving this land to you, drive the people that are there

off of it because it is yours. And he told Joshua this. Yep. Right? Joshua chapters 10, Joshua's chapter 15. And Joshua.

You

Almost did it like God told him to. Almost. Almost.

He drove most of the people from the land. He killed most of the people, but not all of them.

And then significant portion of the story is the consequence of that incompletion of that task.

Yes, significant portion of the whole story of Joshua.

And then even now into Judges. Judges and the kings. And the kings.

And like the perpetual idol worship is continually tied to the Israelites picking up,

the idols of those they failed to drive from the land. Right, exactly.

And then we see the story followed in the Book of Judges through Samson.

Samson was in the city of Gaza, right?

In the land of Canaan. And then we finally see Saul and David come, and finally, it appears,

drive the Philistines, the Canaanites, out of the land, and famous stories like David and Goliath,

and whatever in 2 Kings chapter 18 and others. But that's not the end of it,

is that throughout that time period you see the prophets, both minor and major prophets,

prophesying about God's destruction.

Of the Canaanites, God's destruction of them, God's like driving them out, destroying them.

See like Amos chapter one, verse six and seven, Zephaniah two, chapter two, verse four,

Zechariah nine, five, Jeremiah 25, 17 through 29.

It's continued sense of like God is bringing justice to the nation of Israel.

Or on behalf of the nation of Israel against those who are doing evil in this land,

those who are worshiping idols, those who are pagans.

And so this is a, this is not something that's new to the 21st century,

it's not something that's new to the 20th century.

It is a conflict that goes back all the way to when a people of God, or the people of God,

the Israelites, were established through the covenant of Abraham. Yeah.

Thank you.

From... These are some of the most unpopular passages in the Bible. Yes, they are.

In the contemporary world. Yeah. No, people would... There's that, I was gonna say Marcion, but no one knows who Marcion

us, except for you and I. But there have been historical figures in the church who have been

popularized the idea that somehow the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament.

Are different... Must be different.

Because they can't reconcile some of the actions and commands of God in the Old Testament,

namely drive the people from the land, kill them all...

All, leave nothing alive. nothing alive, with the God of the New Testament. And they have a hard time reconciling that,

and so people have popularized the idea of like, well, God was, you know, God the Father was really

mad, and then he kind of grew up and Jesus came, and then Jesus kind of like, was the nice part

of God and kind of keeps God, angry God back, and you know, so that's a, you know, talk about

liberal – that has roots in ancient heretic theology, but also has its current expression

in some liberal theology and deconstruction and stuff like that. So, they're unpopular passages.

Very unpopular, very unpopular, but I do believe them. I do believe that God has given that land

historically and biblically and theologically to the people of Israel, to the Jewish nation.

And that I don't care about the worldly standard of what, who gets the land and who doesn't

get the land, where do the borders draw, where do the borders not draw.

I firmly believe that God had given this land as a part of the covenant promise forever,

the people of Israel, and it is rightly theirs. And so now having that as a theological base of

belief, you try to bring that over into the current iteration of the conflict.

Yeah. And there are, I, it's interesting to me in this particular conflict because I've

I've never seen such widespread support for Israel until this one.

Interesting. Every other conflict that has been in my recent awareness, even in popular culture, has been

like, well, if Israel would stop being so oppressive to the Palestinians, then they

would relax. Then they would relax.

Then it wouldn't be an issue.

But every single, almost every single, not every single, I get it, but most of what you

see now is we support Israel.

Like Hamas attacked Israel with no, like surprisingly, with no other reason.

And so- And I think what was particularly unique,

because like, even I remember in my news feed

a couple months ago, like I saw headlines about the exchanging of missile fire,

which is almost so, it's so common that it's almost not news between Gaza and Israel.

I think what is particularly of note is the involvement of troops in particular.

And civilian casualties and targets. Sets this a little bit apart

and maybe is the reason for its quick escalation as well.

So there then is like.

I've seen lots of commentary about like other political movements.

Other political movements within like the conflict like, oh, is Iran involved and is

the United States involved and is Great Britain involved and is Egypt involved and who else

is involved and what's going on there?

And I don't know the answer to that.

I think we'll have to wait for the documentary in five years.

Like that. I don't know if there is truth to those things. There probably is. I think it's beyond my

scope. But I just felt like there, like it, I guess what I want, if I could have people walk

away with one thing from this is that it's like, we should be less surprised about this than we are.

Yeah. We should be less surprised that the, and that we should, well, let me state it in the form of a

question. To what level of support should a Christian espouse or give to the

the nation of Israel in an armed conflict,

with the Palestinian people.

Are you asking me? Uh-huh. I mean, it's an open question. Yeah.

I mean, we could both kind of answer them. Because I think the common objection is,

is like, well, okay, they should go to war with them, but only go to war with the military.

Yeah. Let the innocent civilians out, right?

With the deal with that being the complexity of, and that's been a thing that at least,

in my understanding of the Middle East, which is like, is the complexity of that,

is very difficult, right?

You know, it's no, wars are no longer largely fought with uniforms on.

And when it's particularly religious-based, that becomes even more complex.

Yeah, well, and the reality is that Egypt has long shut off its border with Gaza,

the Palestinian, or with the Gaza Strip.

So Egypt, which is directly south of Gaza, is like, the border's closed,

and it has been for a long time. Like, you're not coming in here, right?

Israel's certainly not letting people in, right?

For them to go, they can't go north, they're landlocked there with Israel.

So I think that there is like safe passage corridors being planned, my assumption is,

for the innocent civilians who aren't-

Just want out.

Just want out, don't wanna get caught up into it.

But it kind of is like a how do you separate, how do you separate one from another and what is the-

Well, yeah, what is Israel to do when, if they're, which it sounds like,

determined to put an end to this forever. And do they have the right to? And to what extent do

they have the right to. Yeah.

I mean, I will go on record right now the thought of war really anywhere.

Makes me a little sick to my stomach. I don't like the idea of it. I don't like the.

Consequences of it. I don't like the seemingly innocent people getting caught up in the

the mix of it, but it feels a little bit like an unavoidable reality of a broken world.

A little bit.

Um, and so, I feel a little bit like, um, come Lord Jesus, to bring peace.

Yeah. Also knowing, from scripture, that the coming of Jesus to bring peace is also a condemnation

a judgment and a him coming to make war. Literally. Jesus will come to make war.

And not in the analogous metaphorical sense. He will come to make war with the armies of heaven

to destroy the kings and nations that have risen up against him in godlessness and wickedness.

And so it feels really.

It feels a little bit like compromising to take a hard line stand of like, okay, Israel,

drive them out from the land that is rightfully yours. I'll admit that even though I read it

clearly in scripture, I believe it fully, it feels very complicated to me.

Yeah. I think some of my thoughts on this and I think that we should collectively give each other

the permission to not be black and white. I think you can support, stand with Israel,

even generally agree with the logic of what they're doing, but you don't necessarily

have to agree with everything they do. It's not, I think this all or nothing thinking.

Is kind of a thinking that our world operates by, either you are completely for me or you are

completely against me. I think that's a fallacy. And so you can stand with Israel, but you don't

have to necessarily agree or condone or think that everything they are doing is moral or correct or...

I think there's permission in room to to hold some tension and even hold some

well yeah reservation and humility in our opinion. Yeah. Because the thing is is that

if you're listening to this you're not a politician. You're not a general. You're not

even in you're not you're not going to be called on to serve in this conflict

Well, hopefully not.

This is a very unpopular, and some people would probably even say un-American opinion of me, but you do have the privilege and the honor and the wisdom to lead a simple life and a quiet life, and not have to espouse your opinion on this. Right.

The world does not need your Facebook or social media post on this conflict. Right.

And I know that that's like very built into us because of our American history

and I do think I don't want to say I'm not advocating that you be ignorant that

you not form opinions but like I also want to release the pressure valve that

the entire world lives under every single day with the news cycle where we

feel like we must be informed have an opinion be on the right side of history

and be correct a hundred percent of the time and that we've all got little microphones and cameras

and we're our own news commentators all of the time and that the world needs my opinion or input.

Yeah. That is a fallacy. You do not have to live that life. You do not have to post your opinion

on the war at all. You don't have to share it with anybody. Take that pressure off.

When you shared that post that that person shared of like, if you wait, I'm like, that is,

so caught up in this modern mindset of we must try to be on the right side of history

rather than recognizing that very few of us shape history, and most of us are

passengers in the divine hand of God turning the page. And God most certainly

brings about His will, not always through.

Good measures. The rising and falling of kingdom sits in God's hands, even when evil rises,

and good falls, and vice versa. And so I think there's a humbleness that I think that we can

take as Christians to hold those passages that you say, and say, perhaps God is doing something

here. And we certainly do, as the branch from the root of Israel, like, have a special relationship

and should be concerned with Israel and ultimately Israel knowing Christ. Like, but there's room for

us to perhaps be humble and to not assume that we have to know or do know or can know everything and and be right.

Perfectly said. Well, we hope like this little short little episode was in some way, maybe not even clarifying for you,

but at least like knowing that there is,

there's a place to talk about it. Yeah. Yeah, that there's a place to talk about it.

So thanks for listening to this special episode of the Uncut Podcast.

Please like, share, subscribe, comment, wherever you are listening or watching, and we won't.

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